Are Zach's dropbacks too deep?

[More Cowbell]

As I was watching the second half and the Fins were dialing up blitz after blitz, I found myself bewildered why zack was taking these 5 or 7 step drops. It should have been 3 steps and fire so the ball is out before the rush gets to him. I think this has been an issue in other games as well. I think with these deep drops, he is making it easier for edge rushers to get to him. Another issue is after he drops, he never steps up. 

[Darnold's Forehead]

Yes and it's the first thing I notice on every pass attempt.  If he doesn't start hanging in the pocket now, it's going to become increasingly difficult for him to manage pressure as his career continues.

And I understand the whole "extend plays" schtick, but the kid needs to stop running backwards.  There's a difference between escaping the pocket and buying time vs running backwards.  It makes a 10 yd pass a 30 yd pass and a 10 yd sack a 30 yd sack.

[NYJ37/12]

Zach is not calling plays

[The Crusher]

He’s been running backwards like forever, always. 

[jetswinbaby!]

Has this kid even ever played the position before?...

Cause it seems like he's learning everything on the fly...

[BRONX DUDE]

[jetstream23]

Quote

Are Zach's dropbacks too deep?

 

I actually thought they were too shallow for a while. lol

Then again, I thought he was throwing too low and behind a lot of receivers, like hitting their feet.  Now I see him overthrowing guys so quite honestly... I have no f**king idea if what he's trying to do is right.  I just know it's not really working too well right now.

[Snell41]

Zach is not calling plays

Correct, and we know that LaFleur saves the good plays for Mike White and Josh Johnson.


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[Warfish]

Zach doesn’t see the field well or at all at times.  So Zach holds the ball too long.

It’s not the Oline. It’s not his weapons. It’s not the playcalling.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

As I was watching the second half and the Fins were dialing up blitz after blitz, I found myself bewildered why zack was taking these 5 or 7 step drops. It should have been 3 steps and fire so the ball is out before the rush gets to him. I think this has been an issue in other games as well. I think with these deep drops, he is making it easier for edge rushers to get to him. Another issue is after he drops, he never steps up. 

He touched on that in the presser. They weren't doing quick drops in the 2nd half because of the D adjustments, switching to more man coverage that took away quick open guys underneath. So those longer dropbacks and longer-developing plays were by design.

[DetroitRed]

Sounds like a question for coach

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

Wilson doesn't decide how far he drops back. It is based on the play call. - a 3, 5 or 7 step drop.  

[Joe W. Namath]

He doesnt understand the mechanics of how to navigate the pocket.  The best qbs step up in the pocket when the rush is coming.  Hes not comfortable doing that right now so he keeps fading back.

[Hael]

He doesn't step up in the pocket.  He doesn't make the micro movements to navigate in the pocket effectively or to multitask.  He doesn't know where the pressure is coming from (either from the pre snap read, or from 'feeling' it like some guys can do) and he might be too short to really see well in the pocket.  In short, all his instincts tell him to go back and to roll out to his right b/c that's where he can exert some control via his athleticism.

Unfortunately if they don't burn this out of him fast, his career will almost assuredly be in jeopardy.  You don't live very long playing that way and the rules don't protect the qb like they do for pocket passers. 

More than anything else, that's what concerns me about his game.  You can see them scheming quick read and quick throws to try to simplify things for him, but once that first read breaks down, the odds of something bad happening are way too high.  As far as I can see, ZW getting badly injured is a question of when and not if.

[Wayne80]

Zach’s 7 and 8 step drops are going to revolutionize football forever

[More Cowbell]

7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He touched on that in the presser. They weren't doing quick drops in the 2nd half because of the D adjustments, switching to more man coverage that took away quick open guys underneath. So those longer dropbacks and longer-developing plays were by design.

I think that comes to the WR being able to win at the los. 

[heymangold]

7 hours ago, Snell41 said:

 

Correct, and we know that LaFleur saves the good plays for Mike White and Josh Johnson.


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See this

6 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Wilson doesn't decide how far he drops back. It is based on the play call. - a 3, 5 or 7 step drop.  

 

[More Cowbell]

6 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Wilson doesn't decide how far he drops back. It is based on the play call. - a 3, 5 or 7 step drop.  

I don't  think so. If a guy is open immediately, you don't  keep back peddling, you throw. I really can't  recall a time Zach took a short drop, he always seems to be running backwards. It wouldn't  be a bad thing if he was making his throws

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, More Cowbell said:

I don't  think so. If a guy is open immediately, you don't  keep back peddling, you throw. I really can't  recall a time Zach took a short drop, he always seems to be running backwards. It wouldn't  be a bad thing if he was making his throws

He was and is making the throw when guys are open.  His drops are fine. his pocket presence is fine.

Getting the ball out quickly is only a good idea when guys are open to get the ball out quickly.  

What I heard when he took a hit from the blindside and fumbled, in the pocket, was he held the ball too long - and it was his fault....but no one was open....So rather than back up to give himself time for someone to get open - you guys would rather him stand in a collapsing pocket to get hit.

Go look at the Eagles game when he had one WR that was capable of getting open - he stood in the pocket, stepped up and threw on time...

You need a pocket to stand in one - far too much pressure come up the middle.

[JustInFudge]

They been better as of late, for sure.  They were really bad to start the season.  3's turned into 5/6, 5's turned into 7/9, 7's turned into 9/10 and sometimes more.  It was really bad and throwing the timing off of everything.  It was his biggest issue for his timing being so off, but he seems to be doing a little bit better.  That said, he still drifts and looks to escape too soon.  Especially when he's not in rhythm and he's facing any sort of pressure.  He hasnt seemed to grasp when that last back foot drops, you cant continue dropping, the next motion has to be moving up into the pocket to manipulate space.  It is what all the greats do so well and hell, I see Mac Jones doing it weekly too. He still drifts back and to the side, yes, making him a little bit easier of a target for pass rushers.  It's going to be very hard for him to maintain consistent play with that habit.

As for yesterday, they were calling plays to beat man.  They take a little longer.  I dont think the drops were the issue as much as it was his eyes.  He doesnt have a great pocket presence and doenst seem to have a feel for pressure, and his eyes drop as soon as he has to avoid a rusher.  He's not great a being disciplined and moving with his eyes still down field.  He looks for room and then has to look up and find people.  And you'll notice WR's dont know what to do when he breaks pocket because he seemingly doesnt have a plan either.  He took a few sacks yesterday with wide open crossers because his eyes dropped to look at the rush. 

 

[More Cowbell]

22 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

He was and is making the throw when guys are open.  His drops are fine. his pocket presence is fine.

Getting the ball out quickly is only a good idea when guys are open to get the ball out quickly.  

What I heard when he took a hit from the blindside and fumbled, in the pocket, was he held the ball too long - and it was his fault....but no one was open....So rather than back up to give himself time for someone to get open - you guys would rather him stand in a collapsing pocket to get hit.

Go look at the Eagles game when he had one WR that was capable of getting open - he stood in the pocket, stepped up and threw on time...

You need a pocket to stand in one - far too much pressure come up the middle.

We are seeing two different things. On that play where he fumbled, Mims had beaten his man while crossing. He was behind him. Zach held the ball. He either didn't  see Mims or didn't  feel the pressure  coming. In any event he made no effort to get rid of the ball, even throwing it at Mims feet. That would have been about the only understandable time he dirted a ball. As far as his pocket presence, most of the time I don't  have a real problem with it, but this guy never steps up in the pocket to avoid the rush. If you drop back that means the edge rusher take an angle to get to where you are standing and the really good QB's time it and step up just as they arrive. Brady and Rogers are masters of this. I'm not saying Zack should be as good as them but he drops back and then runs right. This is going to get him killed and it is what got him injured. 

[FidelioJet]

3 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

We are seeing two different things. On that play where he fumbled, Mims had beaten his man while crossing. He was behind him. Zach held the ball. 

Nope.

He wisely didn't throw the ball into the arms of a leaping DL defender in his face.  He was directly in the throwing lane....If you watch the tape it's very clear - he was cocked, ready to throw and had to pull it down.  It wasn't out of fear..after he pulled it down - he went to his next read and was then winding up to throw again when he got hit.  Go ahead and watch the play again.

It doesn't really matter anymore - you guys are going to see whatever you want to see.  And from what I gather (I haven't seen this from you though - but many others) but it seems even if you see him succeed it's some type of JN moral shortcoming to acknowledge that as you would be fence sitting....

[WhartonJet]

8 hours ago, Warfish said:

Zach doesn’t see the field well or at all at times.  So Zach holds the ball too long.

It’s not the Oline. It’s not his weapons. It’s not the playcalling.

I agree.  This is the most alarming this I've noticed about Zach.  IMO interceptions and bouncing balls can be lived with and improved.  But, holding the ball too long and not sensing the rush are a death knell for QBs.  It shows he is not seeing the field (can't find anyone open), and makes him get hit too often because the OL can't hold blocks for that long.  

[More Cowbell]

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Nope.

He wisely didn't throw the ball into the arms of a leaping DL defender in his face.  He was directly in the throwing lane....If you watch the tape it's very clear - he was cocked, ready to throw and had to pull it down.  It wasn't out of fear..after he pulled it down - he went to his next read and was then winding up to throw again when he got hit.  Go ahead and watch the play again.

It doesn't really matter anymore - you guys are going to see whatever you want to see.  And from what I gather (I haven't seen this from you though - but many others) but it seems even if you see him succeed it's some type of JN moral shortcoming to acknowledge that as you would be fence sitting....

This is really getting old with you whining about Zach not getting praised. If he played well, I would say so. Go look at the game thread. I was singing his praises the entire first half and even during half time when someone critiqued the one bad pass made. With you, it is a freaking excuse festival every time he has his bad 2 qrts which is every game he played. Even when people aren't  specifically  talking about Zach you are right there saying stuff like don't  let yourself be caught saying good stuff about Zach or people should just be honest and say the don't  like him. Nobody made a predetermined choice they would not like Zach. If he was better at playing QB, everyone would love him. He isn't  so people are going to criticize him. 

[Ghost420]

7 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

He doesnt understand the mechanics of how to navigate the pocket.  The best qbs step up in the pocket when the rush is coming.  Hes not comfortable doing that right now so he keeps fading back.

He just isn't very good right now. Going to have to take HUGE jump in the offseason.

[FidelioJet]

6 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

This is really getting old with you whining about Zach not getting praised. If he played well, I would say so. Go look at the game thread. I was singing his praises the entire first half and even during half time when someone critiqued the one bad pass made. With you, it is a freaking excuse festival every time he has his bad 2 qrts which is every game he played. Even when people aren't  specifically  talking about Zach you are right there saying stuff like don't  let yourself be caught saying good stuff about Zach or people should just be honest and say the don't  like him. Nobody made a predetermined choice they would not like Zach. If he was better at playing QB, everyone would love him. He isn't  so people are going to criticize him. 

Not excuse making at all.  Just entirely untrue.  When he's bad I've said he's bad.

He played well yesterday, he played well against the Eagles...

When people are being fair I'll stop pointing out the bias.  There's an unwillingness by many around here to not accept anything positive.  

 

[Chrebetfan80]

guys are not getting open underneath fast,  dolphins switched to more press man later in the game  on their pressures and 2 man under, then when they would dropout they were dropping 7-8 into coverage.  When you have no where to go the ball cannot come out early. 

 

Early in the game the jets 1 were able to run the ball and 2 dolphins were playing more zone with their pressures. being in 2nd and 5-6 makes a big difference than 2nd and 11-12. 

[More Cowbell]

15 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Not excuse making at all.  Just entirely untrue.  When he's bad I've said he's bad.

He played well yesterday, he played well against the Eagles...

When people are being fair I'll stop pointing out the bias.  There's an unwillingness by many around here to not accept anything positive.  

 

He played well for 2 qrts in both games and poorly for 2 qrts. Saying he played well in both of those games is not being entirely honest

[Biggs]

He's a relatively short QB.  He needs to drop back a little deeper to have the angle to make the throws and see down the field.  Get used to it.   Go back and watch tape of Namath.  He couldn't run but he was amazingly quick at taking a deep drop and firing the ball out fast.  

The deep drop is hurting him because he's holding the ball instead of letting it go.  He's basically turned his quick release into a useless tool because he's holding the ball at the deep part of the drop rather than letting it go.  

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

I think that comes to the WR being able to win at the los. 

No doubt, and in such situations there's got to be a place to throw it early or enough time to wait for a play to develop so there's a place to throw it, and on too many plays there was neither. 

Either way, that longer dropback was, if not by design outright, at least hand in hand with or a byproduct of what they were calling by design, which was longer-distance pass plays because those quick short slants & such don't work when the receiver's not creating any daylight underneath. Even less so when blockers are getting through; not even by poor OL blocking - which also occurs - but by miscommunication and blown assignments with nobody even attempting to block a rusher (or two) with ears pinned back. A shorter dropback will (or could) get him sacked even faster in such circumstances, just by shortening the distance.

That said, a particularly-longer dropback was a habit of his (with impunity) at BYU, iirc from reading winter/spring writeups; not from watching every game of his (or even more than 1 game of his).

It can buy an extra couple yards of space, yes, but it also means his tackles now can't just block efforts to run around them outside but also opens up a potential rushing lane with an inside move, too. In such scenarios, where the iOL is handling its part, that then further closes up space to step up into a pocket; Wilson may not know when it happens until someone's already in his face or he feels someone touch him, because his job is to keep eyes downfield and trust the line, not look to his left (and maybe lose the primary read he's tracking) to see if the RE is trying to get to him via his LTs left or right (ditto on the other side).

Anyway, while I freely admit many posters here have a far better grasp of such nuance, I'm just imagining this through. So he may be making it harder on his OTs at times with such deep dropbacks, but the absence of doing so isn't going to make his WRs or TEs get open any faster anyway. Point being, he's not a pure villain nor a pure victim here: there's fault enough to go around. 

[The Crusher]

9 hours ago, Warfish said:

Zach doesn’t see the field well or at all at times.  So Zach holds the ball too long.

It’s not the Oline. It’s not his weapons. It’s not the playcalling.

I think a lot of what we are seeing from him stems from exactly that. He moves around a lot side to side and yes even backwards. He seems to not have the vision to  step up into the pocket effectively right now. 

[Dunnie]

As I was watching the second half and the Fins were dialing up blitz after blitz, I found myself bewildered why zack was taking these 5 or 7 step drops. It should have been 3 steps and fire so the ball is out before the rush gets to him. I think this has been an issue in other games as well. I think with these deep drops, he is making it easier for edge rushers to get to him. Another issue is after he drops, he never steps up. 

I agree with this completely.

.. i think he needs another year or so .. but eventually ... when his balls drop ... he needs to be able to say ... **** that Mike ... and adjust/change the play to what he thinks will work .. ...

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[HawkeyeJet]

So now we’ve moved on to the point where people are questioning if he is freelancing his dropback set on plays.  This is fun

[Dunnie]

So now we’ve moved on to the point where people are questioning if he is freelancing his dropback set on plays.  This is fun

No ... we are wondering if its being to rigid in the playcalling.

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[HawkeyeJet]

I’ll also add that there zero 7 step drops in yesterdays Jets offense.