rtnelson Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 Just now, jgb said: Well he's scored 7 receiving points all year with Zach as QB. So sure let's assume he would double that today. I agree, we shouldn't assume our best playmaker will make any plays in a game where we were desperately in need of someone to make plays. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, jgb said: Name terms and stakes. I never doubted your confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 1 minute ago, rtnelson said: I agree, we shouldn't assume our best playmaker will make any plays in a game where we were desperately in need of someone to make plays. Yeah, sorry for mentioning facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Just now, rtnelson said: I never doubted your confidence. If you think I'm wrong, let's make a charity bet. A good cause wins either way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Just now, jgb said: Yeah, sorry for mentioning facts. With those facts we should assume that he'll never score another TD with Zach as QB because "doubling season production" in one game is crazy! Get out of here with that nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post T0mShane Posted December 20, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Sonny Werblin said: Need the endzone view Need the Australian All 22 interpretation to determine how the 52 other players on the Jets let Zach Wilson down. 1 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, rtnelson said: With those facts we should assume that he'll never score another TD with Zach as QB because "doubling season production" in one game is crazy! Get out of here with that nonsense. Considering that's not what I said, congrats on defeating yourself in an argument. What I did do was sarcastically suggest that it makes sense to "assume" Elijah would result in 7 points in this game when he has one receiving TD with Wilson all year. Definitely less than 50% chance by the numbers. There are a bunch of numbers between 100 and zero, you know. Try them out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryu79 Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 29 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: Didnt see Corey Davis out there today, you? Did he require someone to cover him today? How about Elijah Moore? Did he have multiple players cover him today? Did he contribute 141 yards and a TD today? That drop by Keelan on third down was brutal in the first half too - we had momentum and we're playing with confidence... Moments like that where the stars just aren't aligning for us right now. You expect him and Crowder to pick up slack with Davis and Moore out and we couldn't get them involved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 1 minute ago, jgb said: If you think I'm wrong, let's make a charity bet. A good cause wins either way. What bet is there even to make? Especially against something that won't be decided for several years. Look, you think he sucks and that's fine. Just because I find fault in some of your logic doesn't mean I don't respect the fact that you hold that opinion. We can all see why you think the way you do, even if it is shortsighted in my opinion. The kid is young and raw, he's going to be a product of the system and players around him. Compared to how he was playing at the start of the year, it's night and day. Seriously go watch some of the film from the first few games. Looks like a completely different QB in decision making. He is improving at a pretty good pace, but the Jets aren't a good enough team especially with the injuries around him. You don't want to believe that, and that's fine. 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post T0mShane Posted December 20, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 20, 2021 He is the worst quarterback in the league statistically. He is the worst quarterback in the league under pressure. He is the worst quarterback in the league against the blitz. This isn’t George Fant’s fault. It’s not Denzel Mims’ fault. He’s just bad and will remain bad for the rest of the season. He might be bad next year. Just deal with it. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 8 minutes ago, jgb said: Considering that's not what I said, congrats on defeating yourself in an argument. What I did do was sarcastically suggest that it makes sense to "assume" Elijah would result in 7 points in this game when he has one receiving TD with Wilson all year. Definitely less than 50% chance by the numbers. There are a bunch of numbers between 100 and zero, you know. Try them out! Dang, now Elijah Moore is only a product of Zach Wilson and cannot be schemed for. Moore is good, and has gotten much better since the season has gone on. To think that he would make several plays in the game to get us in better position to score a TD isn't crazy. He doesn't need to be the one with the ball in the endzone to have a huge factor in the game. Their #1 CB would be against Moore instead of Crowder, and Crowder gets the #2 and on down the line. Even just his presence gives the team better matchups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GangGreened Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Well at least he didn’t turn the ball over and played well in the first half. The second half was pretty bad. Overall, a decent game but not impressive either. It’s a low bar for a lot of people though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, rtnelson said: Dang, now Elijah Moore is only a product of Zach Wilson and cannot be schemed for. Moore is good, and has gotten much better since the season has gone on. To think that he would make several plays in the game to get us in better position to score a TD isn't crazy. He doesn't need to be the one with the ball in the endzone to have a huge factor in the game. Their #1 CB would be against Moore instead of Crowder, and Crowder gets the #2 and on down the line. Even just his presence gives the team better matchups. I didn't say it was crazy. I said I believe his expected-impact would be less than a TD and thus 7 points should not be assumed. Why you trying to drive this into a debate of extremes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, T0mShane said: He is the worst quarterback in the league statistically. He is the worst quarterback in the league under pressure. He is the worst quarterback in the league against the blitz. This isn’t George Fant’s fault. It’s not Denzel Mims’ fault. He’s just bad and will remain bad for the rest of the season. He might be bad next year. Just deal with it. He's improved throughout the year in decision making. He's still raw. He might be a lot better next year. Just deal with the fact that some people see improvement positively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 1 minute ago, GangGreened said: Well at least he didn’t turn the ball over and played well in the first half. The second half was pretty bad. Overall, a decent game but not impressive either. It’s a low bar for a lot of people though. He did turn the ball over. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crusher Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 6 minutes ago, T0mShane said: He is the worst quarterback in the league statistically. He is the worst quarterback in the league under pressure. He is the worst quarterback in the league against the blitz. This isn’t George Fant’s fault. It’s not Denzel Mims’ fault. He’s just bad and will remain bad for the rest of the season. He might be bad next year. Just deal with it. Yeah but today he was a poor man’s Mike White. Maybe next game he become Mike White good but also throws the ball 45 yards in the air? Like in one throw I mean. Kid can’t do nothing about the crap he’s put on the field this year but he can improve next game. Maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Just now, jgb said: I didn't say it was crazy. I said I believe his expected-impact would be less than a TD and thus 7 points should not be assumed. Why you trying to drive this into a debate of extremes? I just don't think it's crazy to assume that the team has a MUCH better chance of scoring 7 more points when their best playmaker is on the field instead of on IR. Obviously I'm not saying 100%, but it's a single touchdown difference which isn't saying too much. We don't know what would have happened. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 13 minutes ago, rtnelson said: What bet is there even to make? Especially against something that won't be decided for several years. Look, you think he sucks and that's fine. Just because I find fault in some of your logic doesn't mean I don't respect the fact that you hold that opinion. We can all see why you think the way you do, even if it is shortsighted in my opinion. The kid is young and raw, he's going to be a product of the system and players around him. Compared to how he was playing at the start of the year, it's night and day. Seriously go watch some of the film from the first few games. Looks like a completely different QB in decision making. He is improving at a pretty good pace, but the Jets aren't a good enough team especially with the injuries around him. You don't want to believe that, and that's fine. Whoa, who accused you of disrespect? You seem very confident and I gave you the opportunity to raise easy money for a good cause in a friendly wager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 6 minutes ago, jgb said: I didn't say it was crazy. I said I believe his expected-impact would be less than a TD and thus 7 points should not be assumed. Why you trying to drive this into a debate of extremes? On second thought, I think this explains a lot. It seems like you value playmakers much less than everyone else. Therefore, offense good = QB good. Offense bad = QB bad. This really does make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Just now, rtnelson said: On second thought, I think this explains a lot. It seems like you value playmakers much less than everyone else. Therefore, offense good = QB good. Offense bad = QB bad. This really does make sense. No, I value math over baloney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doitny Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 1 hour ago, OilfieldJet said: It’s not too late. We aren’t helping him. Zach should sit until coaching gets a clue and the players around him are better. no Zach is going to face blitzing teams like this. in fact this one is in there division. he needs to see them and get the reps. in fact it was a mistake not to play him against Miami the first time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Just now, doitny said: no Zach is going to face blitzing teams like this. in fact this one is in there division. he needs to see them and get the reps. in fact it was a mistake not to play him against Miami the first time. Totally agree. I want him to get as many reps as possible. If they hadn't hid him against Miami a couple weeks ago, good chance he would've won this game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal N of Provo Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, rtnelson said: On second thought, I think this explains a lot. It seems like you value playmakers much less than everyone else. Therefore, offense good = QB good. Offense bad = QB bad. This really does make sense. No. Here is his algorithm of Zach evaluation. Any Question or Situation = Zach Bad Any Trait of Zach = Bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 1 minute ago, jgb said: Whoa, who accused you of disrespect? You seem very confidence and I gave you the opportunity to raise money for a good cause in a friendly wager. You could've just said you weren't as confidence as you let on. Not wanting to make a bet against an internet stranger that will take at least a year to be fully realized does not mean I lack confidence in my opinion. My opinion is simple. Zach has talent. Zach is improving. Zach could be a pretty darn QB one day. I am also of the opinion that "Zach is the worst rated QB this season" doesn't accurately forecast his future. Which is why we're here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, doitny said: no Zach is going to face blitzing teams like this. in fact this one is in there division. he needs to see them and get the reps. in fact it was a mistake not to play him against Miami the first time. His knee was giving out on plays against Houston, he needed another week to heal for sure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said: No. Here is his algorithm of Zach evaluation. Any Question or Situation = Zach Bad Any Trait of Zach = Bad That's an oversimplification: Bottom 3 in league in TD %, INT %, QBR, QB Rating, and a bunch of other metrics - Zach bad. Then, when you hear this - RRRREEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, rtnelson said: Not wanting to make a bet against an internet stranger that will take at least a year to be fully realized does not mean I lack confidence in my opinion. My opinion is simple. Zach has talent. Zach is improving. Zach could be a pretty darn QB one day. I am also of the opinion that "Zach is the worst rated QB this season" doesn't accurately forecast his future. Which is why we're here. Smart to not bet. See, deep down you know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, rtnelson said: His knee was giving out on plays against Houston, he needed another week to heal for sure. That’s fine if true, but Saleh didn’t say that was the reason. He said he didn’t want Wilson to face heavy blitzing his first game back. If it was all about his knee, he should have said as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 23 minutes ago, jgb said: Smart to not bet. See, deep down you know I've never bet actual money on football in my life. Although I'm sure you feel like you're right about that one too. The odds certainly are in favor of ZW not becoming the future HOF Jets QB, or probably even lasting to his 5th year option. But the same could be said about every QB from last years draft right now except the single QB in probably the best rookie situation in history except maybe Ben Roethlisberger. The same can be said about every QB drafted in next years draft, and the one after that for the rest of time. The difference between you and I isn't "math". We all know the stats. You're taking the fact that he has played poorly, and using that to forecast his entire future. If you did that with me at 22, you'd have been absolutely wrong. What I do know is that the kid works hard, from all accounts is smart, and has physical talents that can succeed in this league. Combined with an OC that I think has really just begun to get a handle on being an NFL OC, I think there is really good potential for the future. You don't want to see it because "math". I get it. It's frustrating. I just choose to look at it from another angle, because the kid is getting better, a lot better. Even if the "math" doesn't necessarily dictate that at the moment. Go watch the games from the start of the season, especially ones that the "math" says he is better in. He's wasn't playing as well as he is now. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Just now, rtnelson said: I've never bet actual money on football in my life. Although I'm sure you feel like you're right about that one too. The odds certainly are in favor of ZW not becoming the future HOF Jets QB, or probably even lasting to his 5th year option. But the same could be said about every QB from last years draft right now except the single QB in probably the best rookie situation in history except maybe Ben Roethlisberger. The same can be said about every QB drafted in next years draft, and the one after that for the rest of time. The difference between you and I isn't "math". We all know the stats. You're taking the fact that he has played poorly, and using that to forecast his entire future. If you did that with me at 22, you'd have been absolutely wrong. What I do know is that the kid works hard, from all accounts is smart, and has physical talents that can succeed in this league. Combined with an OC that I think has really just begun to get a handle on being an NFL OC, I think there is really good potential for the future. You don't want to see it because "math". I get it. It's frustrating. I just choose to look at it from another angle, because the kid is getting better, a lot better. Even if the "math" doesn't necessarily dictate that at the moment. Just needling you. I don't doubt that he works hard and has talent. Those things got him drafted #2 overall. It was his invitation to headline the show. But now, he's gotta sing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtnelson Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, jgb said: Just needling you. I don't doubt that he works hard and has talent. Those things got him drafted #2 overall. It was his invitation to headline the show. But now, he's gotta sing. Have to be able to hit single notes before you attempt an opera. Kid was singing in Provo's Got Talent before he got to NY. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnold's Forehead Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Jet Nut said: Wasnt the final drive and they were the only two passes that were high. Thats not inaccurate, thats football. One was to Carter that he missed the other to Mims, clanked off of his hands, could have been caught and not just a 5 yards pass, was a 15 yard pass. I added both to my post. Thats all you got, thats him being easily rattled in the 2nd half? LOL No idea what QB play you normally watch but overthrowing a leaping 6'3" receiver is not "football". That's a bad pass. If that was Moore or Crowder it would have sailed over their heads for an int. Also ended the game with a bad pass to Cole. Had it been on target, Cole may have gone out passed or at the 1st down marker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, rtnelson said: Have to be able to hit single notes before you attempt an opera. Kid was singing in Provo's Got Talent before he got to NY. Yep. He needs to be built from the ground up. I hope JD brings in an experienced, young QB to push him this off season. When he was challenged for the starting role at BYU, he responded in a huge, positive way. I think his most ardent supporters sell him short. He's not as fragile and psychosocially vulnerable as they think. He can handle a little scare from below. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 7 minutes ago, jgb said: It was his invitation to headline the show. But now, he's gotta sing. 1 minute ago, rtnelson said: Have to be able to hit single notes before you attempt an opera. Kid was singing in Provo's Got Talent before he got to NY. I like this. jgb, you may have met your match when it comes to someone who can counter your analogies with another analogy! You 2 should have an analogy-off. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said: I like this. jgb, you may have met your match when it comes to someone who can counter your analogies with another analogy! You 2 should have an analogy-off. I concede. @rtnelson that was fire, bro. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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