ZW All-22 Breakdown

[rtnelson]

I'm a big fan of this guys breakdowns, but finally we got a clear all-22 view of the Elijah Moore drop/bad pass.  Time stamping it to that play for those not interested in the rest of the video.

 

[TuscanyTile2]

Zach was "outstanding"?  Was this video produced by JetNation?

[FidelioJet]

1:30 mark

People, including me, thought that throw was off - wide and high - when in further analysis - he put the ball exactly where it should have been.

6:30 mark.

Made me feel a heck of a lot better.  I'll tell you, that throw more than anything other bothered me the most, especially because he's been hitting the longer once nicely.- but it seems Zach put it in the right place.  Very happy to see that.

This is just young guys learning to play together.

[FidelioJet]

54 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

I'm a big fan of this guys breakdowns, but finally we got a clear all-22 view of the Elijah Moore drop/bad pass.  Time stamping it to that play for those not interested in the rest of the video.

 

@jgb @TomShane @Irish Jet

In all seriousness, take the 11 minutes to watch and listen to this.

This guy has been tough on Zach in the past...he's a Jet fan for sure, but he also knows what he's talking about.

[Dunnie]

This is exactlynwhat i saw .. even without moore running the wrong route.

Cant believe the dislike for this guy here ... he is the future and the truth. This video show why.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Sammybighead]

At 6:30, Moore turn inside receptive to just sit in that spot and get the ball. Zachs throw is either:

A) off target a bit but not terribly

B.) a miscommunication and he tries to lead Moore up the sideline so he can catch and run

Either way is fine but I have a feeling a lot of "accuracy" issues may just be communication issues and building rapport with guys. 

[Scott Dierking]

The thing that I like about that throw, regardless of whose "fault" it was, is that it was decisive and thrown in rhythm. Something we have not seen a lot of from Wilson, as he has done the old "college sit in the pocket and wait for someone to break free" thing far too often.

That gives me a lot of hope. Decisiveness and anticipation.

[rtnelson]

4 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

This is exactlynwhat i saw .. even without moore running the wrong route.

Cant believe the dislike for this guy here ... he is the future and the truth. This video show why.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


 

I can understand it from a franchise that has gone through so much pain and are still suffering from Darnold PTSD.  If Zach continues to improve eventually they'll come around. 

[Scott Dierking]

59 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Zach was "outstanding"?  Was this video produced by JetNation?

Don't get lost in the narrative (who cares?).

[Sammybighead]

Is the pass he missed to Moore in the endzone in here?

[oatmeal]

26 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

@jgb @TomShane @Irish Jet

In all seriousness, take the 11 minutes to watch and listen to this.

This guy has been tough on Zach in the past...he's a Jet fan for sure, but he also knows what he's talking about.

No point those guys are dug in the Zach is terrible camp..

 

it’s sad really when you think both @TomShaneand @Irish Jet wanted to keep darnold for a 4th year but can’t give Wilson a break during his rookie season. 

[maury77]

1 hour ago, rtnelson said:

I'm a big fan of this guys breakdowns, but finally we got a clear all-22 view of the Elijah Moore drop/bad pass.  Time stamping it to that play for those not interested in the rest of the video.

 

The whole problem with Luke Grant's analysis is that he assumes that the route calls for Moore to keep running towards the sideline. Why is one assuming that Moore ran the route wrong? Because it is man coverage Moore's route automatically calls for him to keep running towards the sideline? That's a lot of assumption on Grant's part. 

[More Cowbell]

I just watched the whole video and I came away rolling my eyes. You can make a narrative  to make anyone look good or bad. We don't  know what the route was on the first incomplete pass to Moore. He is correct that Moore broke off the route in man coverage and it appears they weren't  on the same page, but it actually looked like Moore made a good read running open instead of challenging the DB to catch what would have been a contested ball. This is not as bad if that was what it was. It is just familiarity.  The long pass to Moore where Zach had a rush in his face was a prayer. Moore was covered and we aren't  talking about a guy like Diggs who is going to out muscle the DB, Moore needs space to make plays. That said, Zach was great in the first half. I thought the light had gone on but he went back to bad mechanics,  poor throws, and bad decisions  in the second half. I think he has made a better effort in putting together  a complete game by starting out well but still needs to do it. 

[Irish Jet]

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Zach was "outstanding"?  Was this video produced by JetNation?

Nah.

It was the always unprejudiced "Play Like A Jet".

[Irish Jet]

Put it on mute and it really does highlight what a terrible throw it was. Moore did well to get a hand on it. 

[rtnelson]

4 minutes ago, maury77 said:

The whole problem with Luke Grant's analysis is that he assumes that the route calls for Moore to keep running towards the sideline. Why is one assuming that Moore ran the route wrong? Because it is man coverage Moore's route automatically calls for him to keep running towards the sideline? That's a lot of assumption on Grant's part. 

It shows that it wasn't inaccuracy that caused the drop, but miscommunication.  We don't, and will never know what the call or design actually was.  But the goal of showing that it wasn't Zach being inaccurate was achieved.

[T0mShane]

48 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

@jgb @TomShane @Irish Jet

In all seriousness, take the 11 minutes to watch and listen to this.

This guy has been tough on Zach in the past...he's a Jet fan for sure, but he also knows what he's talking about.

I like quarterbacks that don’t require Zapruder films to make me feel better about them. 

[rtnelson]

3 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Put it on mute and it really does highlight what a terrible throw it was. Moore did well to get a hand on it. 

In fact, cover the left side of the screen until the ball is half way there, then uncover Moore and don't think about how he got there, or what Zach might have been thinking.  Just conclude it was a terrible throw.

[Bleedin Green]

While it is interesting to see the All 22, for that play in particular no one is going to be swung significantly in either direction relative to their current thoughts on Zach.

The theory posited there could potentially be an accurate evaluation, but is also based on an unknown assumption that it was an option route, which may or may not be the case.  Even then, it's a question of what the options were, a comeback route to the outside, rather than the inside?  That would support the theory, but if believing Moore should have broken to a full-on out route, then it could be argued the ball wasn't thrown far enough out for that to have worked well either.

While All 22 can definitely bring some interesting things to light, particularly in instances where the defensive coverage can be seen as a driver behind certain decisions and ball placement, but in cases where there's a miss to a completely open receiver, there's little more to draw from it than going with the assumption that best fits your narrative, in either direction.

[Darnold's Forehead]

18 minutes ago, maury77 said:

The whole problem with Luke Grant's analysis is that he assumes that the route calls for Moore to keep running towards the sideline. Why is one assuming that Moore ran the route wrong? Because it is man coverage Moore's route automatically calls for him to keep running towards the sideline? That's a lot of assumption on Grant's part. 

 

14 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I just watched the whole video and I came away rolling my eyes. You can make a narrative  to make anyone look good or bad. We don't  know what the route was on the first incomplete pass to Moore. He is correct that Moore broke off the route in man coverage and it appears they weren't  on the same page, but it actually looked like Moore made a good read running open instead of challenging the DB to catch what would have been a contested ball. This is not as bad if that was what it was. It is just familiarity.  The long pass to Moore where Zach had a rush in his face was a prayer. Moore was covered and we aren't  talking about a guy like Diggs who is going to out muscle the DB, Moore needs space to make plays. That said, Zach was great in the first half. I thought the light had gone on but he went back to bad mechanics,  poor throws, and bad decisions  in the second half. I think he has made a better effort in putting together  a complete game by starting out well but still needs to do it. 

“This isn’t on Zach.  This is a miscommunication, and if anything I THINK it’s on Elijah Moore.”

Also the analysis at 7:25 pass to Coleman is pathetic.  Coleman is looking at Zach as he rolls out, and Zach throws it high and behind him.

[rtnelson]

5 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

While it is interesting to see the All 22, for that play in particular no one is going to be swung significantly in either direction relative to their current thoughts on Zach.

The theory posited there could potentially be an accurate evaluation, but is also based on an unknown assumption that it was an option route, which may or may not be the case.  Even then, it's a question of what the options were, a comeback route to the outside, rather than the inside?  That would support the theory, but if believing Moore should have broken to a full-on out route, then it could be argued the ball wasn't thrown far enough out for that to have worked well either.

While All 22 can definitely bring some interesting things to light, particularly in instances where the defensive coverage can be seen as a driver behind certain decisions and ball placement, but in cases where there's a miss to a completely open receiver, there's little more to draw from it than going with the assumption that best fits your narrative, in either direction.

While you're right about this, it seems clear that we can confidently conclude that it was miscommunication.  Which still isn't great.

Previously it appeared that everyone assumed Moore was just wide open facing the QB and ready to catch the ball and Zach just didn't hit him.  That's clearly not what happened.

Even if Zach was in the wrong here about what Moore should have been doing, that's still more fixable than being unable to hit a wide open guy.

[jgb]

59 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

@jgb @TomShane @Irish Jet

In all seriousness, take the 11 minutes to watch and listen to this.

This guy has been tough on Zach in the past...he's a Jet fan for sure, but he also knows what he's talking about.

Will do, thanks for the heads up

[rtnelson]

1 minute ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

 

“This isn’t on Zach.  This is a miscommunication, and if anything I THINK it’s on Elijah Moore.”

Also the analysis at 7:25 pass to Coleman is pathetic.  Coleman is looking at Zach as he rolls out, and Zach throws it high and behind him.

The ball hit Coleman in the facemask.  I definitely see how the pass isn't 100% perfect, but come on... 

If Coleman were more prepared for the ball to be coming he would have caught that ball and turned up field, most likely making that first guy miss and we're not even talking about this play.

[More Cowbell]

6 minutes ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

 

“This isn’t on Zach.  This is a miscommunication, and if anything I THINK it’s on Elijah Moore.”

Also the analysis at 7:25 pass to Coleman is pathetic.  Coleman is looking at Zach as he rolls out, and Zach throws it high and behind him.

We really don't  know because we don't  know what the route was. If it was a post, it is on Moore.

[FidelioJet]

29 minutes ago, maury77 said:

The whole problem with Luke Grant's analysis is that he assumes that the route calls for Moore to keep running towards the sideline. Why is one assuming that Moore ran the route wrong? Because it is man coverage Moore's route automatically calls for him to keep running towards the sideline? That's a lot of assumption on Grant's part. 

I don't' think it is.

These are cues these guys are taught.

It was once the DB's shoulders turned he's supposed to break inside.  These are standard reads.  

That's what makes this so complicated and why it takes times with young guys...it's subtle things like that, that need to be sure people are on the same page. 

Zach put the ball where he wanted to - frankly, that's the point that matters.

[FidelioJet]

3 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

We really don't  know because we don't  know what the route was. If it was a post, it is on Moore.

You're really contorting yourself at this point.

The kid played well, far better than I even thought.

It's okay...you'll be fine if he turns out to be good.

[FidelioJet]

5 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

We really don't  know because we don't  know what the route was. If it was a post, it is on Moore.

These are reads based on positioning of the defender.  That's what they do...

Grant has no benefit to highlight this.  It's not an opinion of his-it's a fact of the way it's supposed to play out.

[Darnold's Forehead]

4 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

The ball hit Coleman in the facemask.  I definitely see how the pass isn't 100% perfect, but come on... 

If Coleman were more prepared for the ball to be coming he would have caught that ball and turned up field, most likely making that first guy miss and we're not even talking about this play.

Whether he caught the ball or not is really irrelevant.  When he has to slow his route and readjust for the football, potentially losing his balance, it gives the Eagles’ LB time to catch him, which he does, so he wouldn’t have gotten far up field.

This is a simple throw that should be more accurate.  This has been a common thing for Zach that he’s improved on, but still has a ways to go. I didn’t complain much when I saw it because it WAS catchable, but I disagree with how this guy says it “wasn’t” a bad throw.

[FidelioJet]

27 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I like quarterbacks that don’t require Zapruder films to make me feel better about them. 

Nah....

I know you're a smart guy.  The kid had an outstanding game.  There's a reason for the all-22.  

Honestly, at this point it doesn't matter what you think - it's clear Zach is making MAJOR strides.  

I realize now, that you'll never accept him.  You're locked in.  Good for you I guess.

[More Cowbell]

15 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

You're really contorting yourself at this point.

The kid played well, far better than I even thought.

It's okay...you'll be fine if he turns out to be good.

Did you read my whole post? I said he was great in the first half. 

[More Cowbell]

16 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

These are reads based on positioning of the defender.  That's what they do...

Grant has no benefit to highlight this.  It's not an opinion of his-it's a fact of the way it's supposed to play out.

If it was a read, then it's  a matter of Zach and Moore getting on the same page, if Moore was supposed to run a post, then Moore was freelancing and not where he was supposed to be. 

[T0mShane]

12 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

The kid had an outstanding game.  There's a reason for the all-22.

The reason for the all-22 is to make people who think Zach played well on Sunday think Zach played well. 

[HawkeyeJet]

Looks like a Seam read choice route to me.  If so Moore is reading that high safety.  If the safety can’t get to him, he should just keep on trucking downfield because he has his guy beat.  If the safety had dropped underneath(not plausible here because no underneath route) the read is a post. 
 

The third read, which I think both Wilson and Moore both make is normally an out, but some teams run a hook as that 3rd route choice.  To me, that’s the correct read.  It looks like to me Zach is expecting him to plant the outside foot and break toward the sideline.  Instead, Moore pivots inside and hooks up and the throw just misses.  I do not know the correct route, that’s my best guess though.  I definitely think it’s more of a slight misstep in knowing what each other is going to do then an arrant throw.

 

[rtnelson]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The reason for the all-22 is to make people who think Zach played well on Sunday think Zach played well. 

And for those that use feelings instead of tape to shove up their bum.

[Scott Dierking]

6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The reason for the all-22 is to make people who think Zach played well on Sunday think Zach played well. 

Never in the history of the world, has there been such abundant opportunity as there is now for the QB whom we are trying to protect.