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Zack Wilson take from Fins Fan


dolphann4life
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5 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

He attempted 3 passes in a game and you went...but bro, running teams have been to the Super Bowl as a counter argument....and you're telling me my take is the worst you've ever seen?  lmfao

you cant make this up

 

The goal is to win the game.  You think if we could run the ball down Buffalo's throat and take the ball out of their hands we would be throwing passes?  We wouldn't because Shanahan wouldn't.   Denver didn't sniff a SB until they were able to run the ball down the throat of their opponents and that was with Elway.  

Josh Allen has the strongest arm in the game.  He threw 30 passes and they scored 10 points. 

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Just now, Biggs said:

The goal is to win the game.  You think if we could run the ball down Buffalo's throat and take the ball out of their hands we would be throwing passes?  We wouldn't because Shanahan wouldn't.   Denver didn't sniff a SB until they were able to run the ball down the throat of their opponents and that was with Elway.  

Biggs, my man, I have no clue what you're doing here.  You're arguing with yourself.  At no point did I say running the ball isnt important.  Catch up on the debate, you're way out in left field. 

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4 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Nice edit, that was never the point., get on topic please. 

What topic?  Jets fans and Dolphins fan are sh*tting on Mac.  I thought the guy would suck.  He's the best rookie QB and it's not close.  He's very likely to be a very good to great NFL QB for a long time if he doesn't get hurt.  

I hated Pennington who before he got hurt had a slower release and less arm talent than Mac.  Pennington was a real good QB before the injury and might have had a great career if he wasn't a rag doll.  

Mac has enough arm coupled with a very fast processing brain and a great, not good release.  That's enough to be an elite NFL QB.  

The idea that they didn't trust him to throw when the conditions sucked and the QB with the biggest arm in football couldn't put points on the board is nonsense.  They didn't have to throw to win that game.  It's called a game plan and winning football.  It's exactly what good coaches do.  It's been so long since we had a game plan we don't even recognize it.

Keep crapping on Mac Jones.  With all the high picks and money the sad fact is in one year the Pats have had an offseason that Jets fans could only dream about. The truth of that pisses me off.   Our plan was hijacked by a division rival we've been trying to catch for 2 decades. 

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7 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Biggs, my man, I have no clue what you're doing here.  You're arguing with yourself.  At no point did I say running the ball isnt important.  Catch up on the debate, you're way out in left field. 

No you're arguing that in crappy conditions they didn't trust him to throw the ball.  The team with the strongest arm QB in the league threw it 30 times and they scored 10 points.  The trust thing is where we part company.  It was smart football.

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18 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

He attempted 3 passes in a game and you went...but bro, running teams have been to the Super Bowl as a counter argument....and you're telling me my take is the worst you've ever seen?  lmfao

you cant make this up

 

Bro, the guy in the same game who threw 30 passes put 10 points on the board.  In Shanahan's system that we want to run that's practically the perfect game.

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39 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

There is a huge difference between, being a run first team like the 49'ers and the Seahawks from those seasons and not allowing your QB to attempt a forward pass in a Football contest in 2021.  I dont see the relevance in this comparison in the slightest.

Prior to his coaching staff only allowing him to attempt 3 passes vs. the Bills, Mac was on a 30 attempt a game pace.  Therefore, we can easily say that his coaching staff didnt trust him to pass the ball in a game where they didnt feel his squirt gun arm could hold up.  If they didnt have to pass it, why is he attempting 30 a game?

 

 

While it was a brilliant strategy, it was a strategy borne out of necessity.

Mac simply does not have the arm to throw in that weather.  Pure and simple.  Sure they won, sure it looked brilliant, but Belli had no other choice.  His first pass was wild high by 2 feet and he threw 2 completely safe short throws.

Because he COULDN'T throw it.  I know if's and buts but it the Bills go up there at the end and Mac needs to lead them on a long drive to win, he's gotta throw and he would have failed.  It never came to that.

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2 hours ago, JiFapono said:

100%.  Kid has been great, ROTY.  Jamar Chase is making a good case too but I think it goes to the QB who is leading his division.  I think Mac Jones has a long, prosperous career.  Maybe even dinking and dunking his way into record books/and or the HOF ala Drew Brees.  Great player, cant push the ball down field.  It's ok.  They have the offense to cater to him .

 

15 minutes ago, Biggs said:

What topic?  Jets fans and Dolphins fan are sh*tting on Mac.  I thought the guy would suck.  He's the best rookie QB and it's not close.  He's very likely to be a very good to great NFL QB for a long time if he doesn't get hurt.  

I hated Pennington who before he got hurt had a slower release and less arm talent than Mac.  Pennington was a real good QB before the injury and might have had a great career if he wasn't a rag doll.  

Mac has enough arm coupled with a very fast processing brain and a great, not good release.  That's enough to be an elite NFL QB.  

The idea that they didn't trust him to throw when the conditions sucked and the QB with the biggest arm in football couldn't put points on the board is nonsense.  They didn't have to throw to win that game.  It's called a game plan and winning football.  It's exactly what good coaches do.  It's been so long since we had a game plan we don't even recognize it.

Keep crapping on Mac Jones.  With all the high picks and money the sad fact is in one year the Pats have had an offseason that Jets fans could only dream about. The truth of that pisses me off.   Our plan was hijacked by a division rival we've been trying to catch for 2 decades. 

Biggs, my man!  Do you see the post above this?  That is me, JiFapono, saying that Mac Jones is a great player.  That's me saying he's going to with ROTY.  That's me saying he's going to have a long prosperous career.  That's me saying he might go to the HOF.

This "debate" was simply about him being a dink and dunk expert, with a pop gun arm.  Which is fine, I'd take that over Zach Wilson all day long right now.  Plenty of guys have made very long careers out of it.  This was simply just about his ability, not his greatness. 

That said, his coaching staff clearly didnt trust him to throw the ball in those conditions vs. the Bills.  You can spin it all you want but that's fact.  You can say its because they didnt need to but that's just convenient.  Especially considering it came after him tweeting he's never seen snow before and the fact he's passing the ball 30 times every other game.  If they didnt need to pass, why would they ever pass?  It's a silly take.  They clearly were scared of his arm in that weather, just like they were scared to kick the ball and kept going for it on 4th down.  That doesnt take away from how good Mac Jones has been, it's just reality and it's going to be very interesting to see how it plays out the rest of the year.  He was throwing balloons indoors the other day.

 

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23 minutes ago, jgb said:

I take that back. You must be in the remedial class. He changes the terms after a bet is made -- they teach that in the advanced class. You claim victory before terms are even discussed. 

Nah, the master class wins before it begins. 

Take lessons, brah.  It's free, for now.

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22 minutes ago, Biggs said:

No you're arguing that in crappy conditions they didn't trust him to throw the ball.  The team with the strongest arm QB in the league threw it 30 times and they scored 10 points.  The trust thing is where we part company.  It was smart football.

It was smart Football, because they didnt trust their QB to throw. If they didnt need him to throw ever, why does he attempt 30 passes a game?

You're better than this, Biggs.

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3 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

 

Biggs, my man!  Do you see the post above this?  That is me, JiFapono, saying that Mac Jones is a great player.  That's me saying he's going to with ROTY.  That's me saying he's going to have a long prosperous career.  That's me saying he might go to the HOF.

This "debate" was simply about him being a dink and dunk expert, with a pop gun arm.  Which is fine, I'd take that over Zach Wilson all day long right now.  Plenty of guys have made very long careers out of it.  This was simply just about his ability, not his greatness. 

That said, his coaching staff clearly didnt trust him to throw the ball in those conditions vs. the Bills.  You can spin it all you want but that's fact.  You can say its because they didnt need to but that's just convenient.  Especially considering it came after him tweeting he's never seen snow before and the fact he's passing the ball 30 times every other game.  If they didnt need to pass, why would they ever pass?  It's a silly take.  They clearly were scared of his arm in that weather, just like they were scared to kick the ball and kept going for it on 4th down.  That doesnt take away from how good Mac Jones has been, it's just reality and it's going to be very interesting to see how it plays out the rest of the year.  He was throwing balloons indoors the other day.

 

Sorry.  I love big armed QB's and hate the dink and dunk game.  The reality is I've learned it's all about the brain not the arm.   I think he's arms a little better than you TBD...

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3 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

While it was a brilliant strategy, it was a strategy borne out of necessity.

Mac simply does not have the arm to throw in that weather.  Pure and simple.  Sure they won, sure it looked brilliant, but Belli had no other choice.  His first pass was wild high by 2 feet and he threw 2 completely safe short throws.

Because he COULDN'T throw it.  I know if's and buts but it the Bills go up there at the end and Mac needs to lead them on a long drive to win, he's gotta throw and he would have failed.  It never came to that.

100% this, 100%.  He goes from 30 passes game to 3, it happens to be in a game where it was the first time, he's seen snow and his HC wont attempt a FG or extra point, which he also attempts in every other game.

lol

 

 

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5 hours ago, munchmemory said:

"I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’d rather have Wilson’s game breaking potential over Mac Jones dink and dunk."

If I were a Miami fan?   Having Zack Wilson as the Jets QB for the next five or 10 years is a dream scenario.

If Zach Williams is our QB for the next 10 years, I'll dance down the street and every rival in the division would see it not as a dream scenario but a nightmare scenario 

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Just now, JiFapono said:

100% this, 100%.  He goes from 30 passes game to 3, it happens to be in a game where it was the first time, he's seen snow and his HC wont attempt a FG or extra point, which he also attempts in every other game.

lol

 

 

It's nothing to be defensive about, he has almost a decent enough arm but when it comes to games deep into January up in NE or Buffalo or where ever it's frigid, blustery, icy, snowy--he's going to have problems.

With that defense, coaching and running game he'll win a lot of games.  But not by himself, not in the weather.  

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7 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

It was smart Football, because they didnt trust their QB to throw. If they didnt need him to throw ever, why does he attempt 30 passes a game?

You're better than this, Biggs.

I went off the reservation now you're doing it.  The game plan, the conditions and what's actually happening on the field dictate the attack.   In that game under those conditions and the fact that they were able to run made throwing the ball a bad move.   Had they not been able to run the ball or get a lead they would have thrown the ball.  Since they didn't need to and were able to control the score board and the clock and the other team wasn't having success throwing the ball that's what they did.  The idea that was a trust issue seems absurd to me.  Had the score dictated them to throw I'm pretty sure they would have.   

 

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2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

If Zach Williams is our QB for the next 10 years, I'll dance down the street and every rival in the division would see it not as a dream scenario but a nightmare scenario 

If Zach plays at his current level for the next five to 10 years, we will all need ECT.  Multiple times.

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1 minute ago, Biggs said:

I went off the reservation now you're doing it.  The game plan, the conditions and what's actually happening on the field dictate the attack.   In that game under those conditions and the fact that they were able to run made throwing the ball a bad move.   Had they not been able to run the ball or get a lead they would have thrown the ball.  Since they didn't need to and were able to control the score board and the clock and the other team wasn't having success throwing the ball that's what they did.  The idea that was a trust issue seems absurd to me.  Had the score dictated them to throw I'm pretty sure they would have. 

The game plan came out of necessity.  Again, if they didnt need to throw to win, why ever throw?  

We can agree to disagree but it's a bizarre one for me, this is quite obvious. 

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Just now, JiFapono said:

The game plan came out of necessity.  Again, if they didnt need to throw to win, why ever throw?  

We can agree to disagree but it's a bizarre one for me, this is quite obvious. 

A great question.  I think Shanahan answered it in the NFC Finals two years ago and BB answered it against Buffalo a couple of weeks ago.   If I could win without throwing the ball I would.  

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6 minutes ago, Biggs said:

A great question.  I think Shanahan answered it in the NFC Finals two years ago and BB answered it against Buffalo a couple of weeks ago.   If I could win without throwing the ball I would.  

Well, fwiw, I dont think the comparison you keep bringing up is all that similar.  Mac Jones attempted 1 pass in the first half of that game.  Jimmy G attempted 6 of his 8 in the first half and went into the half with a 27-0 lead.  The Patriots were up by 1 point and Jones only attempted 2 passes in the 2nd half of a close game.  It's quite bit different when you decided to take the air out of the ball to protect a 27-0 lead than it is continuing to run the ball in a 1 score game.  Shannahan was also probably motivated by the criticism of his 2nd half play calling when he was the OC for the Falcons vs. Patriots in the Super Bowl.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Biggs said:

A great question.  I think Shanahan answered it in the NFC Finals two years ago and BB answered it against Buffalo a couple of weeks ago.   If I could win without throwing the ball I would.  

If Bills could stop the run, Belichick would've adjusted. But they couldn't so he just kept spooning the castor oil down their throats.

Let's also remember two things: (1) there were 60 mph gusts that night IIRC. This was not a "typical" NE winter's day; and (2) Allen -- whose arm strength no one questions and has played in tons of sub-zero games -- threw for 54% of his season yardage average and put up a sub-5.0 YPA for only the second time since his disastrous rookie year. This is a guy with the strongest -- certainly top 3 strongest -- arms presently in the NFL.

Those conditions would've challenged anyone. Especially a rookie, on the road, who never played in the cold before in his life (Florida dude who played in SEC with bowl games in Pasadena and Miami). No one is saying Mac has a "strong" NFL arm but the post-surgery Pennington comparisons are absurd.

It's funny, when I started digging into the stats it was for the purpose of showing he was a dink and dunker. While I did have him as my #2 QB in the draft, this was on the basis of football IQ. Like you, I believe brain > arm, assuming necessary baseline arm talent. This is the point I was hoping to make. But then a funny thing happened. The numbers surprised me and told a completely different story. They told me that ok he's not a bomber who's going to throw the ball on a 40 yard rope, but he's not a dink and dunker, either. So I changed my opinion. 

The data tells me that he's a guy who leverages his run game and play action (football intelligence) to land jabs against the defense and then takes his shots when they are there. He's #12 in the league in 20+ yard completions, despite being #17 in attempts. He's not getting much help from his weaponz either with one of the worst outside receiver duos in the league. NE is 18th in YAC/completion and were I inclined to really parse it out, I bet the RBs are pulling that average up.

Despite all of this -- and his youth -- he has done surprisingly well in a number of statistics showing average depth of pass, average air yards per completion, etc. He is quickly becoming a master of the play action and the intermediate game and has the Pats tied at #2 in the league in percentage of pass plays over 15 yards (despite woeful YAC on the outside). The #1 team and the three other teams tied at #2 all rank top 10 in YAC/completion. And yes, one must recognize that Belichick is displaying a Master Clinic right now on how to bring a QB along slowly and build his confidence but in the games, Mac still has to make the throws and he does that at a 69% rate on the button.

I'm not saying that he is a great QB -- maybe one day, but not yet -- but he is also not a dink and dunker.

 

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40 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Well, fwiw, I dont think the comparison you keep bringing up is all that similar.  Mac Jones attempted 1 pass in the first half of that game.  Jimmy G attempted 6 of his 8 in the first half and went into the half with a 27-0 lead.  The Patriots were up by 1 point and Jones only attempted 2 passes in the 2nd half of a close game.  It's quite bit different when you decided to take the air out of the ball to protect a 27-0 lead than it is continuing to run the ball in a 1 score game.  Shannahan was also probably motivated by the criticism of his 2nd half play calling when he was the OC for the Falcons vs. Patriots in the Super Bowl.

 

 

Maybe the BIlls should have thrown less and run more?  They may have won the game if they threw the ball less?  Especially with Allen's running ability.  Against an offensive team like Buffalo taking the air out of the ball was smart football.  Why throw in those conditions with the lead and your D playing well and their O showing no ability to get it going?

Why is smart, winning football not trusting your QB?  Why is running the ball in terrible throwing conditions showing a lack of trust in your QB?  I think conceptually it's a crazy argument.   If they couldn't run the ball or were playing from behind I get it.  That's not the case. 

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13 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Maybe the BIlls should have thrown less and run more?  They may have won the game if they threw the ball less?  Especially with Allen's running ability.  Against an offensive team like Buffalo taking the air out of the ball was smart football.  Why throw in those conditions with the lead and your D playing well and their O showing no ability to get it going?

Why is smart, winning football not trusting your QB?  Why is running the ball in terrible throwing conditions showing a lack of trust in your QB?  I think conceptually it's a crazy argument.   If they couldn't run the ball or were playing from behind I get it.  That's not the case. 

Nobody is arguing the game plan.  Nobody is saying running the ball is terrible.  You are yelling at the clouds.  The game plan worked but it was created out of necessity.  You're admitting it to it in this post when you ask, "Why throw in those conditions"?  Well, if you have a strong armed QB like the Bills, you're not scared to do so.  When you have a weak armed QB like the Pats, you are scared to throw the ball.

Look, the bottom line is, if this is such a smart game plan that they could deploy week in week out and works without question, why dont they do it every week?  Why does Mac Jones attempt 30 passes a game? Why in their very next game instead of just running it over and over again, did they start the game by having Mac Jones attempt 7 passes but only ran it twice?  It was a tie ball game.  The answer?  It's simple.  They didnt trust their QB's arm to succeed in lousy weather conditions. 

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41 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Maybe the BIlls should have thrown less and run more?  They may have won the game if they threw the ball less?  Especially with Allen's running ability.  Against an offensive team like Buffalo taking the air out of the ball was smart football.  Why throw in those conditions with the lead and your D playing well and their O showing no ability to get it going?

Why is smart, winning football not trusting your QB?  Why is running the ball in terrible throwing conditions showing a lack of trust in your QB?  I think conceptually it's a crazy argument.   If they couldn't run the ball or were playing from behind I get it.  That's not the case. 

It can't also be discounted that Belichick is on a lifetime mission to troll the entire NFL. After the first quarter, I do believe in his devious little mind he kind of fell in love with winning a game in 2021 with 1921 football.

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8 hours ago, dolphann4life said:

Ok fair enough. Can I ask your view on Tua? He’s currently 2nd in deep ball accuracy. Over the last 6 weeks he also had the most 50+ yard pass plays. Do you consider tua a deep ball passer? 

I couldn't find the stat but looking at the numbers, my first thought is that Tua's sample size for deep passes is just so small that any conclusion is going to have an intolerable confidence interval. Tua is 29th in 40+ yard completions and 25th in 20+ yarders.

If you could share the link to the stat, maybe I can give you a more specific response. Thank you.

Full disclosure, I think Tua is a decent NFL QB. Around the Teddy Bridgewater range but with more upside (age).

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