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Zach’s “breakout” game


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Just now, Smashmouth said:

Did you see Moore totally stretched out trying to make that catch ? That's hardly accurate and those type of catches are pretty rare trying to make a diving catch on a ball throws 4 feet off the mark.

First of all, it was probably a timing issue - it looked like Wilson expected Moore to keep running and Moore sat down on the route. Secondly, he got both hands on it. Call it what you want, it's certainly not a "wild miss" (the wording of the poster I was replying to). 

You guys are silly.  

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4 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Did you see Moore totally stretched out trying to make that catch ? That's hardly accurate and those type of catches are pretty rare trying to make a diving catch on a ball throws 4 feet off the mark.

Zach Wilson's ideal receiver:

Doc Ock GIF

Can dance, too, so also qualifies as a "Dawg."

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28 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

There were not 5 drops. At all.

They're actually including those throws where he wildly missed Moore but Moore managed to get a hand on it, including that one in the end zone.

?

Here is your "wild miss'

 

image.png.c2e8752cacb87c70cb8a0a5cd4ea80e5.png 

His feet haven't even fully left the ground yet when the ball hits him in the hands. 

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2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

First of all, it was probably a timing issue - it looked like Wilson expected Moore to keep running and Moore sat down on the route. Secondly, he got both hands on it. Call it what you want, it's certainly not a "wild miss" (the wording of the poster I was replying to). 

You guys are silly.  

It was in the vicinity but  lets just say it was not a good throw .

He did make some improvements yesterday but his accuracy is terrible and its still terrible in the short game where he still at times throws the ball way to hard to give his backs a receivers time to adjust to the throw or keep their stride which is very important in a league where speed rules. Its vary hard to adjust to a ball coming in hot at a few yards away that's thrown even a few feet off the mark they look catchable but they certainly are not easy catches

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Just now, Smashmouth said:

It was in the vicinity but  lets just say it was not a good throw .

He did make some improvements yesterday but his accuracy is terrible and its still terrible in the short game where he still at times throws the ball way to hard to give his backs a receivers time to adjust to the throw or keep their stride which is very important in a league where speed rules. Its vary hard to adjust to a ball coming in hot at a few yards away that's thrown even a few feet off the mark they look catchable but they certainly are not easy catches

His ball placement is his biggest issue and the number 1 thing he needs to work on in the offseason, but this notion that most of the drops yesterday were somehow all Wilson's fault is pure moonshine (Certainly not the ones being cited in this thread). 

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4 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Here is your "wild miss'

 

image.png.c2e8752cacb87c70cb8a0a5cd4ea80e5.png 

His feet haven't even fully left the ground yet when the ball hits him in the hands. 

slim that's a bad miss bud and touching the ground barely with your toes is far from what you describe. Moore has great hands and has made some nice catches but he can't do it all the time this catch is asking a bit much IMHO

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Just now, Smashmouth said:

slim that's a bad miss bud and touching the ground barely with your toes is far from what you describe. Moore has great hands and has made some nice catches but he can't do it all the time this catch is asking a bit much IMHO

We can agree to disagree - I wouldn't call that a "wild miss" and I would certainly expect Moore to catch that more often than not. 

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Just now, slimjasi said:

His ball placement is his biggest issue and the number 1 thing he needs to work on in the offseason, but this notion that most of the drops yesterday were somehow all Wilson's fault is pure moonshine (Certainly not the ones being cited in this thread). 

I agree 100 % its his biggest issue I think the placement however between what you are saying and what others are disagreeing with is somewhere in the middle.

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FWIW this is where Mike White is ahead of Wilson he's much more accurate and that's why the offense looks faster when White is QBing . But Mike Whites bad game vs the top defense in the NFL who beat up every QB they face was enough for White not to get another chance and because he was not the second overall pick.

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9 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Did you see Moore totally stretched out trying to make that catch ? That's hardly accurate and those type of catches are pretty rare trying to make a diving catch on a ball thrown 4 feet off the mark.

What this doesn’t take into account is ball placement based on coverage.  
 

It wasn’t a good throw.  It wasn’t a bad throw either, and it’s not as difficult a catch as you imply, but also not an easy catch.

The LB is buzzing underneath the route and if Wilson throws it to Moore’s inside shoulder the LB has a chance to deflect it. He can’t lift it over the LB otherwise he gives time for the safety to get over.  He throws it to the outside.  Maybe slightly too far, and Moore can’t make a catch on a difficult but crazy difficult pass.

Everyone wants to place blame on one guy.  If both were slightly better on that play, just slightly, it’s a completion.

Sane with the shot down the sideline a few plays later.  Moore beats his guy.  Wilson is hit when he throws and it hangs on him.  But it still ends up a 50/50 ball that hits Moore right in the bread basket. Again, each could have been slightly better and it’s a completion.  Both have reason to point to themselves.

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2 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

FWIW this is where Mike White is ahead of Wilson he's much more accurate and that's why the offense looks faster when White is QBing . But Mike Whites bad game vs the top defense in the NFL who beat up every QB they face was enough for White not to get another chance and because he was not the second overall pick.

Mike White would have made that catch!

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19 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Did you watch a different game? Moore's drop is at the  3:31 mark and was a critical play in the game (it was the play before the interception). Moore makes that catch, we are set up with 1st and 10 inside the 25 yard line and have a legit chance to cut it to a one score game. Please explain how Wilson "wildly missed" Moore on this throw. It hit him in the hands (not "hand"). Also, the one in the endzone also hit him in the hands (not "hand") - the announcers pointed out that Moore probably lost it in the sun. 

I get that you have some weird vendetta against the rookie QB, but you aren't being objective at all. 

 

 

I counted 8 times in that video that the ball hit a reciever in the hands, and was not caught. One of those times directly in front of their face. 

People can nit-pick over maybe 1 or 2, but 8 total? Cmon, that's not all on Zach. Its virtually inexcusable to not catch these balls when you're an NFL level wideout wearing cutters. 

The things that stood out to me are...

A - how many passes violently deflect off recievers hands.

B - the sound of the ball hitting their hands (it may just be me, but it sounds WAY louder than other QB/WR catches. 

I still maintain that this is an issue of velocity not accuracy and just how much harder Zach throws. It doesnt seem like the wideouts are accustomed to it, although Moore seems to be catching on quicker than others (pun intended). 

I think people can criticize Zach for plenty of things be it stepping up in the pocket smoothly, some shorter accuracy adjustments, or not getting rid of the ball when appropriate, but like you said, if one is being objective, this wasnt the game for those critiques. 

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3 hours ago, Ex-Rex said:

He throws 100 mph with guys 10 feet away. Has no touch on the ball and his strength was supposed to be his ability to make plays 'off script'. Where is that? Darnold had more escapability than Wilson has shown. No rollouts and throws on the run, no take the ball down and run....I don't see much "progress" and in fact, I think he is a bust.

his short passes and touch throws looked much better yesterday

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24 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Here is your "wild miss'

 

image.png.c2e8752cacb87c70cb8a0a5cd4ea80e5.png 

His feet haven't even fully left the ground yet when the ball hits him in the hands. 

That's it. I am done. This is well and truly the f*cking Twilight Zone I am in.

Are you actually serious right now? Moore was in 20 yards of space and he was forced to go as horizontal Tim Howard in a penalty shootout. 

I swear to god we're just flat out denying reality now to push this narrative. Pretending he didn't throw a wide open WR a sh*tty pass that he desperately needs to extend for. This place is done. It's over. 

WAR IS PEACE

ZACH WILSON IS GOOD

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

 

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Just now, Irish Jet said:

That's it. I am done. This is well and truly the f*cking Twilight Zone I am in.

Are you actually serious right now? He was 20 yards of space and he was forced to as horizontal Tim Howard in a penalty shootout. 

I swear to god we're just flat out denying reality to push this narrative that Zach Wilson is good. That he didn't throw a wide open WR a sh*tty pass that he desperately needs to extend for. This place is done. It's over. 

WAR IS PEACE

ZACH WILSON IS GOOD

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

 

You might be in the twilight zone because "20 yards of space" is even a bigger exaggeration than "wild miss" 

Well . . . almost 

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3 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

That's it. I am done. This is well and truly the f*cking Twilight Zone I am in.

Are you actually serious right now? Moore was in 20 yards of space and he was forced to go as horizontal Tim Howard in a penalty shootout. 

I swear to god we're just flat out denying reality now to push this narrative. Pretending he didn't throw a wide open WR a sh*tty pass that he desperately needs to extend for. This place is done. It's over. 

WAR IS PEACE

ZACH WILSON IS GOOD

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

 

Here's your "20 yards of space" lol

image.png.d3f27cb1e8b35a017bfc83bbecd70fe4.png

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25 minutes ago, BallinPB said:

Zach's best game of the season was against the Titans.  I'm not sure if we are even seeing progress.  

There were specific things that he did that looked like overall progress: better performance the first quarter, less short arms, better short passes and touch passes, seemed for comfortable, passed the ball around, is starting to go to EM, etc. 

We'll know in the next few weeks if he seems to be stabilizing in a steady overall upward manner, or if it is a crazy rollercoaster with this kid.  We maybe saw some signs though.

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2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Here's your "20 yards of space" lol

image.png.d3f27cb1e8b35a017bfc83bbecd70fe4.png

In fairness that’s about as open as you can get in the NFL save facing the Jets defense.  Maybe Moore could have made that catch, but if I had to correct one of the two, it would be a throw that hit him on the #s.  A good throw could be a TD.  A good catch and he’s down at the 23.

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1 minute ago, ZachEY said:

In fairness that’s about as open as you can get in the NFL save facing the Jets defense.  Maybe Moore could have made that catch, but if I had to correct one of the two, it would be a throw that hit him on the #s.  A good throw could be a TD.  A good catch and he’s down at the 23.

A TD? No. There is a safety behind the play. 

 

image.png.28a7e5c911d2d09a7ff621155bf2c01d.png

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4 hours ago, slimjasi said:

What does this mean? 

The Jets were 1-4 in games in which White, Flacco, or Johnson played a significant portion of the game. 

In those games the Jets scored: 

13 points vs. Patriots  - loss (worst loss of the season)

34 points vs. Bengals - win (best win of the season?)

30 points vs. Colts (but were down 42-7 before Josh Johnson came in for some extended mop up duty) - loss

17 points vs. Bills (blowout loss - probably the second worst loss of the season)

17 points vs. the Dolphins (loss)

This narrative that the Jets offense was rolling without Wilson is so overblown 

 

 

So with QB's not named Wilson under center, the Jets averaged 22.2 points per game.

With Wilson under center, the Jets are averaging 15.1 points per game. 

 

A full touchdown less in productivity out of our # 2 pick compared to a semi-retired Flacco, a 26-year old QB who hadn't previously taken an NFL snap, and a journeyman 3rd stringer.

Even when you think you made a really good point, you failed.

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

 

So with QB's not named Wilson under center, the Jets averaged 22.2 points per game.

With Wilson under center, the Jets are averaging 15.1 points per game.

 

Even when you think you made a really good point, you failed.

If that's what you want to hang your hat on, I can't stop you. 

I think I showed pretty clearly that the offense wasn't anything special without Wilson - which was my only point. 

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41 minutes ago, BallinPB said:

 

Trevor Lawrence is playing like crap.  We don't need to compare the two just because they are the #1 and #2 pick.  They both suck right now.  

It depends on what is being compared. Trevor Lawrence was thought of as a "no brainer" #1 pick. And I don't believe he's being wrote off (although I don't follow Jaguars closely). What I've heard is "he'll be fine" and "he's going to be a good NFL QB" and "He's with a bad organization now, he'll come along." The comparison is to show that Zach might be okay because many believe Trevor will be okay.

So we can maybe give them both a break. They both might be fine. They were both thrown into bad teams that need to improve and grow.  Comparisons can bring ridiculous arguments into context. And comparisons can be worthless too, I concede that.

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5 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

If that's what you want to hang your hat on, I can't stop you. 

I think I showed pretty clearly that the offense wasn't anything special without Wilson - which was my only point. 

Nothing special that was still a full TD better than what Wilson has produced.  How does that help your argument?

All offseason people whined that the Jets didn't have a capable backup, and all our "terrible backups" have produced significantly better offense than the # 2 overall pick.

It's important to note all this because when Darnold was the QB, people complained (and rightfully so) that the supporting cast and coaching sucked.  Right now, Wilson defenders really can't use that argument.  The biggest problem by far with the offense, when Wilson is under center, is the QB himself.

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Nothing special that was still a full TD better than what Wilson has produced.  How does that help your argument?

The full TD includes the game that the Jets were down 42-7 in before scoring 30 points, which is why I went game by game. This is the problem with stats and small sample sizes

The larger point is that I have seen several people on this board (you, Tom, others) say the Jets offense was "rolling" with Mike White/Flacoo/Josh Johnson - as I just illustrated, this is highly overblown. That's the point. 

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46 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Here is your "wild miss'

 

image.png.c2e8752cacb87c70cb8a0a5cd4ea80e5.png 

His feet haven't even fully left the ground yet when the ball hits him in the hands. 

I think you could get 10 different opinions on this type of play.  But again, maybe he should have caught it maybe he shouldnt have, very hard to tell how catchable it was, even in this still shot.  So, whether it was a drop is or not is debatable.  What is not debatable is that it should have been a better placed ball. 

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5 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

The full TD includes the game that the Jets were down 42-7 in before scoring 30 points, which is why I went game by game. This is the problem with stats and small sample sizes

Zach Wilson has had several opportunities to put up "garbage time" points this season (both games against the Pats, the Broncos game, and yesterday's game), and has mostly failed at every turn.  What's his excuse?

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Zach Wilson has had several opportunities to put up "garbage time" points, and has failed at every turn.  What's his excuse?

This is an interesting one. I don't think I'm too worried about comparing guys in garbage time. I don't think he needs an excuse, tbh 

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1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

This is an interesting one. I don't think I'm too worried about comparing guys in garbage time. I don't think he needs an excuse, tbh 

Then you can't dismiss Johnson's performance out of hand.  We're both in agreement.  Johnson's "garbage time" numbers are meaningful.  It's important for QB's to play well regardless of the circumstances.

If Wilson had put up 317 and 3 TDs in a blowout loss, people would have been posting boner gifs all over the place.

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3 minutes ago, 65 Toss Power Trap said:

It depends on what is being compared. Trevor Lawrence was thought of as a "no brainer" #1 pick. And I don't believe he's being wrote off (although I don't follow Jaguars closely). What I've heard is "he'll be fine" and "he's going to be a good NFL QB" and "He's with a bad organization now, he'll come along." The comparison is to show that Zach might be okay because many believe Trevor will be okay.

So we can maybe give them both a break. They both might be fine. They were both thrown into bad teams that need to improve and grow.  Comparisons can bring ridiculous arguments into context. And comparisons can be worthless too, I concede that.

Good rookie QB's can look good on bad teams.  Andrew Luck came in playing with the worst offensive line that might've been assembled in history and still looked good.  Granted he did have Wayne and a young Hilton but everything else in that offense was terrible.  

I'm not saying these guys are Andrew Luck or should be but I would think the goal is for them to be able to play well despite not having everything around them be ideal.  

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