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Zack Wilson take from Fins Fan


dolphann4life
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6 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

True Sam Darnold is proof of this. As for Tua he managed an ok game for you yesterday but had a great running game against a weak defense who gave up double the ground yardage you average per week. But still he almost blew the game against a better team it would have been an L. 

It was one of Tua’s worst games imo. Only thing I was happy to see was him bounce back from the pick 6 and get the win. He was clearly carried by the run game and 2nd half defense. 

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10 minutes ago, dolphann4life said:

Simply pointing out the obvious, they don’t throw downfield. All this with the most pocket time in the whole league. Advanced stats also say Tua is Elite at completing deep balls and we both know he’s far from a deep ball passer in his young career.

I notice you're cleverly trying to twist to argument to one you can win. I never said that Mac was a "deep ball" thrower. I only refute the (false) narrative than he's a "dink and dunker." There is an intermediate passing game, as well, you know. 

And if you're going to adjust down for his OL -- which no one denies is great -- how much do you adjust up for his top 2 weaponz being UDFAs?

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40 minutes ago, jgb said:

Jones has a:

  • higher YPA than Brady
  • higher Intended Air Yards Per Attempt than Mahomes
  • higher Completed Air Yards Per Completion than Aaron Rodgers
  • higher QBR than Russell Wilson

All while supported with less YAC per completion than any of them.

You're kind of just cherry picking stats here.

Mac is "league average or worse" in all of these stats, and behind (gasp) Zach Wilson in a few of them would also be accurate.

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4 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

You're kind of just cherry picking stats here.

Mac is "league average or worse" in all of these stats, and behind (gasp) Zach Wilson in a few of them would also be accurate.

"Cherry picking" is now added to my "most misunderstood terms" list. Between "literally" and "flashes."

I'm not saying Jones is great, only that he isn't a dink and dunker, which the data shows out.

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1 minute ago, jgb said:

"Cherry picking" is now added to my "most wrongly used terms" list. Between "literally" and "flashes."

And I'm not saying Jones is great, only that he isn't a dink and dunker, which the data shows out.

It's 100% cherry picking. You're picking a stat, picking a prominent QB who is below Jones in that specific stat and volunteering that info because it supports your point. There is zero context provided just one piece of specifically selected information. It is literally the definition of cherry picking.

And we can agree to disagree on Jones. He's not late stage Chad Pennignton or anything but he has a limited NFL arm and isn't being asked to do much. He's sitting behind a great OL with a great run game and making easy throws 95% of the time. I do not see him as a difference maker at this level -- but on the Pats he doesn't need to be. He's rock solid.

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3 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

It's 100% cherry picking. You're picking a stat, picking a prominent QB who is below Jones in that specific stat and volunteering that info because it supports your point. There is zero context provided just one piece of specifically selected information. It is literally the definition of cherry picking.

And we can agree to disagree on Jones. He's not late stage Chad Pennignton or anything but he has a limited NFL arm and isn't being asked to do much. He's sitting behind a great OL with a great run game and making easy throws 95% of the time. I do not see him as a difference maker at this level -- but on the Pats he doesn't need to be. He's rock solid.

You are too wrong to bother correcting. Let's fast forward to the point where you tacitly admit defeat by saying "well he just looks like a dink and dunker to me."

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1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

It's 100% cherry picking. You're picking a stat, picking a prominent QB who is below Jones in that specific stat and volunteering that info because it supports your point. There is zero context provided just one piece of specifically selected information. It is literally the definition of cherry picking.

And we can agree to disagree on Jones. He's not late stage Chad Pennignton or anything but he has a limited NFL arm and isn't being asked to do much. He's sitting behind a great OL with a great run game and making easy throws 95% of the time. I do not see him as a difference maker at this level -- but on the Pats he doesn't need to be. He's rock solid.

He's definitely limited with this ability to push the ball down the field.  Can he do it?  Sure, he can get it down field but it's not something that teams need to worry about.  Truthfully, I'd be asking him to do it more if I were a DC but take away the middle of the field because some of those balloons he throws to the sidelines are not going to make it to the WR in Dec and the playoffs when the weather is cold and the D's are better.  His own OC and HC actively decided to only allow him to attempt 3 passes in an NFL Football game.  Even they think he's clearly limited. And lets not forget, that game was played inside an arena.  He was throwing balloons indoors.  It's going to be very interesting to see how that water pistol arm handles the elements of Dec/Playoff Football in New England, considering he had never seen snow up until 3 weeks ago. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, JiFapono said:

He's definitely limited with this ability to push the ball down the field.  Can he do it?  Sure, he can get it down field but it's not something that teams need to worry about.  Truthfully, I'd be asking him to do it more if I were a DC but take away the middle of the field because some of those balloons he throws to the sidelines are not going to make it to the WR in Dec and the playoffs when the weather is cold and the D's are better.  His own OC and HC actively decided to only allow him to attempt 3 passes in an NFL Football game.  Even they think he's clearly limited. And lets not forget, that game was played inside an arena.  He was throwing balloons indoors.  It's going to be very interesting to see how that water pistol arm handles the elements of Dec/Playoff Football in New England, considering he had never seen snow up until 3 weeks ago. 

 

 

100% agree. 

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3 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

He's definitely limited with this ability to push the ball down the field.  Can he do it?  Sure, he can get it down field but it's not something that teams need to worry about.  Truthfully, I'd be asking him to do it more if I were a DC but take away the middle of the field because some of those balloons he throws to the sidelines are not going to make it to the WR in Dec and the playoffs when the weather is cold and the D's are better.  His own OC and HC actively decided to only allow him to attempt 3 passes in an NFL Football game.  Even they think he's clearly limited. And lets not forget, that game was played inside an arena.  He was throwing balloons indoors.  It's going to be very interesting to see how that water pistol arm handles the elements of Dec/Playoff Football in New England, considering he had never seen snow up until 3 weeks ago. 

 

 

Might have something to do with the fact Jones' two outside receivers are 11th and 21st percentile in the 40 among NFL receivers. Pats will get a speedster or two this off season. Then you'll see.

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1 hour ago, dolphann4life said:

It was one of Tua’s worst games imo. Only thing I was happy to see was him bounce back from the pick 6 and get the win. He was clearly carried by the run game and 2nd half defense. 

The Jets being competitive for half a game is par for the course this season. Sometimes first half sometimes second half. Our first half offensive stats had been terrible until recently. Now we're getting shut out in half 2. There's a talent problem for sure but our CS isn't good at making adjustments while our opponents figure things out. How they can get killed by the Dolphins running game is unbelievable. 

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12 minutes ago, jgb said:

Might have something to do with the fact Jones' two outside receivers are 11th and 21st percentile in the 40 among NFL receivers. Pats will get a speedster or two this off season. Then you'll see.

Sure, might have something to do with it.  Or maybe, Jones isnt a great down field passer.  I do know Agholor ran a 4.3.  He was basically a deep threat for the Raiders last year and nothing else.  He averaged 18.7 ypc, had 3 catches over 75 yards.  He is down to 12.5 and his long is 45yards in New England.  

We shall see if they prioritize speed this upcoming offseason.  They certainty didnt this past offseason (outside of Agholor).  They signed Bourne and 2 TE's, Henry and Smith.  I think they rather run a ball control offense, probably because that's what their QB does best.  I'd be really surprised if they suddenly started attacking all parts of the field.  Never really been their philosophy.  

 

 

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Just now, Rangers9 said:

The Jets being competitive for half a game is par for the course this season. Sometimes first half sometimes second half. Our first half offensive stats had been terrible until recently. Now we're getting shut out in half 2. There's a talent problem for sure but our CS isn't good at making adjustments while our opponents figure things out. How they can get killed by the Dolphins running game is unbelievable. 

The defense continues to be terrible at everything but I definitely think Fatusaki being out was a big factor in the abysmal run defense yesterday... That and deciding not to tackle Duke Johnson.

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2 hours ago, dolphann4life said:

Ok, here we go! You need this! A rebirth of renewed Zach Wilson hope gifted to you by a Dolphins fan! 

I watch or atleast keep an eye on every Jets game. So I’m very familiar with Zachs strengths and weaknesses. While I want him to fail miserably because he’s our rival, I can’t see how some of you can’t see the potential he oozes! 

Did you not see this kids insane Escapability yesterday? I mean it’s truly something. He does this multiple times a game too! It’s a trait that will eventually lead your team to many big plays. 
 

His short throw accuracy has been a wekapoint in his game but we’ve seen guys fix that. Josh Allen anyone? 
 

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’d rather have Wilson’s game breaking potential over Mac Jones dink and dunk. This kid is 22 years old! We expect these kids to come in be elite right off the bat. No chance to grow. It’s really getting ridiculous. And your roster isn’t exactly stocked with top notch offensive talent and your defense does your offense very little favors.

Just wondering would you take Zach over Tua? If you could make that trade. 

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2 hours ago, dolphann4life said:

Ok, here we go! You need this! A rebirth of renewed Zach Wilson hope gifted to you by a Dolphins fan! 

I watch or atleast keep an eye on every Jets game. So I’m very familiar with Zachs strengths and weaknesses. While I want him to fail miserably because he’s our rival, I can’t see how some of you can’t see the potential he oozes! 

Did you not see this kids insane Escapability yesterday? I mean it’s truly something. He does this multiple times a game too! It’s a trait that will eventually lead your team to many big plays. 
 

His short throw accuracy has been a wekapoint in his game but we’ve seen guys fix that. Josh Allen anyone? 
 

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’d rather have Wilson’s game breaking potential over Mac Jones dink and dunk. This kid is 22 years old! We expect these kids to come in be elite right off the bat. No chance to grow. It’s really getting ridiculous. And your roster isn’t exactly stocked with top notch offensive talent and your defense does your offense very little favors.

Damn, we’ve got a Josh Allen in the making!!

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24 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Sure, might have something to do with it.  Or maybe, Jones isnt a great down field passer.  I do know Agholor ran a 4.3.  He was basically a deep threat for the Raiders last year and nothing else.  He averaged 18.7 ypc, had 3 catches over 75 yards.  He is down to 12.5 and his long is 45yards in New England.  

We shall see if they prioritize speed this upcoming offseason.  They certainty didnt this past offseason (outside of Agholor).  They signed Bourne and 2 TE's, Henry and Smith.  I think they rather run a ball control offense, probably because that's what their QB does best.  I'd be really surprised if they suddenly started attacking all parts of the field.  Never really been their philosophy.  

 

 

Patriots are tied for #2 in the league in "explosive pass play" (defined as pass plays that gain >15 yards) percentage behind only LV. They are tied with ARZ, LA, and Cincy.

Then there are the Yards After the Catch/completion ranks of the aforementioned teams:

  • LV: #7
  • ARZ: #8
  • LA: #9
  • CINCY: #4
  • NE: #18

Mac has the Pats near the very top of the league in explosive pass plays despite having limited weapopninz that don't create much on their own after the catch. Mac Jones might not have a rocket arm and will never be a dude throwing it 60 yards in the air, but he ain't no dink-and-dunker. I suspect the Pats will get a speedster or two on the outside next season -- it's their top (or close to it) need. I'm confident Belichick sees the same thing I do.

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5 minutes ago, jgb said:

Patriots are tied for #2 in the league in "explosive pass play" (defined as pass plays that gain >15 yards) percentage behind only LV. They are tied with ARZ, LA, and Cincy.

Here are the YAC/completion of the aforementioned teams:

  • LV: 7
  • ARZ: 8
  • LA: 9
  • CINCY: 4
  • NE: 18

Mac has the Pats near the very top of the league in explosive pass plays despite having limited weapopninz that don't create much on their own. Mac Jones might not have a rocket arm and will never be a dude throwing it 60 yards in the air, but he ain't no dink-and-dunker. I suspect the Pats will get a speedster or two on the outside next season. I'm confident Belichick sees the same thing I do.

Meh, this is your weakest defense of him not being a dink and dunk.  You've provided much stronger data points in the past.  In general, this "stat" is total poopoo garbage and it doesnt really defend your position as by definition, "explosive pass plays" - is any pass plays that goes longer than 20 yards.  So, a 2 yard out to a RB in the flat that goes for 20 yards, is "explosive" but not really defending your point that Mac isnt a dink and dunk QB.

Further, if you analyze the data.  It's totally nonsensical.  The Jets have 42 explosive pass plays.  The Patriots have 47.   The Jets are 19th and the Pats are 2nd because of percentage per?  Not a very useful and/or telling stat.  Kind of pointless and deceiving quite honestly.  KC is 18th in explosive pass plays and Vegas is #1, have you seen these teams play Football?  lol

 

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2 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Meh, this is your weakest defense of him not being a dink and dunk.  You've provided much stronger data points in the past.  In general, this "stat" is total poopoo garbage and it doesnt really defend your position as by definition, "explosive pass plays" - is any pass plays that goes longer than 20 yards.  So, a 2 yard out to a RB in the flat that goes for 20 yards, is "explosive" but not really defending your point that Mac isnt a dink and dunk QB.

Further, if you analyze the data.  It's totally nonsensical.  The Jets have 42 explosive pass plays.  The Patriots have 47.   The Jets are 19th and the Pats are 2nd because of percentage per?  Not a very useful and/or telling stat.  Kind of pointless and deceiving quite honestly.  KC is 18th in explosive pass plays and Vegas is #1, have you seen these teams play Football?  lol

 

I've demonstrated Patriots don't benefit from much YAC. Rendering your critique preemptively invalid. Also, who called Zach Wilson a "dink and dunker?" That's the issue here. Not whether Mac Jones is a football god.

I'm only left with this: name terms and stakes and a charity.

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2 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

One of my biggest issues right now with Zach Wilson is that he doesn't use his biggest strength in the game, it least he hasn't, outside of the Eagles game, since he came back. He has incredible arm talent. He should be trying to push the ball down the field more, even with injuries to Davis and Moore. Hopefully against a bad Jaguars team we see him take more shots down the field. 

Zach has a ton of physical ability, but he has to put it all together. Hopefully next year he will. We shall see. 

 

As a noted "Zach Hater", I have to say, its a bit difficult to take "deep shots" when your best receiver available is Crowder, and the receiver corps is rounded out with Keelan Cole, the ghost of Denzel past, and whoever they scrape up...the Smith Brothers??

 

And compound that with the issue of multiple free rushers screaming in untouched, and I don't think it would be possible to let a play develop more than 15 yards downfield in those conditions. 

 

The longest pass Zach completed yesterday was on a broken play scramble to ol' Cement Shoes Griffin I believe.

 

Not great, Bob.

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Just now, jgb said:

I'm only left with this: name terms and stakes and a charity.

You are wrong and will be proven as such.

Nope, I'm not wrong at all.  I've provided a brilliant, perfect analysis of the truth.  You can stick your fingers in your ears and cover your eyes all you want but I'm winning and more than like already won.

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1 minute ago, JiFapono said:

Nope, I'm not wrong at all.  I've provided a brilliant, perfect analysis of the truth.  You can stick your fingers in your ears and cover your eyes all you want but I'm winning and more than like already won.

Terms, stakes, charity.

And you have already lost because math rules the Universe but for a good cause I'll happily take the slam dunk.

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Just now, jgb said:

Terms, stakes, charity.

And you have already lost because math rules the Universe but for a good cause I'll happily take the slam dunk.

Huh?  What are we betting on?   

If if the bet is, Mac Jones is a dink and dunk artist, then you need to make a donation today because you already lost. 

If the bet is the Patriots are going to get a speedster, then this is stupid, I never said they wouldnt and I dont care about who they get for Jones to underthrow next season, he's already ruined the deep threat extraordinaire, Nelson Agholor. 

 

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1 minute ago, JiFapono said:

Huh?  What are we betting on?   

If if the bet is, Mac Jones is a dink and dunk artist, then you need to make a donation today because you already lost. 

If the bet is the Patriots are going to get a speedster, then this is stupid, I never said they wouldnt and I dont care about who they get for Jones to underthrow next season, he's already ruined the deep threat extraordinaire, Nelson Agholor. 

 

Name the terms. If you believe there is a better way to identify a "dink and dunk" QB other than the bazillion stats I've presented that obliterate the premise, put up or shut up :) 

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6 minutes ago, jgb said:

Name the terms. If you believe there is a better way to identify a "dink and dunk" QB other than the bazillion stats I've presented that obliterate the premise, put up or shut up :) 

Terms for what?  What is the bet?   Make yourself clear.  We've already confirmed that Mac Jones is a dink and dunk expert, so what are we betting on?

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2 hours ago, dolphann4life said:

Mac Jones also has an elite defense and a team that can line up and run the ball 100 times in a row and win. 

3 damn passes to beat Buffalo in Buffalo in the weather the Bills were built to win in. Madness. Nice little thing fur a rookie QB or any QB to have 

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1 minute ago, JiFapono said:

Terms for what?  What is the bet?   Make yourself clear.  We've already confirmed that Mac Jones is a dink and dunk expert, so what are we betting on?

Tell us a statistic that identifies who is and is not a "dink and dunk" QB and what the cut-off is (20th in the league or worse? 25?). If we agree, we bet.

It's easy to poke at stats. Let's see if you are as good at interpreting them.

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Pandering. Pathetic. The fact that people are pointing to Josh Allen who's been the biggest analytical anomaly ever recorded speaks volumes to the levels of delusion we're dealing with here.

FHBoPi1XoAM7bR_?format=jpg&name=medium

There is the reality of Zach Wilson folks. You don't come back from that level of incompetence. When you're this bad you're just bad. He's Jake Locker. 

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1 minute ago, Irish Jet said:

Pandering. Pathetic.

FHBoPi1XoAM7bR_?format=jpg&name=medium

There is the reality of Zach Wilson folks. You don't come back from that level of incompetence. When you're this bad you're just bad. 

Hey if we get an elite OL and a "true #1 WR" Zach can probably get close to the Darnold/Lawrence grouping.

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2 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

One of my biggest issues right now with Zach Wilson is that he doesn't use his biggest strength in the game, it least he hasn't, outside of the Eagles game, since he came back. He has incredible arm talent. He should be trying to push the ball down the field more, even with injuries to Davis and Moore. Hopefully against a bad Jaguars team we see him take more shots down the field. 

Zach has a ton of physical ability, but he has to put it all together. Hopefully next year he will. We shall see. 

 

Who should he throw these downfield passes to right now?  Mims?  Berrios?  Cole?  Crowder? 

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1 minute ago, jgb said:

Tell us a statistic that identifies who is and is not a "dink and dunk" QB and what the cut-off is (20th in the league or worse? 25?). If we agree, we bet.

It's easy to poke at stats. Let's see if you are as good at interpreting them.

lmfao - you called a 2 yard out route to a RB that took it for 18 yards after the catch because of bad tackling, "explosive", not me.

 

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1 hour ago, jgb said:

Cherry picked, lol. Do you know what that even means? I used the the four most relevant stats to refute the statement that Jones is a "dink and dunker" and I used the entire year -- every game. Didn't carve any out, excuse any away or even remove the Bills game when he threw 3 times. None of that. I even included a bonus stat that Jones' YPA is the least inflated with YAC yards than any other QB listed.  Did I miss something? If you brought a dish to the potluck, put it on the table so we an all have a taste.

There is no need for me to address your strawman that this somehow means I am equating the QBs in ability.

 

Is there a stat that represents  the fact his team can only pass the ball three times in a typhoon to win? Mac has the highest football IQ of any QB that has come out recently, he has nice anticipation and touch in short stuff. He’s in far and away the best situation too. Ignore that and you can shove your advanced stats up your butt. You don’t think literally almost not having to attempt more than three passes in that Bills game didn’t help? Haha  

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3 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

lmfao - you called a 2 yard out route to a RB that took it for 18 yards after the catch because of bad tackling, "explosive", not me.

 

Yes, you've identified one play. You don't think any of the other top ranked teams have had similar broken plays? That's the power of statistical confidence over large sample sizes, my friend.

And you think my argument is weak. 

I'll leave it here. Money talks and you know what walks. Hint: it sticks to your shoe and I'm not talking about bubble gum. Give it a think and get back to me if you want to make a friendly charity bet on a position you say you're 100% confident in.

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