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Zach Wilson Is TERRIBLE!


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3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Are you talking about 4 int's and getting benched?

No talking about the record setting performance he had his first game. The game  against Buffalos #1 D at the time was a tough one for anyone. Remember we all thought LaFleur sucked before the Mike White game, thought Moore sucked too. Zach may have a higher ceiling theoretically but this offense never ran better then that first game with Mike White, 

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Are you talking about Zach's 4 INT's against the Pats?

Lol, don't worry, we'll see how Zach does against those same Bills soon enough.

 

This Mike White fascination is out of control still. 

You don't have to like Zach, that's a reasonable view - but we really do need to stop with Mike White.  He's not a good NFL QB.  He's a career practice squad player.

He was clearly exposed when a team decided to make him throw the ball more than 5 yards.

Zach was very bad yesterday - but enough with Mike White.

 

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9 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

No talking about the record setting performance he had his first game. The game  against Buffalos #1 D at the time was a tough one for anyone. Remember we all thought LaFleur sucked before the Mike White game, thought Moore sucked too. Zach may have a higher ceiling theoretically but this offense never ran better then that first game with Mike White, 

Remember when Zach’s biggest believers wanted to hide him from the #26 ranked Fins defense?

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Just now, FidelioJet said:

This Mike White fascination is out of control still. 

Probably because the Bengals game was one of the two best QB'd games we have seen this year (the other being Johnson against the Colts), and one of the best production games for a Jets QB in ~20 years. 

Just now, FidelioJet said:

You don't have to like Zach, that's a reasonable view

I have no personal feelings for players.  It's all business.

Zach Wilson is the worst starting QB in the NFL.  That is where all my opinions start.

Just now, FidelioJet said:

 - but we really do need to stop with Mike White.  He's not a good NFL QB.  He's a career practice squad player.

Who outplayed the #2 overall pick soundly.

Just now, FidelioJet said:

He was clearly exposed when a team decided to make him throw the ball more than 5 yards.

Just like Zach was exposed against the Patriots (0 TD, 4 INT, 37 QBR), Broncos (0 TD, 2 INT, 42 QBR), Falcons (0 TD, 1 INT, 64 QBR), Texans (0 TD, 1 INT, 59 QBR) and Saints (0 TD, 0 INT, 59 QBR)?

Little double standardish there it seems.

If Zach Wilson played for anyone but us, you'd be making jokes about how bad he is right now.  We both know it. 

Just now, FidelioJet said:

Zach was very bad yesterday - but enough with Mike White.

Mike White is a stand in for "competent QB play". 

Which Zach isn't providing as yet.

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8 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

This Mike White fascination is out of control still. 

You don't have to like Zach, that's a reasonable view - but we really do need to stop with Mike White.  He's not a good NFL QB.  He's a career practice squad player.

He was clearly exposed when a team decided to make him throw the ball more than 5 yards.

Zach was very bad yesterday - but enough with Mike White.

 

That's "HOF jersey Mike White".

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12 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Probably because the Bengals game was one of the two best QB'd games we have seen this year (the other being Johnson against the Colts), and one of the best production games for a Jets QB in ~20 years. 

I have no personal feelings for players.  It's all business.

Zach Wilson is the worst starting QB in the NFL.  That is where all my opinions start.

Who outplayed the #2 overall pick soundly.

Just like Zach was exposed against the Patriots (0 TD, 4 INT, 37 QBR), Broncos (0 TD, 2 INT, 42 QBR), Falcons (0 TD, 1 INT, 64 QBR), Texans (0 TD, 1 INT, 59 QBR) and Saints (0 TD, 0 INT, 59 QBR)?

Little double standardish there it seems.

If Zach Wilson played for anyone but us, you'd be making jokes about how bad he is right now.  We both know it. 

Mike White is a stand in for "competent QB play". 

Which Zach isn't providing as yet.

Mike White is not an NFL starting caliber QB. He's a 4th year player that is capable of checking down for 4 quarters, asked to do more and he's incapable.  I say good for him.  I very much enjoyed that win....

Zach is a rookie that is developing and needs as many reps as he can get.  He had a very bad day yesterday but a very good one a week ago.  Zach has some real, serious and worrisome mental issues he needs to work through - no doubt about it.

But, as much as you might want, Zach Wilson playing poorly is not going to make Mike White good.

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1 hour ago, jgb said:

The only way Wilson’s jersey is going into the HOF is if he is wearing one when he visits as a tourist 

All will depend on whether his boss at State Farm in Provo allows him to take a long weekend to make the trip. 

He'll already have taken several days off in the fall to handle Offensive Coordinator duties for the Provo Bulldogs, so he might not have enough vacation days to make it work.

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9 hours ago, Warfish said:

70.9% Completion, 216 YPG, 12 TD to 6 INT in 8 games, in which he is 4-4.   96.1 QB Rate.

Not world-breaking by any measure for a 2nd year QB, but I'd be pretty happy if Zach Wilson was putting up a stat-line that looked like that in his 8 games.  Tua's durability seems to be his biggest problem at this point.  My brother, the Phins fan, loves him, and thinks the "ready to move on" talk is fan and media B.S.

Herbert this year is obvious better producing (and more durable) than Tua, no doubt, at 67.1%, 294 YPG, 30 TD and 11 INT w/ a 100.3 QB Rate.  That's top 10 QB territory.

As a comparison, Wilson, is 56.1%, 193 YPG, 6 TD to 11 INT in 9 games, in which he is 3-7.  A 65.3 QB Rate.

As I plant my face in my palm's I wonder when we will get a QB like Herbert or Burrow rather than the two heaping piles of sh*t we have dealt with the past 5 years. When was the last time a Jets QB broke the top 32 and was not competing with other teams freaking back ups ?

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3 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Mike White is not an NFL starting caliber QB. He's a 4th year player that is capable of checking down for 4 quarters, asked to do more and he's incapable.  I say good for him.  I very much enjoyed that win....

Zach is a rookie that is developing and needs as many reps as he can get.  He had a very bad day yesterday but a very good one a week ago.  Zach has some real, serious and worrisome mental issues he needs to work through - no doubt about it.

But, as much as you might want, Zach Wilson playing poorly is not going to make Mike White good.

Mike White is good, this bullsh*t crap I've been reading is based on nothing. Mike White started off good and probably given the chance maybe he could have improved as well but you fail to mention that. Zach is allowed to improve from pure sh*t while Mike White never gets another chance. What exactly are you basing Mike White not being good on ? He's 6-5 with a strong arm he plays smart and moves well in the pocket so for a QB in his first 3 starts to do that yet Zach has about 3 good quarters in 9 games Zach has played more games than Mike White and yet White looked the part and Zach looks worse than a high schooler. How in the hell do you know what Mike White could be ?? In the Same Respect how the hell could you just constantly be up Zachs ass giving him chance after chance and watching him fail at an alarming rate. If Zach put up numbers like White I would be ecstatic. Interceptions by a rookie are understandable not being able to hit the broad side of a barn is not.

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17 hours ago, JiFapono said:

There were a ton of red flags and level competition was one of them for sure.  Not just BYU players being better but as you mentioned, the teams they were playing would play the most mind-boggling defense schemes you've ever seen and some of the coverage he faced was just laughable.  Many of the highlight reel plays that were being used as celebrated plays, would never translate in the NFL mainly because he'd never see such ridiculous coverage schemes or DB's so incapable of making a play on the ball.  When you couple that with the poor mechanics, terrible pocket presence and inaccuracy, we're just getting the entire snowball effect now.  Raw prospect, huge project, basically has to broke down entirely and built back up on traits (which are starting to diminish) and for some reason the Jets thought this was the right place for that type of player with a rookie coaching staff coming off a damn near identical situation w/ Darnold.  It was just a bizarre decision to hand the reigns over to this kid the day he stepped foot in the building.  There really was nothing to indicate this was going to be seamless.  

I'm not as confident as you are that he can turn this around.  His bad, is how is this guy on the field bad and if we're really being honest with ourselves, his good, isnt that good.  It's basic NFL level QB skills.  There is no wow factor here at all.

His performance has certainly underwhelmed, but I also think him (much like Lawrence, and Fields to an extent) are in the wrong system.  

Wilson is a vertical threat guy, everything feeds off with the safeties.  Aside from Moore, we have absolutely no one that makes a vertical threat, and he's been injured.  I swear I think Mims is just jogging out there, the guy isn't even trying.  Second, the system is based very much on quick passing and intermediate passing that plays off the run game.  The outside run isn't really influencing the free safety nearly as much as the linebackers, so your primary target is to get linebackers out of position.  Hence why a guy like Mike White would look great, because he's not a vertical QB.  I haven't seen much adjustment towards Wilson's strengths, but we also don't have the people to make those adjustments.  I almost feel like the entire coaching staff is treating this season as a tryout for talent rather than full blown coaching.  

Piggybacking off that content, my initial comp for Wilson was Jordan Love.  A guy that needs at least a year to adjust, and an offense catered to his strengths.  The Jets need to add more speed to the offense, so that safeties have to actually be careful about coming up in the box.  I'm not going to write him off until we do so, but I'm not sure if we would be willing to take that chance.  

For one, I never understood the Corey Davis signing.  From rumors, they sent out offers to like 4 guys, and whoever signed first got the deal.  Davis is fine as a No. 2, but I can tell from years of watching him that he's not a No. 1 guy.  I don't know if they expected Mims to take a massive leap, but he just doesn't fit the system (neither has the speed/YAC ability of a Deebo/Ayuik, nor the route preciseness of Kupp/Woods), and doesn't fit the vertical threat that Wilson needs.  

If we look at young QBs, who have taken off, we see Mahomes get thrust into a perfect situation.  He has probably the best vertical threat in the game, along with one of the best intermediate threats in Kelce.  They set up that team to be exactly what it needs to be to match his talent.  We see Herbert have basically an All Pro WR duo in Allen/Williams with a good TE in Henry until this year because he's a gunslinger type that allows his guys to make plays on the ball.  He's not going to work throwing to Crowder/WW Fodder.  

I see teams building around the QB's strengths, and we haven't done so.  We need more speed and we need guy that can actually play. 

Here's a hypothetical trade, since I think we talked about this in the draft forum before.  Jalen Reagor for Denzel Mims.  Who hangs up? 

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7 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Mike White is not an NFL starting caliber QB. He's a 4th year player that is capable of checking down for 4 quarters, asked to do more and he's incapable.  I say good for him.  I very much enjoyed that win....

Zach is a rookie that is developing and needs as many reps as he can get.  He had a very bad day yesterday but a very good one a week ago.  Zach has some real, serious and worrisome mental issues he needs to work through - no doubt about it.

But, as much as you might want, Zach Wilson playing poorly is not going to make Mike White good.

He did not have a very good game a week ago. He had 3 good drives to start the game and did nothing for the entirety of the rest of the game.

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6 hours ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

He did not have a very good game a week ago. He had 3 good drives to start the game and did nothing for the entirety of the rest of the game.

Patently incorrect.  Zach played well, the team around him was awful at that point.

If you refuse to see good play by our QB, I won't argue with you anymore - but Wilson was very good against the Eagles.

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37 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

....but Wilson was very good against the Eagles.

It so sad how low your standard have fallen for "very good" QB play.

I'll say it again, if Wilson was a Patriot, Dolphin or Bill, you'd be laughing at him right now and calling him a clear-cut bust pick.

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12 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It so sad how low your standard have fallen for "very good" QB play.

I'll say it again, if Wilson was a Patriot, Dolphin or Bill, you'd be laughing at him right now and calling him a clear-cut bust pick.

I find it sad to see that you're so blinded by your dislike for the kid that you can't accept his good play.

Honestly, I really do think you believe what you're saying - but you're wrong.  Your bias is so dug in you just don't see the good.  There's plenty there to be optimistic about....Certainly plenty to be worried about too.

Yes, if I was a Bills or Dolphins fan (Pat Fans are too duechy to discuss) I would have been impressed with Zach's performance against the Eagles.   

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6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I find it sad to see that you're so blinded by your dislike for the kid that you can't accept his good play.

It's interesting that you continue to play on emotion (dislike, hate, etc.) while I'm strictly discussing quality of play on the field and levels of production and ranking against other QB's.

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

There's plenty there to be optimistic about....Certainly plenty to be worried about too.

Don't hurt your ass on that fence you keep sitting on. 

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Yes, if I was a Bills or Dolphins fan (Pat Fans are too duechy to discuss) I would have been impressed with Zach's performance against the Eagles.   

Sure you would have.

Fair point on Pats fans tho....

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18 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It's interesting that you continue to play on emotion (dislike, hate, etc.) while I'm strictly discussing quality of play on the field and levels of production and ranking against other QB's.

Don't hurt your ass on that fence you keep sitting on. 

Sure you would have.

Fair point on Pats fans tho....

I point to emotion because there's really no other way to see how you can't look at some of his performances and not see the positive.

Your second comment clearly proves that point.  Telling me I'm sitting on the fence, as if that's a bad thing, because I can see the good and bad in his performance.  

That is EXACTLY the problem.  People dig in and refuse to acknowledge anything other than their argument.  

I can see and be optimistic about some of the good things he's done - the progress he's made in his decision making, no more hero ball. checking down, throwing the ball away..That is all massive progress and reason for optimism.  I can watch a performance like the Eagles game and come away seeing many of the very good things he did...And there was plenty.

But I can also see a game like last week when he is wildly and bizarrely off target - it's not a normal - hey he just a hey he just missed a throw kinda thing - there's something really concerning there.

That's not fence sitting, it's being objective.  By your own statement, being objective is a negative - I will be objective in my opinions and not lock onto one position simply because it was the first one I took.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I point to emotion because there's really no other way to see how you can't look at some of his performances and not see the positive.

Because factually, cold and emotionlessly, objectively, there is very little to point to material improvement of the level that would be required for Zach to be a top 10 NFL QB.

And no, a few drives against the Eagles before a complete shutdown is not what I would call "a good game".

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Your second comment clearly proves that point.  Telling me I'm sitting on the fence, as if that's a bad thing, because I can see the good and bad in his performance.

I'm telling you you're sitting on a fence because you're doing it consciously, so as not to be "wrong on the internet" when your full throated and passionate defense of Wilson turns out to be wrong. 

You'll then pivot, and point to the "well, there are concerns" one lines in otherwise hearty, robust homer-like Wilson-is-gonna-be-great posts, and claim you knew all along "there were concerns". 

Mate, I'm not new at this, I know when someone is engaging in a hedge. :lol:

Quote

That is EXACTLY the problem.  People dig in and refuse to acknowledge anything other than their argument.  

I can see and be optimistic about some of the good things he's done - the progress he's made in his decision making, no more hero ball. checking down, throwing the ball away..That is all massive progress and reason for optimism.  I can watch a performance like the Eagles game and come away seeing many of the very good things he did...And there was plenty.

But I can also see a game like last week when he is wildly and bizarrely off target - it's not a normal - hey he just a hey he just missed a throw kinda thing - there's something really concerning there.

That's not fence sitting, it's being objective.  By your own statement, being objective is a negative - I will be objective in my opinions and not lock onto one position simply because it was the first one I took.

There is nothing objective about your Wilson opinions to-date, as I see it.  Your cute and obvious hedge-one-liners notwithstanding.

We will simply have to agree to disagree, but I look forward to your future "well, I was right about Zach, I always said there were concerns" posts circa 2023.

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Patently incorrect.  Zach played well, the team around him was awful at that point.

If you refuse to see good play by our QB, I won't argue with you anymore - but Wilson was very good against the Eagles.

I haven't given up on Zach although it's pretty clear he shouldn't have been handed the starting job this year.  Wilson didn't suck against the Eagles.  The problem of saying he was very good is we actually get to watch other NFL games.  Very good QB play in the NFL isn't objectively at all like Zach was against the Eagles.  It's an entirely different level of play.  

The reality of the NFL is very good QB play, like very good WR play is at an astoundingly high level.  Zach's play against the Eagles was by any comparative basis was low level pedestrian.  

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This is why I want to go best WR in the draft if there is one heads and shoulders above the rest.  look at chase in cincy.

If wilson continues with his worm burners let him and Mike White have an open comp next year.  

 

If neither of them are the answer we could possibly have our own TB situation where a top tier QB would want to come in with all the pieces around them.

my $0.02

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21 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I haven't given up on Zach although it's pretty clear he shouldn't have been handed the starting job this year.  Wilson didn't suck against the Eagles.  The problem of saying he was very good is we actually get to watch other NFL games.  Very good QB play in the NFL isn't objectively at all like Zach was against the Eagles.  It's an entirely different level of play.  

The reality of the NFL is very good QB play, like very good WR play is at an astoundingly high level.  Zach's play against the Eagles was by any comparative basis was low level pedestrian.  

Zach played very well relative to the QB play we have had the rest of the season.  That is it.  Gardner Minshew played better than Zach.

He threw a horrible pick and had another pass go through the hands of the Eagles’ LB; it was a poor decision and should have never been thrown.

He had several completions to open receivers that negate the “bad WR play” that game because of the inaccuracy.  You throw every pass at outstretched arms’ length from the receiver and some are not gonna get catched.  That’s the reality of it.

”It’s a WR’s job to catch the ball!  They should catch whatever’s catchable!”  Well, it’s the QB’s job to complete passes.  Every QB should hit every possible pass by that metric.  It is unrealistic, but the WRs need more help from Zach than Zach needs help from WRs.

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9 hours ago, win4ever said:

His performance has certainly underwhelmed, but I also think him (much like Lawrence, and Fields to an extent) are in the wrong system.  

Wilson is a vertical threat guy, everything feeds off with the safeties.  Aside from Moore, we have absolutely no one that makes a vertical threat, and he's been injured.  I swear I think Mims is just jogging out there, the guy isn't even trying.  Second, the system is based very much on quick passing and intermediate passing that plays off the run game.  The outside run isn't really influencing the free safety nearly as much as the linebackers, so your primary target is to get linebackers out of position.  Hence why a guy like Mike White would look great, because he's not a vertical QB.  I haven't seen much adjustment towards Wilson's strengths, but we also don't have the people to make those adjustments.  I almost feel like the entire coaching staff is treating this season as a tryout for talent rather than full blown coaching.  

Piggybacking off that content, my initial comp for Wilson was Jordan Love.  A guy that needs at least a year to adjust, and an offense catered to his strengths.  The Jets need to add more speed to the offense, so that safeties have to actually be careful about coming up in the box.  I'm not going to write him off until we do so, but I'm not sure if we would be willing to take that chance.  

For one, I never understood the Corey Davis signing.  From rumors, they sent out offers to like 4 guys, and whoever signed first got the deal.  Davis is fine as a No. 2, but I can tell from years of watching him that he's not a No. 1 guy.  I don't know if they expected Mims to take a massive leap, but he just doesn't fit the system (neither has the speed/YAC ability of a Deebo/Ayuik, nor the route preciseness of Kupp/Woods), and doesn't fit the vertical threat that Wilson needs.  

If we look at young QBs, who have taken off, we see Mahomes get thrust into a perfect situation.  He has probably the best vertical threat in the game, along with one of the best intermediate threats in Kelce.  They set up that team to be exactly what it needs to be to match his talent.  We see Herbert have basically an All Pro WR duo in Allen/Williams with a good TE in Henry until this year because he's a gunslinger type that allows his guys to make plays on the ball.  He's not going to work throwing to Crowder/WW Fodder.  

I see teams building around the QB's strengths, and we haven't done so.  We need more speed and we need guy that can actually play. 

Here's a hypothetical trade, since I think we talked about this in the draft forum before.  Jalen Reagor for Denzel Mims.  Who hangs up? 

The challenge is, do we even know what Zach's strength is at this point?  I dont particularly see a strength in his game, everything seems like a challenge.  There is nothing I've identified watching him so far that looks comfortable.  I know you say he's a vertical deep ball guy but his deep ball isnt very good and the All22 shows him quite often, not taking the shot down field, sometimes ignoring wide open WR's.  I also hate the idea that you draft a player at #2 overall and he can only play 1 system but I dont disagree that the players vs. the system is an odd match.  I just dont know what system is a fit for Zach.  Prior to the season, all I heard was how Zach is perfect for this offense and this system and people gushing about how smooth this transition will be based on what he did at BYU and now he's a mess and nothing seems to work.

 

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57 minutes ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

Zach played very well relative to the QB play we have had the rest of the season.

I'm sorry, but no, he didn't.

His Eagles game performance would still rank below the games played by White, Johnson and Flacco in terms of QB play this year.

It was, for a brief period in the first half, better play than he, Wilson, had mostly showed this year.  That's the extent of it.

 

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12 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I'm sorry, but no, he didn't.

His Eagles game performance would still rank below the games played by White, Johnson and Flacco in terms of QB play this year.

It was, for a brief period in the first half, better play than he, Wilson, had mostly showed this year.  That's the extent of it.

 

You’re right, should have said compared to his other performances.

It’s a terrible feeling when 3 subpar back up QBs play better than your #2 overall pick.  I’m just coping that’s all.

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3 minutes ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

You’re right, should have said compared to his other performances.

It’s a terrible feeling when 3 subpar back up QBs play better than your #2 overall pick.  I’m just coping that’s all.


More people need to just simply admit that this is what’s going on in their heads when they try to dump on White/Flacco/Johnson.

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17 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Mike White is not an NFL starting caliber QB. He's a 4th year player that is capable of checking down for 4 quarters, asked to do more and he's incapable.  I say good for him.  I very much enjoyed that win....

Zach is a rookie that is developing and needs as many reps as he can get.  He had a very bad day yesterday but a very good one a week ago.  Zach has some real, serious and worrisome mental issues he needs to work through - no doubt about it.

But, as much as you might want, Zach Wilson playing poorly is not going to make Mike White good.

Mike White was a development QB with an excellent arm and mechanics.  He's also 6'5" and can see the field.  He didn't come into the league with the hype but he was drafted for a reason.   He can absolutely drive the ball down the field.  Yes he can check down, something Zach apparently can't do.  He's big question mark coming out is he's heavy footed in the pocket.  We had a decent not great QB in Ken O'Brein who was also slow footed in the pocket.  He was miles better than Zach coming from a nothing program.  

What might make Mike White good is getting reps with the first team.  Starting for 4 or 5 weeks consecutively and being treated like he has an opportunity.   Zach sucking doesn't make Mike White good.   Mike White not getting a chance because Zach was anointed doesn't prove he's incapable of becoming a decent NFL starter.  A decent NFL starter would be a breakthrough for the NY Jets.  

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17 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Mike White was a development QB with an excellent arm and mechanics.  He's also 6'5" and can see the field.  He didn't come into the league with the hype but he was drafted for a reason.   He can absolutely drive the ball down the field.  Yes he can check down, something Zach apparently can't do.  He's big question mark coming out is he's heavy footed in the pocket.  We had a decent not great QB in Ken O'Brein who was also slow footed in the pocket.  He was miles better than Zach coming from a nothing program.  

What might make Mike White good is getting reps with the first team.  Starting for 4 or 5 weeks consecutively and being treated like he has an opportunity.   Zach sucking doesn't make Mike White good.   Mike White not getting a chance because Zach was anointed doesn't prove he's incapable of becoming a decent NFL starter.  A decent NFL starter would be a breakthrough for the NY Jets.  

Mike White is a practice squad level QB.  Nothing more, nothing less.

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I think we can all agree that Jets fans collectively have PTSD from the last decade of their "highly touted" young QB's. That being said, looking at as objectively as I can, Zack Wilson so far has shown us LESS than Darnold, Smith, and Sanchez did in their rookie seasons BY A MILE. Yes, the team has been decimated by injuries and didn't have a lot of talent to begin with, but that cannot excuse the mental lapses and lack of consistency, accuracy and touch Wilson is guilty of this season.  All of those things are alarming, to say the least.  

Not sure how this is going to pan out but I have very nauseous feeling in my stomach.

Joe Douglas has somehow managed to have this team in worse shape right now than the day he inherited the team 2-1/2 years ago. 

Gentlemen, the Jets are the definition of a mickey mouse organization, and all of the clever excuses that are made here for JD and Wilson will not change the fact that this team is a disgrace and an embarrassment. After year two of Gase, I felt like that was the most dejected and disappointed I've ever been in 45 years of Jets fandom and didn't think I could ever feel any worse. 

WRONG!!!

This ******* team somehow finds a way of moving the line as to how low their fandom can sink. Truly pathetic.

  

 

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