This explains A LOT why Mac Jones only passed the ball only 3 times vs Bills

[jgb]

28 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Minshew. Or better yet, Mitch. Because Belli is a genius.

You got me where it hurts, you know I can't downvote an endorsement of Mitch or Minshew!

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

So Belli is brilliant for drafting a quarterback who can't play in New England weather, and essentially not using him in the biggest game of the season? Sure, whatever you say.

Pats won, right?

Or am I missing something?

Jones is also still the best producing, best playing rookie QB thru today, right?

[Jet Nut]

30 minutes ago, Biggs said:

The good defensive teams run 3/4's.  Teams don't have the personal for a good 4/3.  DL are rotational players.    

Ravens, WFT, Eagles, Seahawks, SF etc, etc run a 4-3.  There’s more than one way to skin a cat

[Long Island Leprechaun]

11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Pats won, right?

Or am I missing something?

Jones is also still the best producing, best playing rookie QB thru today, right?

Of course. But I'm simply responding to the logic of the OP. Apples and oranges.

[Warfish]

48 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Of course. But I'm simply responding to the logic of the OP. Apples and oranges.

I don't know that you are.

The Pats won against an exceptional team with an overpowering Defense with a QB that threw it 3 times in bad weather.

That's pretty impressive.

The OP said:

Quote

.....this is yet another reason why Bill Belichick is the greatest coach of all time and why the Pats are who they are and why the Jets are not. Since when have the Jets ever put their QBs in the best situation to succeed, it's usually the opposite.

I think that's fair actually.  Knowing their limits and weakness with a rookie QB in bad weather vs. a hungry Bills pass D, Bellichek took the air out of the ball and limited his liability given the situation.  That seems pretty smart to me.

I think the Jets criticism is also fair, we've seen this team ask far too much of young QB's on a number of occasions in the past few years alone.

I'm not sure the "So Belli is brilliant for drafting a quarterback who can't play in New England weather," is valid based on one specific game they won in that situation.  Also not sure it's fair, after one singular game, to proclaim that Jones "can't play in New England Weather" either. 

I mean jeez, here we are at JN with many folks saying we can't make judgements on Zack till the end of year three but you're making definitive statements on Jones over 1 game in a specific tactically dangerous situation for a young passer vs. great D and weather?

[Maynard13]

16 hours ago, DoomProphet said:

CBS Sportsline in my opinion did some incredible investigatory sports journalism finding this tweet from Mac Jones in 2015 saying in a tweet "He's never seen snow in his life". Bellichick doesn't miss anything and he probably knew about this and knew the limitations of his arm and didn't allow him to pass the ball in 55 mph wind gusts. Mac Jones being from Florida and playing with Alabama is not used to crazy northeast weather (he's going to find out when the Pats play in the playoffs).

It's sickening to say this but this is yet another reason why Bill Belichick is the greatest coach of all time and why the Pats are who they are and why the Jets are not. Since when have the Jets ever put their QBs in the best situation to succeed, it's usually the opposite.

But that bullet pass to the TE was amazing!

[Maynard13]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Pats won, right?

Or am I missing something?

Jones is also still the best producing, best playing rookie QB thru today, right?

Belicheat could win a Super Bowl with Darnold, so NO. He'd have Sammy Boy hrow 10 passes all under 3 yards and Sammy would be singing "I'm Going to DisneyLand".

[defensedoesntgetyoulaid]

12 hours ago, DoomProphet said:

Honestly, the Bills run D is almost as bad as the Jets. ALMOST. They are going to get exposed in the playoffs. They were exposed vs Colts and Jonathon Taylor and they were exposed vs Pats.

LOL, you think we'll make the playoffs?

[docdhc]

16 hours ago, DoomProphet said:

CBS Sportsline in my opinion did some incredible investigatory sports journalism finding this tweet from Mac Jones in 2015 saying in a tweet "He's never seen snow in his life". Bellichick doesn't miss anything and he probably knew about this and knew the limitations of his arm and didn't allow him to pass the ball in 55 mph wind gusts. Mac Jones being from Florida and playing with Alabama is not used to crazy northeast weather (he's going to find out when the Pats play in the playoffs).

It's sickening to say this but this is yet another reason why Bill Belichick is the greatest coach of all time and why the Pats are who they are and why the Jets are not. Since when have the Jets ever put their QBs in the best situation to succeed, it's usually the opposite.

Hopefully the rest of the league figures Jones out soon and Belli won’t be able to continue hiding his weaknesses. Eventually you need the talent no matter how good the coaching is. 

[Awesumtenor]

14 hours ago, heymangold said:

My god, another pats post.

For real…For the bazillionth time, Beli is wicked smart..

You can’t compare the Jets to them because the Jets don’t have that level of continuity with either their coaching staff or their personnel in any phase of the game.
 

We don’t have that; we never have…and the more people you are playing that are new to the scheme, the greater the number of people that can screw up assignments. NE has enough people who have been there for years who know their offensive and defensive schemes well enough to assist their rookies enough to play well.

We have an overturned roster and a coaching staff where most of them are doing their job for the first time in their lives…so we are an accident waiting to happen. There has been improvement but it is hard to teach during the season. We may get lucky and take that leap next year but when the bulk of this team has played together in the same system going into the third year is when real improvement should be seen.

[DoomProphet]

4 minutes ago, docdhc said:

Hopefully the rest of the league figures Jones out soon and Belli won’t be able to continue hiding his weaknesses. Eventually you need the talent no matter how good the coaching is. 

It's going to be interesting come January if they have a home playoff game what are they going to do then to mask his weaknesses.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

32 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I don't know that you are.

The Pats won against an exceptional team with an overpowering Defense with a QB that threw it 3 times in bad weather.

That's pretty impressive.

The OP said:

I think that's fair actually.  Knowing their limits and weakness with a rookie QB in bad weather vs. a hungry Bills pass D, Bellichek took the air out of the ball and limited his liability given the situation.  That seems pretty smart to me.

I think the Jets criticism is also fair, we've seen this team ask far too much of young QB's on a number of occasions in the past few years alone.

I'm not sure the "So Belli is brilliant for drafting a quarterback who can't play in New England weather," is valid based on one specific game they won in that situation.  Also not sure it's fair, after one singular game, to proclaim that Jones "can't play in New England Weather" either. 

I mean jeez, here we are at JN with many folks saying we can't make judgements on Zack till the end of year three but you're making definitive statements on Jones over 1 game in a specific tactically dangerous situation for a young passer vs. great D and weather?

I didn't proclaim that Jones can't play in cold weather, the article did. And I didn't make any definitive statements about Jones at all. I made a comment regarding the brilliance of Bellicick to rely exclusively on the run game in bad weather. I remember the Jets doing the same thing a few years back in a mudbowl game against the Pats and winning. Genius, I suppose. And if the running game was stopped by the Bills, what then? Was there a plan B? I actually agree with Beerfish on this one. The Bills butfumbled a game they could have won. 

[DoomProphet]

32 minutes ago, defensedoesntgetyoulaid said:

LOL, you think we'll make the playoffs?

I just looked at your schedule, I think you will go 3-2 the rest of the way to get to 10-7. I have to see how the rest of the conference is doing. I think you'll make it barely and play a road wildcard game vs division champion.

[FidelioJet]

He didn't pass because Buffalo allowed a 60 yard TE run when the entire planet knew they could only run.

[Barry McCockinner]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

He didn't pass because Buffalo allowed a 60 yard TE run when the entire planet knew they could only run.

fixed that for you

[DoomProphet]

5 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Yes, drafting a QB to play in NE, Buffalo and NY who cant throw in the cold and wind is a brilliant move no one else would have thought of until Mac won a game that was handed to them

Pure genius

I thought about that. If they have a home playoff game it's going to be really interesting to see how they cover up his lack of arm strength. Teams are going to stick 8 or 9 in the box and force him to throw deep in cold weather, that's how I would play them if I was a coach.

[Warfish]

8 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

I didn't proclaim that Jones can't play in cold weather, the article did. And I didn't make any definitive statements about Jones at all. I made a comment regarding the brilliance of Bellicick to rely exclusively on the run game in bad weather. I remember the Jets doing the same thing a few years back in a mudbowl game against the Pats and winning. Genius, I suppose. And if the running game was stopped by the Bills, what then? Was there a plan B? I actually agree with Beerfish on this one. The Bills butfumbled a game they could have won. 

Not really worth debating the usual "Pats Suck/Jets Inferiority Complex" routine.

If you don't think Belli was smart, the game-plan good or Jones a good pick, ok, great.    

[BornJetsFan1983]

7 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

If this is why BB didn’t  let him throw, because he has never seen snow, drafting him to a team in the Northeast with an open air stadium  was not exactly a stroke of genius. 

Maybe you and @BornJetsFan1983 who is trying to make a case that the Jets should dump a top 5 return specialist can start a new message board. The IQ here would jump substantially. 

Low blow bro!! Look I like more cowbell just like the next guy but you twisted veiw of berries being good for the team is ignorant at best.

He is not a top 5 return man. A top 5 guys gets a td every now ad them and can make a guy miss.

You are the high IQ side by flaming berries is some great player...get out of here

[More Cowbell]

21 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Low blow bro!! Look I like more cowbell just like the next guy but you twisted veiw of berries being good for the team is ignorant at best.

He is not a top 5 return man. A top 5 guys gets a td every now ad them and can make a guy miss.

You are the high IQ side by flaming berries is some great player...get out of here

His stats say he is. When your return average is in the top 5 that is where you rank. Is this a hill you really want to die on? Everyone in that thread thinks you are ignorant. 

[Skeet Ulrich]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

 

The Pats won against an exceptional team with an overpowering Defense with a QB that threw it 3 times in bad weather.

 

Are the Bills really exceptional? They're a good team, but look who they've played and where the wins and losses lie.

[Sonny Werblin]

I think it’s hilarious how every rookie QB (and most veteran starters) are full of piss and vinegar belief in themselves and what they are capable of. Then along comes Mac Jones who has wild success doing the opposite of what we’ve all expected out of successful QBs i.e. to make plays with exceptional arm talent or athleticism. Jones will rarely, if ever, win a game because if his play, but he certainly will not lose one either. He is the epitome of the “push” QB.

[Warfish]

14 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Are the Bills really exceptional? They're a good team, but look who they've played and where the wins and losses lie.

Again, I'm just not gonna argue these kind of points anymore. 

The Bills could literally be 17-0 and #1 in Offense and #1 in Defense and someone here would still be saying "well, they haven't played anybody tho, and Allan is still just a RB, they suck really, bet their out first round".

They're a top 5-10 team so far this year and a likely playoff team as a Wild Card.

Call that whatever makes you happy.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

Not really worth debating the usual "Pats Suck/Jets Inferiority Complex" routine.

If you don't think Belli was smart, the game-plan good or Jones a good pick, ok, great.    

You keep putting words in my mouth. As I said elsewhere, both Bellicick and Brady are HOF at what they do. That's reality. The game plan worked even though completely one-dimensional. It won on old fashioned brute force, not some insidiously ingenious plot. It was a close game, low scoring. The Bills didn't capitalize on opportunities. They weren't blown out. And Jones was in fact a good pick, having absolutely nothing to do with his capability in a cold climate. That was the article's suggestion and the OP's, not me. Jones was a very good fit for what the Pats do, and the Pats are a much more developed team than the Jets, so he thrived. The Jets are in an entirely different situation to say the least.

[Warfish]

8 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I think it’s hilarious how every rookie QB (and most veteran starters) are full of piss and vinegar belief in themselves and what they are capable of. Then along comes Mac Jones who has wild success doing the opposite of what we’ve all expected out of successful QBs i.e. to make plays with exceptional arm talent or athleticism. Jones will rarely, if ever, win a game because if his play, but he certainly will not lose one either. He is the epitome of the “push” QB.

The two most important stats in a QB are Completion Percentage and TD:INT ratio.

People like to poop on "Game Managers" with big bright dreams of gorgeous arcing bazooka-thrown 80 yard bomb after 80 yard bomb in their eyes.....

I'd take the QB with the highest accuracy (as shown by actually completing passes) and the lowest penchant for turning the football over (TD:INT ratio).

Don't get me wrong, I also want 4,500 passing yards too.  Which often seems to come with really accurate, really turnover averse QB's.  

I want what so many Jets Fans reject outright: 2020 Kirk Cousins (67.6%, 4,265 yards, 35 TD, 13 INT) or even this year, (25 TD to 3 INT).

People will complain he doesn't win Super Bowls, and his teams record isn't always great. 

Well, I say our odds are alot better with a Cousins-level of performance than a Wilson or Darnold or Sanchez or Geno level. 

Who's next in the dream epic athlete sweepstakes, maybe HE will be Marino-meets-Favre and make all the fans swoon like they want.

[Jet Nut]

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

People like to poop on "Game Managers" with big bright dreams of gorgeous arcing bazooka-thrown 80 yard bomb after 80 yard bomb in their eyes.....

Pretty much, yeah.  

Game managers rely on their teams to win for them.  Most fans love the QBs who go out and win games.  

 

[rangerous]

the game is just an example of how a coach knows how to prepare the team for field conditions and weather.  i doubt if snow had anything to do with jones not passing.  more than likely it was the wind.  on the other side allen can't wait to show everyone what a strong arm he has.  how on earth did little seany think he could call 30 passes in that kind of weather is pretty strange.

[Skeet Ulrich]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Again, I'm just not gonna argue these kind of points anymore. 

The Bills could literally be 17-0 and #1 in Offense and #1 in Defense and someone here would still be saying "well, they haven't played anybody tho, and Allan is still just a RB, they suck really, bet their out first round".

They're a top 5-10 team so far this year and a likely playoff team as a Wild Card.

Call that whatever makes you happy.

7-5, next 3 games AT TB, vs Carolina, AT New England... they're staring down the barrel at 8-7 with their only notable win being the Chiefs early in the year. They're a good team, but wildly inconsistent due to Allen's play. They're on the road to nowhere. Hanging 40 on the little sisters of the poor doesn't fool anyone.

[Awesumtenor]

8 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I think it’s hilarious how every rookie QB (and most veteran starters) are full of piss and vinegar belief in themselves and what they are capable of. Then along comes Mac Jones who has wild success doing the opposite of what we’ve all expected out of successful QBs i.e. to make plays with exceptional arm talent or athleticism. Jones will rarely, if ever, win a game because if his play, but he certainly will not lose one either. He is the epitome of the “push” QB.

The fact that they only threw the ball 3 times shows his arm talent is not nearly as exceptional as has been claimed.

[Sonny Werblin]

16 hours ago, Warfish said:

The two most important stats in a QB are Completion Percentage and TD:INT ratio.

People like to poop on "Game Managers" with big bright dreams of gorgeous arcing bazooka-thrown 80 yard bomb after 80 yard bomb in their eyes.....

I'd take the QB with the highest accuracy (as shown by actually completing passes) and the lowest penchant for turning the football over (TD:INT ratio).

Don't get me wrong, I also want 4,500 passing yards too.  Which often seems to come with really accurate, really turnover averse QB's.  

I want what so many Jets Fans reject outright: 2020 Kirk Cousins (67.6%, 4,265 yards, 35 TD, 13 INT) or even this year, (25 TD to 3 INT).

People will complain he doesn't win Super Bowls, and his teams record isn't always great. 

Well, I say our odds are alot better with a Cousins-level of performance than a Wilson or Darnold or Sanchez or Geno level. 

Who's next in the dream epic athlete sweepstakes, maybe HE will be Marino-meets-Favre and make all the fans swoon like they want.

I agree with the one exception. You also want a QB who is a winner. Kirk Cousins is not a winner. His career record is 57-58-2, and he is only 31-28-1 as QB of a very good team in Minnesota.  Plus in his 2 best seasons, he won 10 and 9 games. In every other season he has won less than 9. Not a winner. 

[Warfish]

53 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I agree with the one exception. You also want a QB who is a winner. Kirk Cousins is not a winner. His career record is 57-58-2, and he is only 31-28-1 as QB of a very good team in Minnesota.  Plus in his 2 best seasons, he won 10 and 9 games. In every other season he has won less than 9. Not a winner. 

I'll continue to counter that he is more of a winner than any QB we've had since Pennington, Vinny or O'Brien.

Is Sanchez a "winner" because his team literally carried him all season long to the playoffs a couple of times?

Lord knows, the endless list of Nagle, Geno, Hackenberg, Darnold, Wilson (so far) types are not "winners" in any form.

I also continue to argue that wins/losses are not 100% on a QB.  They are not pitchers in baseball, W/L is not what it is in that sport.  Kirk Cousins is not the primary reason his teams don't win games.

Jets Fans want Peyton Manning hybridized with John Elway and Dan Marino and Walter Peyton all in one, and seem to reject anything less.

Meanwhile we play the absolutely dregs listed above (Wilson still TBD, but I doubt he's the Man).

Maybe, just maybe, our franchise might be better off going 8-9, 9-8, 10-7 for a few years under a "not winner" QB's who can put up 4,300 yards and a 30+ to 10 INT ratio, and see how that goes.

Hell, almost every season Cousins has started would be the all-time more productive season for a Jets QB. 

Mind boggling, we demand only the best, while accepting and hyping up the absolute worst when it comes to QB's.

 

[Sonny Werblin]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

I'll continue to counter that he is more of a winner than any QB we've had since Pennington, Vinny or O'Brien.

Is Sanchez a "winner" because his team literally carried him all season long to the playoffs a couple of times?

Lord knows, the endless list of Nagle, Geno, Hackenberg, Darnold, Wilson (so far) types are not "winners" in any form.

I also continue to argue that wins/losses are not 100% on a QB.  They are not pitchers in baseball, W/L is not what it is in that sport.  Kirk Cousins is not the primary reason his teams don't win games.

Jets Fans want Peyton Manning hybridized with John Elway and Dan Marino and Walter Peyton all in one, and seem to reject anything less.

Meanwhile we play the absolutely dregs listed above (Wilson still TBD, but I doubt he's the Man).

Maybe, just maybe, our franchise might be better off going 8-9, 9-8, 10-7 for a few years under a "not winner" QB's who can put up 4,300 yards and a 30+ to 10 INT ratio, and see how that goes.

Hell, almost every season Cousins has started would be the all-time more productive season for a Jets QB. 

Mind boggling, we demand only the best, while accepting and hyping up the absolute worst when it comes to QB's.

 

If mediocre team results is the goal, Kirk Cousins is your man. He'll put up great stats and lose enough to keep you right around .500 ball.  He's got a decade long proven track record of QB'ing teams to OK results in the Win Loss column. Personally, I want more than that. I don't want .500 ball. I want a perennial contender and SB winner. 

If being better than the Jets' tragic list of post-Pennington QBs is your litmus test, I'd say your standards are far too low. Cousins is not a winner. He's not a loser either. He occupies the space in between and will trap a team into a never ending cycle of mediocrity if  they become fooled by his stellar stat-line when they really should be looking at his winning percentage.

  

[Warfish]

38 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

If mediocre team results is the goal, Kirk Cousins is your man.

67-70% Completion Rate, 4,000-4,500 Passing Yards, 30-35 TD's to 12 or less INT's is my goal for production from the QB position.

Winning as many games as we lose is, right now, my goal for the Jets Organization.

Give us a QB who can produce to that level, and if the team is built correctly, we won't be mediocre.

Quote

If being better than the Jets' tragic list of post-Pennington QBs is your litmus test, I'd say your standards are far too low.

As opposed to what seem to be your standards:  Endless lopsided losing seasons and well-below-league-average QB production with the only consolation prize being vague "hope", mixed with unearned hype, because the crappy QB is "young and with potential"?

Quote

Cousins is not a winner. He's not a loser either.

So far, Wilson is a loser.

As was Darnold.

As was Geno.

As was Hacken....oh, wait, he never ever saw the field, lol.  First time in NFL history.

As was Sanchez, outside of playoff games the team carried him to.

As was Clemens

As was Nagle.

How patient are you at this age Sonny, honestly?  Wouldn't it be nice to see some actual wins for a change?

When you're the Jets this last decade+, simple mediocrity would be a massive improvement.

And you don't go from worst in the NFL to well-above-mediocre in one step.  

Maybe that's some Jets Fans problem, they want the easy instant on-step fix to all our problems......there are no easy fixes or free rides. 

[Hex]

16 minutes ago, Warfish said:

67-70% Completion Rate, 4,000-4,500 Passing Yards, 30-35 TD's to 12 or less INT's is my goal for production from the QB position.

Winning as many games as we lose is, right now, my goal for the Jets Organization.

Give us a QB who can produce to that level, and if the team is built correctly, we won't be mediocre.

As opposed to what seem to be your standards:  Endless lopsided losing seasons and well-below-league-average QB production with the only consolation prize being vague "hope", mixed with unearned hype, because the crappy QB is "young and with potential"?

So far, Wilson is a loser.

As was Darnold.

As was Geno.

As was Hacken....oh, wait, he never ever saw the field, lol.  First time in NFL history.

As was Sanchez, outside of playoff games the team carried him to.

As was Clemens

As was Nagle.

How patient are you at this age Sonny, honestly?  Wouldn't it be nice to see some actual wins for a change?

When you're the Jets this last decade+, simple mediocrity would be a massive improvement.

And you don't go from worst in the NFL to well-above-mediocre in one step.  

Maybe that's some Jets Fans problem, they want the easy instant on-step fix to all our problems......there are no easy fixes or free rides. 

You think Cousins would do very good here? He's sitting at 6-7 right now (As he has always) and has Adam Thielen, Justin Jefferson and Dalvin Cook to help him. His stats are great but throwing 300 yards a game with a 4:1 TD/INT ratio won't get him anywhere if he goes .500 every season. I would rather have a QB who has potential to win rather than a stat-wonder QB who doesn't take his team anywhere. I bet you if Zach had a healthy Thielen, Jefferson, and Cook he would be much more successful. Now this isn't another 'bad team around him' excuse, as Moore and Carter are obviously very good, but Cousins is clearly in the better situation currently, and it's a question mark how he would do here.

 

As you said, there are no easy fixes or free rides. Cousins would be an 'easy fix' that doesn't take the team anywhere

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, Hex said:

You think Cousins would do very good here?

Yes, I think we made a mistake chasing the dragon of Sam Darnold and failing to sign Kirk Cousins.

But more broadly, I think the idea of "all eggs, one basket, top draft pick, start them day 1, no competition, rinse and repeat" has been a complete failure here in every possible way so far.

1 minute ago, Hex said:

His stats are great but throwing 300 yards a game with a 4:1 TD/INT ratio won't get him anywhere if he goes .500 every season.

There is an amazing amount of cognitive dissonance in this statement.

Tell me, how does having an ultra-accurate QB throwing for 300 yards and a 4:1 TD:INT ratio HURT our winning chances vs. what we have seen from our QB's the past decade or so?

1 minute ago, Hex said:

I would rather have a QB who has potential to win rather than a stat-wonder QB who doesn't take his team anywhere.

And honestly, how has all that supposed "potential" felt so far? 

Does it feel good to be perennially winning 2-5 games a year with the 32nd rated QB?

Because "potential".

 

[Hex]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Tell me, how does having an ultra-accurate QB throwing for 300 yards and a 4:1 TD:INT ratio HURT our winning chances vs. what we have seen from our QB's the past decade or so?

I don't know, ask Cousins. He's playing his best football ever in the past 2 seasons and yet in the same time frame he's a measly 13-16. The Jets are worse but I wouldn't count on Cousins playing as well here. 

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

But more broadly, I think the idea of "all eggs, one basket, top draft pick, start them day 1, no competition, rinse and repeat" has been a complete failure here in every possible way so far.

I agree with this statement, but there's a difference between 'no competition' and 'let's invest everything in a QB who plays well but loses half of his games'. Even if you argue that Cousins is losing games because of how bad the defense is, he will do even worse here. 

 

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Does it feel good to be perennially winning 2-5 games a year with the 32nd rated QB?

No, it doesn't, but I doubt the Vikings fans are feeling great now either. I would rather roll the dice over and over again in hopes for a 6 instead of a 3 every time