One day the Braxton Berrios type of player will not be on this team

[slats]

2 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

I'm sorry ok i'm done for realz this time....as long these guys don't keep trying to tell me that berrios is some great player we need on the team when he obviously nothing more that a special teamer that can be and should be replaced if given the opportunity with a high upside player from the draft!

 

Yes, because most NFL teams carry five, six, seven WRs, all of whom are generally #1 or #2 types. But you’re right, we should replace him as a special teamer. Too bad there wasn’t a better KOR than him in the entire league this year to replace him with. 

[Origen]

9 minutes ago, slats said:

Yes, because most NFL teams carry five, six, seven WRs, all of whom are generally #1 or #2 types. But you’re right, we should replace him as a special teamer. Too bad there wasn’t a better KOR than him in the entire league this year to replace him with. 

Simple math dude.  Why have a #4 receiver when you could just have #1 there too?  Duh?  Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Megatron, Al Toon, and Deandre Hopkins is the only acceptable WR room, really.

[HawaiisOnlyJetsFan]

33 minutes ago, Trotter said:

Hey brother - how is Honolulu today? 88  and sunny? Nice 20 degree day and an inch of slush in nj. 
 

77 and sunny, perfect day for golf!

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

2 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

as long these guys don't keep trying to tell me that berrios is some great player

Not a single person said that Berrios is "some great player." I'm still waiting for that list of zero people who said that Berrios was great. 

[PS17]

Learn how to take an L, dude. 

[playtowinthegame]

Whenever I see this thread back at the top I picture that hot dog gif. 

[Trotter]

33 minutes ago, HawaiisOnlyJetsFan said:

77 and sunny, perfect day for golf!

Enjoy. I can picture myself sitting in the rum fire right now. I need to get back there

[Mogglez]

3 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Why is this thread still going 

Because OP wants to die on the hill that having an all-pro kick returner, who is also a pretty good versatile slot WR, that we picked up as a free agent, is actually a bad thing.

[#27TheDominator]

3 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Really? i didn't know him being cut and claimed by us is breaking news. off the street was ref to this. I didn't think i needed to spell it out. 

We def disagree. Berrios is not Renfrow skillwise or close.

 

You seem willing to discuss, so I will bite.  

I don't understand your first paragraph.  You acted like Berrios was trash and putting him in the same sentence with Renfrow, not worthy of discussion.  You called Berrios a "cast off."  He was cut, but by the Patriots who hoped to stash him on the practice squad.  The Jets picked him up and they were like 3rd in waiver claim that year.  It's not like he spent months on the street.

I don't know how you can disagree on facts.  You admit that Renfrow is an NFL player and worthy of rostering, but you refuse to accept that Berrios might be because he is short.  The point isn't whether Berrios is as good as Renfrow.  The point is that you keep squawking about dumping him for a "high upside player in the draft."  Berrios upside is certainly at the Hunter Renfrow level.  That's not enough for you, or would you be looking to move on from Renfrow because he's as short as the Dominator?

I have a feeling I will soon be flipping to your side of this argument because I am not in favor of giving out a huge contract to Berrios and I don't know where those negotiations will go, but he certainly warrants an offer.

Also, keep pissing on special teams.  Special teams is 20% of an NFL game.  The difference between a good punt cover team and a bad one is about 2 points per game.  It's a big part of the game.  Ignore it at your own peril.

[BornJetsFan1983]

2 hours ago, Trotter said:

So let’s play your logic out. No player who excels at special teams and adds benefit as a 4th/5th receiver should be selected as all pro. They should also be replaced with a higher skill player even if the replacement is not as versatile. 
is that accurate?

ok this should be fun. Well that is not my position.

I will stick continue to stick with my original point way back from page one and all the defending comments since. Ideally a good team will have their WR4/5 guy be a young drafted pick who has upside to play a big role on the team - like a WR that could become the 1 or 2. Not a scrub career long special teamer, well unless he is special like Hester or something.

To respond to your logic above. I'm not sure what you are going for with the special teams and versatile comments above. But if your WR4 or 5 doesn't play special teams that doesn't seem very versatile and i would imagine the GM should find someone better will to play.  

 

[BornJetsFan1983]

2 hours ago, HawaiisOnlyJetsFan said:

Amari Rodgers

Malik Taylor

Cameron Batson

Chester Rodgers

Isaiah McKenzie

Jake Kumerow

Daurice Fountain

Jaelon Dardon

Tyler Fountain

According to your logic, all of these players are better than/contribute more than Berrios correct? 

(Hint those are #@5/6 wrs on playoff team rosters)

 

You can insert any name you like from any team. It is just about the team drafting guys and hopefully hitting and finding the gem. Im not familiar with any of them off hand so I couldn't tell you their numbers verse Berrios, but I like them if they were young draft picks and the team is seeing what upside they have.

Whether or not if you hit or not, drafting a young guy with unknown but potential upside is the correct move in my opinion. Especially verse just keeping a guy that gives you similar results on the field but upside is well below theirs. i.e. berrios is not a WR1. or 2 or probably a 3. 

So yeah if I could draft any of those guys if I thought they have potential to become a WR 1/2/3 guy. 

[Trotter]

5 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

ok this should be fun. Well that is not my position.

I will stick continue to stick with my original point way back from page one and all the defending comments since. Ideally a good team will have their WR4/5 guy be a young drafted pick who has upside to play a big role on the team - like a WR that could become the 1 or 2. Not a scrub career long special teamer, well unless he is special like Hester or something.

To respond to your logic above. I'm not sure what you are going for with the special teams and versatile comments above. But if your WR4 or 5 doesn't play special teams that doesn't seem very versatile and i would imagine the GM should find someone better will to play.  

 

Ok. I understand your vision. Can you now tell me in the last 50 years, an example of who that player is? To be clear, they have to have been drafted, be a 4 or 5 receiver and have the potential and ability to be a 1 or 2. 
 

who would that be?

[BornJetsFan1983]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Yes, because most NFL teams carry five, six, seven WRs, all of whom are generally #1 or #2 types. But you’re right, we should replace him as a special teamer. Too bad there wasn’t a better KOR than him in the entire league this year to replace him with. 

Dude this is sad at this point. I mean you're either purposely ignorant or just cant get over your Berrios boner. I have never argued your comment or any of these comments trying disagreeing with me. No matter how many times i correct you.  

All I said is a young draft pick with potential and unknown upside is better than berrios. Sure berrios had a great year doing returns, big deal, I rather have a guy that might break out. Newsflash that is how most teams run. That is how you should want the team to run.

For the record 25 pages in and you are still rooting against having a better roster. SOJF. good job!

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

12 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Ideally a good team will have their WR4/5 guy be a young drafted pick who has upside to play a big role on the team - like a WR that could become the 1 or 2.

Based on what? Your opinion? 

14 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Not a scrub career long special teamer, well unless he is special like Hester or something.

We have established multiple times that Berrios is not a scrub returner.

We have also established that Berrios is a back up slot receiver who is used in special situations that the starters are not being assigned. He catches everything thrown to him.

Now that you have been proven wrong for the 700th time, would you like to try for 701?

[Jetsfan80]

BJF said he was gonna stop last page.  10 posts later…

[BornJetsFan1983]

1 hour ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Not a single person said that Berrios is "some great player." I'm still waiting for that list of zero people who said that Berrios was great. 

This whole post is filled with Berrios is such a good player that we shouldn't replace him with a younger drafted players.

If you do not think he is some great player and that we should replace like I said then what exactly do you disagree with?

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Dude this is sad at this point. I mean you're either purposely ignorant or just cant get over your Berrios boner. I have never argued your comment or any of these comments trying disagreeing with me. No matter how many times i correct you.  

All I said is a young draft pick with potential and unknown upside is better than berrios. Sure berrios had a great year doing returns, big deal, I rather have a guy that might break out. Newsflash that is how most teams run. That is how you should want the team to run.

For the record 25 pages in and you are still rooting against having a better roster. SOJF. good job!

Are you done yet

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, BornJetsFan1983 said:

This whole post is filled with Berrios is such a good player that we shouldn't replace him with a younger drafted players.

If you do not think he is some great player and that we should replace like I said then what exactly do you disagree with?

[BornJetsFan1983]

46 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Because OP wants to die on the hill that having an all-pro kick returner, who is also a pretty good versatile slot WR, that we picked up as a free agent, is actually a bad thing.

I just said that i hate Berrios and I cant wait till we have a young drafted guy in there with upside that might develop into a better player. 

Doesn't sound like a bad thing to me! 

[slats]

8 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

All I said is a young draft pick with potential and unknown upside is better than berrios. Sure berrios had a great year doing returns, big deal, I rather have a guy that might break out. Newsflash that is how most teams run. That is how you should want the team to run.

For the record 25 pages in and you are still rooting against having a better roster. SOJF. good job!

I want the Jets to splash in FA at WR, and then draft another one at #10. I’m all about improving the roster, especially the WR and TE groups on offense this year. 
 
But here’s a newsflash for you: every team in the league carries role players. Berrios will still have a role on this team even if they make the major moves I want them to make at WR because he’s a premium special teamer who is also a solid slot receiver and is dangerous rushing the ball as well. 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

2 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

This whole post is filled with Berrios is such a good player that we shouldn't replace him with a younger drafted players.

Give me examples of people saying that "Berrios is such a good player that we shouldn't replace him with a younger drafted players." Nobody is saying not to draft a WR. In fact, many of the people on the board would like to see one or two wide receivers drafted. Berrios would still be the fifth WR who doubles as a first team all pro kick and punt returner. 

3 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

If you do not think he is some great player and that we should replace like I said then what exactly do you disagree with?

The goal of the draft is not to replace first team all pro returners who offer versatility in the running and passing game. There is no need to replace a Berrios type of player, ever. What part of that is so foreign and hard for you to understand? The rest of the board seems to understand this. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You seem willing to discuss, so I will bite.  

I don't understand your first paragraph.  You acted like Berrios was trash and putting him in the same sentence with Renfrow, not worthy of discussion.  You called Berrios a "cast off."  He was cut, but by the Patriots who hoped to stash him on the practice squad.  The Jets picked him up and they were like 3rd in waiver claim that year.  It's not like he spent months on the street.

Just cause people disagree doesn't mean I wouldn't like to discuss, that is why i made the post in the first place. I think berrios is a trash player. I thought being cut qualified. Lets assume you are right they wanted to stash him on the practice squad (i could buy that but they could have also just been done with him because they had better players) I think a practice squad guy is not that good. i.e. trash.

I know its a "mean" word but I mean they picked up a couple guys with that waiver priority if I remember right, JFM was one of them. Anyways he is a fringe player talent and measurables wise.  Maybe a couple other teams besides us might have picked him up but not any good teams. 

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't know how you can disagree on facts.  You admit that Renfrow is an NFL player and worthy of rostering, but you refuse to accept that Berrios might be because he is short.  The point isn't whether Berrios is as good as Renfrow.  The point is that you keep squawking about dumping him for a "high upside player in the draft."  Berrios upside is certainly at the Hunter Renfrow level.  That's not enough for you, or would you be looking to move on from Renfrow because he's as short as the Dominator?

I don't think i can disagree on facts. If anything, I adjust my opinion when someone points out something I did not know. Like how good Berrios was at special teams, I thought originally maybe there were in flatted numbers. But as discussed his numbers are indeed top of the league. I still don't think 5 yards more per return is all that important overall considering our other needs, but the fact is berrios is a better special teamer than I thought and admitted as such.

Maybe I made a typo somewhere I don't think renfrows height has anything to do with his value as a WR. He has shown the ability to be the top WR on his team where as Berrios has not. I think Renfrow is good because he balled out, demanded touches as a WR shows high level skills getting open, clutch plays and just playing WR overall.  He is a young drafted guy and earned more time on the field and eventually with injuries a starting position. Hell he looked like a top WR for any team. Berrios on the other hand in a very similar situation years on our team given opportunity from injury never really played like a top guy. Sure he has had some plays etc. but I do not believe he has shown he can play at a high level as a WR. ghosting out during the game, not getting open etc. I do think that if we draft a WR, i would want that player to be in the WR4/5 role over him. 100%

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I have a feeling I will soon be flipping to your side of this argument because I am not in favor of giving out a huge contract to Berrios and I don't know where those negotiations will go, but he certainly warrants an offer.

Agreed he deserves an offer, i suggested the comparison here is like Crowder. Many people were high on him more so than what he served. Thinking we needed him when in reality his services were not worth that much. Not to say they were not worth anything, but his play got him the contract he got. Berrios inflated value is something I think he will expect more $$ and if another team pays him good for him. But we should not make that mistake and I am looking forward to when we have enough of our own Drafted WR that we will not need him on the team at all.

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Also, keep pissing on special teams.  Special teams is 20% of an NFL game.  The difference between a good punt cover team and a bad one is about 2 points per game.  It's a big part of the game.  Ignore it at your own peril.

I just rather have the guy that can make guys miss and score more TD's is that so bad?

For as much love as he gets for returning kicks, we can't pretend that the 5 more yards per return on average is not due to some blocking and scheme. Sure he is running the plays but I am of the opinion that a guy that is bigger, more athletic, stronger would be have a bigger impact on sundays potentially scoring TD's.

I don't hate berrios the person I just hate that we have drafted so poorly that we don't have the higher upside guy in his place. 

I dont think Special teams is not important i just knwo berrios is not a genetic/ athletic freak and a younger stronger guy that might have some better vision could do pretty well.  

I do agree with you special teams is important. But Adre Roberts had Berrios numbers, and I didnt think that helped us out that much then either. Leon Washington if you remember him, did not have Berrios numbers but his TD's on offense and special teams sure seemed much more valuable to me. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

41 minutes ago, Trotter said:

Ok. I understand your vision. Can you now tell me in the last 50 years, an example of who that player is? To be clear, they have to have been drafted, be a 4 or 5 receiver and have the potential and ability to be a 1 or 2. 
 

who would that be?

ok cool.

well how about just this past season, St Amon Ra, Bateman, Chase, D smith etc... I mean there are plenty of rooks that ball out and move up the depth chart every year, even in year 1. Elijah Moore on our OWN TEAM!!

 

 

[BornJetsFan1983]

25 minutes ago, slats said:

I want the Jets to splash in FA at WR, and then draft another one at #10. I’m all about improving the roster, especially the WR and TE groups on offense this year. 
 
But here’s a newsflash for you: every team in the league carries role players. Berrios will still have a role on this team even if they make the major moves I want them to make at WR because he’s a premium special teamer who is also a solid slot receiver and is dangerous rushing the ball as well. 

That is one way to go, I'm not sure I think we should go the FA wr route but yeah man all about drafting someone at 10 and then another later in draft. I know teams carry role players, this is obvious. Berrios has a role this year but look at our WR's...

E Moore, C Davis, K Cole, J Crowder, Berrios... other guys...

We draft a kid at 10, and pick up a FA WR or draft another.. they all start over over Berrios most likely. Well his spot at return man is not that safe. Not just as a return man but making the team. He might be headed for the practice squad or another team. Joe likes to get value.

Most likely I think Berrios has one more year in his "role" but then we will most likely be at the day I can't wait for, when his services and players like him will not be neccessary./

[BornJetsFan1983]

27 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Give me examples of people saying that "Berrios is such a good player that we shouldn't replace him with a younger drafted players." Nobody is saying not to draft a WR. In fact, many of the people on the board would like to see one or two wide receivers drafted. Berrios would still be the fifth WR who doubles as a first team all pro kick and punt returner. 

is this serious? seen below in bold. The first name on the list is you. lol

27 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

The goal of the draft is not to replace first team all pro returners who offer versatility in the running and passing game. There is no need to replace a Berrios type of player, ever. What part of that is so foreign and hard for you to understand? The rest of the board seems to understand this. 

you agree and disagree with me at the same time. Pick a side and defend it. 

The goal of the draft is to improve your talent at whatever position. This is why you replace him. Because you want a better player. That is the reason I have repeated to you many times already. You and your circle jerk does not constitute the board nor majority of jet fans. 

First team all pro returner is great, but I still rather have a guy that has potential to be better at his position.

[Trotter]

16 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

ok cool.

well how about just this past season, St Amon Ra, Bateman, Chase, D smith etc... I mean there are plenty of rooks that ball out and move up the depth chart every year, even in year 1. Elijah Moore on our OWN TEAM!!

 

 

Admittedly I am not familiar with st Amon or bateman but the others are two first rounders and a high second. 
so ideally, our roster should only be 1st and 2nd rounders?

[Ghost420]

27 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Just cause people disagree doesn't mean I wouldn't like to discuss, that is why i made the post in the first place. I think berrios is a trash player. I thought being cut qualified. Lets assume you are right they wanted to stash him on the practice squad (i could buy that but they could have also just been done with him because they had better players) I think a practice squad guy is not that good. i.e. trash.

I know its a "mean" word but I mean they picked up a couple guys with that waiver priority if I remember right, JFM was one of them. Anyways he is a fringe player talent and measurables wise.  Maybe a couple other teams besides us might have picked him up but not any good teams. 

I don't think i can disagree on facts. If anything, I adjust my opinion when someone points out something I did not know. Like how good Berrios was at special teams, I thought originally maybe there were in flatted numbers. But as discussed his numbers are indeed top of the league. I still don't think 5 yards more per return is all that important overall considering our other needs, but the fact is berrios is a better special teamer than I thought and admitted as such.

Maybe I made a typo somewhere I don't think renfrows height has anything to do with his value as a WR. He has shown the ability to be the top WR on his team where as Berrios has not. I think Renfrow is good because he balled out, demanded touches as a WR shows high level skills getting open, clutch plays and just playing WR overall.  He is a young drafted guy and earned more time on the field and eventually with injuries a starting position. Hell he looked like a top WR for any team. Berrios on the other hand in a very similar situation years on our team given opportunity from injury never really played like a top guy. Sure he has had some plays etc. but I do not believe he has shown he can play at a high level as a WR. ghosting out during the game, not getting open etc. I do think that if we draft a WR, i would want that player to be in the WR4/5 role over him. 100%

Agreed he deserves an offer, i suggested the comparison here is like Crowder. Many people were high on him more so than what he served. Thinking we needed him when in reality his services were not worth that much. Not to say they were not worth anything, but his play got him the contract he got. Berrios inflated value is something I think he will expect more $$ and if another team pays him good for him. But we should not make that mistake and I am looking forward to when we have enough of our own Drafted WR that we will not need him on the team at all.

I just rather have the guy that can make guys miss and score more TD's is that so bad?

For as much love as he gets for returning kicks, we can't pretend that the 5 more yards per return on average is not due to some blocking and scheme. Sure he is running the plays but I am of the opinion that a guy that is bigger, more athletic, stronger would be have a bigger impact on sundays potentially scoring TD's.

I don't hate berrios the person I just hate that we have drafted so poorly that we don't have the higher upside guy in his place. 

I dont think Special teams is not important i just knwo berrios is not a genetic/ athletic freak and a younger stronger guy that might have some better vision could do pretty well.  

I do agree with you special teams is important. But Adre Roberts had Berrios numbers, and I didnt think that helped us out that much then either. Leon Washington if you remember him, did not have Berrios numbers but his TD's on offense and special teams sure seemed much more valuable to me. 

Pretty sure no one is advocating for berrios tk be the #1 wr in this team but if we are replacing wrs it isn't berrios. It should be keelan cole and mims. 

[slats]

19 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Berrios has a role this year but look at our WR's...

E Moore, C Davis, K Cole, J Crowder, Berrios... other guys...

We draft a kid at 10, and pick up a FA WR or draft another.. they all start over over Berrios most likely.

Cole and Crowder are goners. If the Jets add two premium WRs, Berrios is still returning kicks and punts and getting on the field on offense in a few designed packages as the #5 guy. The “other guys,” are all well behind Braxton. The Smiths? Mims? Cager? 

[BornJetsFan1983]

12 minutes ago, Trotter said:

Admittedly I am not familiar with st Amon or bateman but the others are two first rounders and a high second. 
so ideally, our roster should only be 1st and 2nd rounders?

Ideally we draft WRs that become good players on the team. did you read the first post? Bateman is in Baltimore and St Amon Ra is in Det. He was a 4th round pick. The idea is berrios wont have room to be on the roster cause when we draft someone as a WR they will be in his spot. Doesn't have to be a number 1 pick. Could be some 4th rounder that we want to see if he can be something special - at WR...Our WR room is vastly better than before but next year will be better and hopefully the year after will be set. 

 

 

[BallinPB]

26 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Most likely I think Berrios has one more year in his "role" but then we will most likely be at the day I can't wait for, when his services and players like him will not be neccessary./

Imagine saying this about the only All-Pro player on this roster.  

[BornJetsFan1983]

11 minutes ago, Ghost420 said:

Pretty sure no one is advocating for berrios tk be the #1 wr in this team but if we are replacing wrs it isn't berrios. It should be keelan cole and mims. 

neither am I obviously. I agree they woudl be better replaced verse Berrios. But add a FA and couple draft picks even Berrios spot is not garunteed.

[FidelioJet]

5 minutes ago, slats said:

Cole and Crowder are goners. If the Jets add two premium WRs, Berrios is still returning kicks and punts and getting on the field on offense in a few designed packages as the #5 guy. The “other guys,” are all well behind Braxton. The Smiths? Mims? Cager? 

I agree completely with what you just stated.

but to be fair.  There are plenty of people around here that are over hyping Berrios.  

To the point that I've had people telling me he's better than Moore and should be starting over him.

 

[Hex]

How about I put it this way:

Would you rather have a returner that can get you an extra 20 yards on average before your drive even starts, or start 20 yards back and trust your offense to try and drive 20 extra yards?

[BornJetsFan1983]

6 minutes ago, slats said:

Cole and Crowder are goners. If the Jets add two premium WRs, Berrios is still returning kicks and punts and getting on the field on offense in a few designed packages as the #5 guy. The “other guys,” are all well behind Braxton. The Smiths? Mims? Cager? 

You think Crowder is a goner? Idk he is like the player that will just not go away. I think he might be here next year. 

You could be right, but he could also be off the team cause someone paid that scratch. Like i said Im looking forward to the day he is not here. And some young draft pick gets his spot. If not this year, then def next. Unless he levels up at a WR. Which i do not think he is capable of.

And as far as those designed packages for him - you think that will be part of the game plan next year? Im not so sure. I think that was because of injury, Hopefully next year we will not need to go down that route.

[BornJetsFan1983]

4 minutes ago, BallinPB said:

Imagine saying this about the only All-Pro player on this roster.  

didnt work our so bad last time 

https://thejetpress.com/2020/01/17/new-york-jets-made-correct-andre-roberts/

I know I havent discussed it all that much but repeating his special teams succeess is not likely, because of well..talent.