Who would be your first pick at WR?

[Chrebetfan80]

On 12/27/2021 at 1:52 PM, Paradis said:

You think so hey. 

I think he is massively overrated at the moment. I know ppl like @derp and @Chrebetfan80 think the world of him but I’m not sure (yet) he’s dynamic enough. Explosive/fast - obviously. I think the draft media is falling in love with the dream of Williams, like they did Ruggs. 

that said, I’ve only watched him passively during games. Can’t say I’ve committed time to watching his game film yet

He does a lot more in that offense than ruggs did, and his toughness on special teams adds a completely different dynamic to his game.  Kids good, and for this offense he does exactly what we'd need.  He can take the top off, he's good on screens, and he is a tough kid.  Route running is good too, they teach those kids at alabama right and with 2 nfl offensive coaches on staff you know they're getting the proper training on nfl terminology and route work.  I just want to see what he weigh in at first, he does look thin, it hasnt stopped him from being a really physical player this year (some nice special teams tackles) but I still want to see the size for real. 

[Paradis]

5 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

He does a lot more in that offense than ruggs did, and his toughness on special teams adds a completely different dynamic to his game.  Kids good, and for this offense he does exactly what we'd need.  He can take the top off, he's good on screens, and he is a tough kid.  Route running is good too, they teach those kids at alabama right and with 2 nfl offensive coaches on staff you know they're getting the proper training on nfl terminology and route work.  I just want to see what he weigh in at first, he does look thin, it hasnt stopped him from being a really physical player this year (some nice special teams tackles) but I still want to see the size for real. 

You're nailing it when you use the words "In that offense". I'm not spending a top 15 pick on a WR so he can play gunner. That lasts a year at best. At best. 

His route running is OK, but i just went through his SEC champ game... man I love him even less. @derp @sec101row23 you guys are gonna hate me this year cause i dont' even see a 1st round talent. Can this guy make a contested catch? What does he do that Moore doesn't beside maybe shave down the 40...

I posted on the video and time stamped each one (find comment from CM PARADIS)... I am so far away from being with you guys on this. Take away LOS scrimmage stuff and the guy had one NFL catch in this whole game.... i get it, he's fast as hell, and that's not be undervalued, but WR1

but cmon. He does not radically improve our offense by doing his best Desean Jackson impression with average hands in tight coverage. 

1st - 0:10 screen with off coverage
2nd - 0:26 Special teams
3rd - 1:04  outside/man, incomplete.  Needs to be caught. Pickens/Burks/etc make that reception
4th - 1:31 Uncovered post... Moore already can do that, from that formation.
5th 2:49  another behind LOS off cover bubble
6th  3:10  10 yard dig on free release
7th 3:30 corner vs man -- bit of hold, no catch. Need more. 
8th 4:03 Wheel /motion 
9th 4:16 TD on a nice seam vs press man... only blue chip play of the game
10th 5:38 little sweep
11th 6:08 little 5 yard skinny post or something vs man contested and incomplete. (weak PI). Coulda/shoulda caught it.

 

 

[derp]

20 minutes ago, Paradis said:

You're nailing it when you use the words "In that offense". I'm not spending a top 15 pick on a WR so he can play gunner. That lasts a year at best. At best. 

His route running is OK, but i just spend went through his SEC champ game... man I love him EVEN LESS. @derp @sec101row23 you guys are gonna hate me this year cause i dont' even see a 1st round talent. Can this guy make a contested catch?? What the hell does he do that Moore doesn't beside maybe shave a 0.5/0.8 off the 40... Here run 9s all day Jameson... 

Look at this. I posted on the video and time stamped each one (find comment from CM PARADIS)... I am so far away from being with you guys on this. Take away LOS scrimmage stuff and the guy had one NFL catch in this whole game.... i get it, he's fast as hell, and that's not be undervalued, but WR1

but cmon. He does not radically improve our offense by doing his best Desean Jackson impression with average hands in tight coverage. 

1st - 0:10 screen with off coverage
2nd - 0:26 Special teams
3rd - 1:04  outside/man, incomplete.  Needs to be catch. Pickens/Burks/etc make that reception
4th - 1:31 Uncovered post... Moore already can do that, from that formation.
5th 2:49  another behind LOS off cover bubble
6th  3:10  10 yard dig on free release
7th 3:30 corner vs man -- bit of hold, no catch. Need more. 
8th 4:03 Wheel /motion 
9th 4:16 TD on a nice seam vs press man... only blue chip play of the game
10th 5:38 little sweep
11th 6:08 little 5 yard skinny post or something vs man contested and incomplete. (weak PI). Coulda/shoulda caught it.

 

 

This will be fun to come back to regardless.

The big thing I'd like to note here is that I'm not saying he should be WR1 - I don't analyze WR's well enough to tell. But I've followed the draft long enough to believe that he will be WR1 in this class.

On 3-7-11, the "needs to be catch" "Pickens/Burks make that"...I think two things. One is Pickens/Burks don't have the separation he does on those plays - and even though he's got more separation he's not able to reach the ball despite extending arms - not like he's getting hit in the hands. The DB is jostling with his arm on the first. And on one of them he's getting interfered with as you said. I think you love the catch radius guys and it's a different flavor.

I also think you undersell the acceleration. In my opinion the most impressive play is 4 - the way he eats up the DB's angle is insane. You made the Pickens comparison on the one play - Pickens falls down at the 50 or gets tackled at the 40 on that play. There's also really nice subtlety to the route in 9. 

Anyway, chrebetfan knows WR play way way better than I do. I still think he's going to be the first WR drafted because of the production, Alabama pedigree, and the 40 and I still think the profile is risky but he's a unique play on it because we don't see guys with wheels who put up the kinds of numbers we have very often.

[Paradis]

21 minutes ago, derp said:

This will be fun to come back to regardless.

The big thing I'd like to note here is that I'm not saying he should be WR1 - I don't analyze WR's well enough to tell. But I've followed the draft long enough to believe that he will be WR1 in this class.

On 3-7-11, the "needs to be catch" "Pickens/Burks make that"...I think two things. One is Pickens/Burks don't have the separation he does on those plays - and even though he's got more separation he's not able to reach the ball despite extending arms - not like he's getting hit in the hands. The DB is jostling with his arm on the first. And on one of them he's getting interfered with as you said. I think you love the catch radius guys and it's a different flavor.

I also think you undersell the acceleration. In my opinion the most impressive play is 4 - the way he eats up the DB's angle is insane. You made the Pickens comparison on the one play - Pickens falls down at the 50 or gets tackled at the 40 on that play. There's also really nice subtlety to the route in 9. 

Anyway, chrebetfan knows WR play way way better than I do. I still think he's going to be the first WR drafted because of the production, Alabama pedigree, and the 40 and I still think the profile is risky but he's a unique play on it because we don't see guys with wheels who put up the kinds of numbers we have very often.

• it will be fun/frustrating to follow this. I don't think he's bust-risk like I did Dyami Brown per say, i just don't see this WR1/first guy off the board stuff. That's silly IMO. He's a product of his speed and what he's asked to do @Bama. There's def a place for him on any team, but we talked about inside the 10... so far, can i trust to win outside vs CB1? He didn't win often vs Georgia. They overloaded his side a few times to get release. His seam was a nice release though vs man. 
• I think you're wrong on your "Burks/Pickens don't get separation.... they do, you're just talking about "out running" the DB. they position themselves to separation for the catch, or know how to attach the ball. That part is missing from Williams. You're talking about another guy relying on being schemed off the line and relying on burning the coverage. That's not going to happen outside every play. They'll just swing a safety over there. 
• Williams would be a good addition to the offense. Obviously. I would allow Moore to be more dynamic against defensive coverages. But... what's ailing us, the contested catches, the outside thread... big boy jump balls, red zone fades... I'm not sure he moves the needle a ton there. 

[PLO]

I think Williams should be the first WR taken, but not with the Jets picks. He's actually not that far off Denzel Mims as a prospect, both players not exactly known for crisp routes, both tall, quick. Obviously Williams is the better talent but there's not that much of a gulf between them as prospects. 

[IntoTheGreen]

On 12/21/2021 at 3:58 PM, Lurker89 said:

I'm thinking about taking Burks with #2 overall in my dynasty rookie draft...  that being said I hope he doesn't end up here.

You pick before the draft? Or is that who you want to draft depending what team gets him after?

[derp]

34 minutes ago, Paradis said:

• it will be fun/frustrating to follow this. I don't think he's bust-risk like I did Dyami Brown per say, i just don't see this WR1/first guy off the board stuff. That's silly IMO. He's a product of his speed and what he's asked to do @Bama. There's def a place for him on any team, but we talked about inside the 10... so far, can i trust to win outside vs CB1? He didn't win often vs Georgia. They overloaded his side a few times to get release. His seam was a nice release though vs man. 
• I think you're wrong on your "Burks/Pickens don't get separation.... they do, you're just talking about "out running" the DB. they position themselves to separation for the catch, or know how to attach the ball. That part is missing from Williams. You're talking about another guy relying on being schemed off the line and relying on burning the coverage. That's not going to happen outside every play. They'll just swing a safety over there. 
• Williams would be a good addition to the offense. Obviously. I would allow Moore to be more dynamic against defensive coverages. But... what's ailing us, the contested catches, the outside thread... big boy jump balls, red zone fades... I'm not sure he moves the needle a ton there. 

I mean, the speed guys who have gone top ten were silly in the past with less production and not coming from a school that’s had success putting WR’s in the league like Alabama has. Maybe he gets shut down by Gardner and it doesn’t happen but I’d take the under on his draft position wherever the O/U is right now. It’s likely he’s got Alabama hype, CFP hype, production, and combine hype heading to the draft. That doesn’t make a prudent profile to draft but it does make one that goes high. And NFL teams always value speed really heavily. 

Again you’re taking me too literally. Of course they separate differently at the catch point, I’m saying on those plays you’re nitpicking they’re not as physically separated from DB’s as he is because they’re not as fast - especially Pickens. Ball would need to be a couple yards shorter with the corner in their pocket and it’s a tougher catch. But same ball same spot they’re not reaching it because they’re not going to have enough physical separation from the DB to be as far downfield as he is. And the balls are still ever so slightly overthrown anyway which is why he didn’t reach them. It’s just a different style of guy.

And while I’m not saying the Jets wouldn’t benefit from all that stuff in your third bullet I don’t think they are going to emphasize it. And again Burks who at least offers YAC in addition to contested is a nice fit - Pickens I still don’t see so much.

Wanting contested catch guys is at least more realistic to me than the example I’m going to give but it’s kind of akin to guys saying Nasirildeen and Sherwood should move to safety. Yeah they’re small at linebacker and the lack of size is causing problems but they want to run a scheme with small linebackers and aren’t going to move those guys to safety. And those contested catch receivers have always been your type so you’re definitely biased in that way.

I see Berrios and Jeff Smith getting on the field over Mims and think they want speed, YAC, and multi position players over anything else at receiver. The group is way closer to what the 49ers run with Aiyuk and Samuel than GB’s crew. Just think we’re going to be clamoring for a power forward in the WR group for years and they’re going to continue to stock it with guards. Again, think a unicorn like Burks works but some of those guys who I think would translate and benefit Mims I just don’t think they’re going to take a heavy look at. I wouldn’t mind being wrong but I don’t see it.

[Paradis]

34 minutes ago, derp said:

I mean, the speed guys who have gone top ten were silly in the past with less production and not coming from a school that’s had success putting WR’s in the league like Alabama has. Maybe he gets shut down by Gardner and it doesn’t happen but I’d take the under on his draft position wherever the O/U is right now. It’s likely he’s got Alabama hype, CFP hype, production, and combine hype heading to the draft. That doesn’t make a prudent profile to draft but it does make one that goes high. And NFL teams always value speed really heavily. 

Again you’re taking me too literally. Of course they separate differently at the catch point, I’m saying on those plays you’re nitpicking they’re not as physically separated from DB’s as he is because they’re not as fast - especially Pickens. Ball would need to be a couple yards shorter with the corner in their pocket and it’s a tougher catch. But same ball same spot they’re not reaching it because they’re not going to have enough physical separation from the DB to be as far downfield as he is. And the balls are still ever so slightly overthrown anyway which is why he didn’t reach them. It’s just a different style of guy.

And while I’m not saying the Jets wouldn’t benefit from all that stuff in your third bullet I don’t think they are going to emphasize it. And again Burks who at least offers YAC in addition to contested is a nice fit - Pickens I still don’t see so much.

Wanting contested catch guys is at least more realistic to me than the example I’m going to give but it’s kind of akin to guys saying Nasirildeen and Sherwood should move to safety. Yeah they’re small at linebacker and the lack of size is causing problems but they want to run a scheme with small linebackers and aren’t going to move those guys to safety. And those contested catch receivers have always been your type so you’re definitely biased in that way.

I see Berrios and Jeff Smith getting on the field over Mims and think they want speed, YAC, and multi position players over anything else at receiver. The group is way closer to what the 49ers run with Aiyuk and Samuel than GB’s crew. Just think we’re going to be clamoring for a power forward in the WR group for years and they’re going to continue to stock it with guards. Again, think a unicorn like Burks works but some of those guys who I think would translate and benefit Mims I just don’t think they’re going to take a heavy look at. I wouldn’t mind being wrong but I don’t see it.

Good post. Solid dialogue/thoughts. 

I urge to take a longer look at Pickens. You’re selling him short I believe. 

 

[PLO]

3 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

He does a lot more in that offense than ruggs did, and his toughness on special teams adds a completely different dynamic to his game.  Kids good, and for this offense he does exactly what we'd need.  He can take the top off, he's good on screens, and he is a tough kid.  Route running is good too, they teach those kids at alabama right and with 2 nfl offensive coaches on staff you know they're getting the proper training on nfl terminology and route work.  I just want to see what he weigh in at first, he does look thin, it hasnt stopped him from being a really physical player this year (some nice special teams tackles) but I still want to see the size for real. 

His route running isn't "good" but it has definitely improved. 

[derp]

17 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Good post. Solid dialogue/thoughts. 

I urge to take a longer look at Pickens. You’re selling him short I believe. 

 

Believe I alluded to Pickens’ size/ball skills/body control earlier, that’s a big deal. Personally I get leery of that package when you’re lean because I think play strength is key when that’s your skill set. Sometimes he looks like baby AJ Green with the body control and the frame and the Georgia uniform which I get but I don’t think we have the sample size to know he’s got Green’s wiry strength which I think he needed to make him work. Probably undersold the YAC a little but I’m not sure how well it translates because of the frame. Also curious to see how he runs because you don’t really see him open up much.

As I knock Pickens’ frame that’s a big part of why I think Williams is a risky prospect even though I think he goes very high. But I haven’t totally adjusted to the no touching downfield rules that I think help speed guys eat either.

[Joe W. Namath]

With the pick we got from Seattle in rnd 1, we are in position to take the best receiver in the draft.  I cant see Joe D passing on a receiver with that pick

[Barton]

Sure seems like there are some GOOD wr prospects in this draft - but there arent 1-2 guys who really stand out above the rest.

WR is also a highly bustable pick, in general. Seems like a very risky pick in this draft especially. 

Jets would be wise to acquire a #1 in free agency/trade market, if possible, instead. 

[Chrebetfan80]

12 hours ago, Paradis said:

You're nailing it when you use the words "In that offense". I'm not spending a top 15 pick on a WR so he can play gunner. That lasts a year at best. At best. 

His route running is OK, but i just went through his SEC champ game... man I love him even less. @derp @sec101row23 you guys are gonna hate me this year cause i dont' even see a 1st round talent. Can this guy make a contested catch? What does he do that Moore doesn't beside maybe shave down the 40...

I posted on the video and time stamped each one (find comment from CM PARADIS)... I am so far away from being with you guys on this. Take away LOS scrimmage stuff and the guy had one NFL catch in this whole game.... i get it, he's fast as hell, and that's not be undervalued, but WR1

but cmon. He does not radically improve our offense by doing his best Desean Jackson impression with average hands in tight coverage. 

1st - 0:10 screen with off coverage
2nd - 0:26 Special teams
3rd - 1:04  outside/man, incomplete.  Needs to be caught. Pickens/Burks/etc make that reception
4th - 1:31 Uncovered post... Moore already can do that, from that formation.
5th 2:49  another behind LOS off cover bubble
6th  3:10  10 yard dig on free release
7th 3:30 corner vs man -- bit of hold, no catch. Need more. 
8th 4:03 Wheel /motion 
9th 4:16 TD on a nice seam vs press man... only blue chip play of the game
10th 5:38 little sweep
11th 6:08 little 5 yard skinny post or something vs man contested and incomplete. (weak PI). Coulda/shoulda caught it.

 

 

I think youll see more of the route running ability during the lead up to the draft.. much like no one saw it with moore until later.  People I talk to are high on his ability to get in and out of breaks without losing speed.  Its a huge plus for this offense.  If youre argument is that he does what moore does for this offense then yea I would agree, Jets could use a big bodied contested catch guy to fill in that role.  I do think though that JWill's speed opens up so much for this offense for moore and for Davis.  

Im not surprised youre not with me on this one lol I knew when I started talking about Wilson and Williams you'd be out on it haha

[derp]

2 hours ago, Barton said:

Sure seems like there are some GOOD wr prospects in this draft - but there arent 1-2 guys who really stand out above the rest.

WR is also a highly bustable pick, in general. Seems like a very risky pick in this draft especially. 

Jets would be wise to acquire a #1 in free agency/trade market, if possible, instead. 

Trade market sure, free agency is a minefield.

[win4ever]

On 12/24/2021 at 4:55 PM, derp said:

A few thoughts on the bold, because the transfer is interesting and something I’ve thought about.

One is that Burrow transferred from Ohio State because he couldn’t beat out JT Barrett and then Dwayne Haskins - sometimes guys just benefit from a change of scenery. Related and in Williams’ case - Metchie was supposed to be the guy at Alabama this year and Williams has just taken over so not like he’s playing with nobody. Alabama has had such a great track record of putting receivers into the NFL too and Williams is putting up really impressive numbers.

I also think there are a variety of valid schools of thought but if the Jets are taking a wide receiver in the first round it needs to be someone with significant upside. The offense doesn’t have a centerpiece, doesn’t have to be a wide receiver but I think taking one in the first round means they need to chase that. There are steady guys to be had in round two and those are usually the safer bets anyway.

I think the case with Burrow, or with any QB really in college, is that the system fit matters as well.  I don't think he was quite a good fit for the Meyer offense, because that's a horizontal offense with minimal reads.  It's much more reliant on natural talent (be it a running QB, or very strong arm) and discounts mental acumen.  Essentially the system provides the reads, you just have to be good enough physically to take advantage.  He thrived at LSU because he had a system that utilized his ability to make reads better (Didn't hurt to have a treasure trove of stud receivers) which fits his profile much better.  

I think it's different for receivers because it's mostly physical match ups, outside of manufactured catches.  Famous example would be Tavon Austin in college, getting a bunch of mesh concept catches, rub routes, quick screens, etc.  I don't think those apply here.  I like Williams a lot, and he did get open at OSU but it makes me wonder why he couldn't outshine them, because they weren't using the Meyer concepts to get receivers touches.  They pushed it down the field a lot.  

Although to be honest, I haven't dug deep into this class, so just my initial thoughts.  I feel like both Wilson/Olave are better route runners, while Williams has the better overall physical profile/speed.  At this point, I tend to lean towards smooth route runners over the physical profile guys because I think it translates easier to the NFL.  

I think chasing upside has to be Burks, because he fits the system like a glove and probably has the highest potential of the group.  I really like Wilson in the draft because he's very good at setting up his routes, reminds me somewhat of Moore/DeVonta.  

[Asymmetrical]

London seems to check a lot of boxes - can play inside or out, blocks, yac, is the redzone threat that the Jets haven't had in forever.  I also like having a break glass in case of emergency jump ball guy for a young qb.

[Chrebetfan80]

15 hours ago, Paradis said:

• it will be fun/frustrating to follow this. I don't think he's bust-risk like I did Dyami Brown per say, i just don't see this WR1/first guy off the board stuff. That's silly IMO. He's a product of his speed and what he's asked to do @Bama. There's def a place for him on any team, but we talked about inside the 10... so far, can i trust to win outside vs CB1? He didn't win often vs Georgia. They overloaded his side a few times to get release. His seam was a nice release though vs man. 
• I think you're wrong on your "Burks/Pickens don't get separation.... they do, you're just talking about "out running" the DB. they position themselves to separation for the catch, or know how to attach the ball. That part is missing from Williams. You're talking about another guy relying on being schemed off the line and relying on burning the coverage. That's not going to happen outside every play. They'll just swing a safety over there. 
• Williams would be a good addition to the offense. Obviously. I would allow Moore to be more dynamic against defensive coverages. But... what's ailing us, the contested catches, the outside thread... big boy jump balls, red zone fades... I'm not sure he moves the needle a ton there. 

Certainly not a bust risk like brown was.  It really depends what youre looking for.  You're clear you want the big body jump ball throw it up guy.  Which is great, i agree they need that which is why i wouldnt bat an eye at drafting burks or a guy like london who understand how to use their big frames to go up for a ball.  

My contention with building the roster is this.  No one on offense scares anyone, outside of maybe Moore. What Williams speed does for you is force you to respect now 2 very fast WR's.  You have to play 2 high the majority of the time against that, so that firstly opens up the run game more especially with teams having to play more nickle i just softens the box greatly.   Also, for better or worse you brought Davis in here to be that big bodied contested catch player, so far that looks like a bust, but he's still here for 2 more years.  Id rather take Williams speed in the first and allow more space for Moore and Davis to work those intermediate levels personally.  Then if you have a shot at a Pickens later on take him too for the hell of it. Again though I wouldn't bat an eye at them taking a bigger bodied guy as well, i just dont think it effects the Defense as much for this team. 

[derp]

52 minutes ago, win4ever said:

I think the case with Burrow, or with any QB really in college, is that the system fit matters as well.  I don't think he was quite a good fit for the Meyer offense, because that's a horizontal offense with minimal reads.  It's much more reliant on natural talent (be it a running QB, or very strong arm) and discounts mental acumen.  Essentially the system provides the reads, you just have to be good enough physically to take advantage.  He thrived at LSU because he had a system that utilized his ability to make reads better (Didn't hurt to have a treasure trove of stud receivers) which fits his profile much better.  

I think it's different for receivers because it's mostly physical match ups, outside of manufactured catches.  Famous example would be Tavon Austin in college, getting a bunch of mesh concept catches, rub routes, quick screens, etc.  I don't think those apply here.  I like Williams a lot, and he did get open at OSU but it makes me wonder why he couldn't outshine them, because they weren't using the Meyer concepts to get receivers touches.  They pushed it down the field a lot.  

Although to be honest, I haven't dug deep into this class, so just my initial thoughts.  I feel like both Wilson/Olave are better route runners, while Williams has the better overall physical profile/speed.  At this point, I tend to lean towards smooth route runners over the physical profile guys because I think it translates easier to the NFL.  

I think chasing upside has to be Burks, because he fits the system like a glove and probably has the highest potential of the group.  I really like Wilson in the draft because he's very good at setting up his routes, reminds me somewhat of Moore/DeVonta.  

Certainly wide receiver is different than quarterback - but I do think fit matters both ways. Ohio State had good receivers for sure, I don’t think they really needed Williams because Olave and Wilson are steady and plus athletes at the college level. Williams then went to Alabama and has produced ahead of Metchie who was a projected first round pick - Alabama had more of a need and it turns out Williams is really good. He’s flashed some nuance in route running too from what I’ve seen and Alabama has an awesome track record with receivers. It will definitely be really interesting to see how a skill guy transfer translates but I do think Williams’ time at OSU knocking him below the OSU guys is an oversimplification. Olave was older, too, and a very good college player - no reason to replace him.

I think Olave and Wilson are steadier guys for sure but lack the physical upside. I’ve said this before but put those guys on a team like Buffalo or the Chargers and I think they produce on a good offense across from an alpha receiver. I don’t know if they move the needle much for a team like the Jets or the Bears for example, though it’s possible I’m underrating their physical profiles. I loved Justin Jefferson coming out and right now think of Wilson and Olave as a tick below him.

Overall I think what it boils down to is I believe Jets need a field tilter/offensive centerpiece more than a good receiver and Williams/Burks have a better chance to be the former whereas Wilson/Olave have a higher probability of being the latter.

[Paradis]

6 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

No one on offense scares anyone, outside of maybe Moore. What Williams speed does for you is force you to respect now 2 very fast WR's.  You have to play 2 high the majority of the time against that, so that firstly opens up the run game more especially with teams having to play more nickle i just softens the box greatly.   

100%, Abso-tootin'-lutely.

I'm just not paying a top 15 pick for that. There's too much situational football in 60 mins of gametime for me to call his name vs the various defenders, oline and options at WR later. I'll keep watching Willams, but i don't that perspective will change.

[RedBeardedSavage]

5 hours ago, Barton said:

Sure seems like there are some GOOD wr prospects in this draft - but there arent 1-2 guys who really stand out above the rest.

WR is also a highly bustable pick, in general. Seems like a very risky pick in this draft especially. 

Jets would be wise to acquire a #1 in free agency/trade market, if possible, instead. 

I'd prefer to wait for the combine and see if certain receivers separate themselves with athleticism. 

If Jameson is genuinely a 4.3 player coming off a 1500 yard season, or Burks is 4.4 at his listed size with that production, I can't argue with taking either one of them top 10. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

3 minutes ago, Paradis said:

100%, Abso-tootin'-lutely.

I'm just not paying a top 15 pick for that. There's too much situational football in 60 mins of gametime for me to call his name vs the various defenders, oline and options at WR later. I'll keep watching Willams, but i don't that perspective will change.

What do you think of the Jameson / Waddle comparisons?

[Chrebetfan80]

4 hours ago, Paradis said:

100%, Abso-tootin'-lutely.

I'm just not paying a top 15 pick for that. There's too much situational football in 60 mins of gametime for me to call his name vs the various defenders, oline and options at WR later. I'll keep watching Willams, but i don't that perspective will change.

See i see what youre saying and acknowledge it, but I dont feel the WR's later in the draft offer the immediate value of a guy like Williams who is certainly more than a deep threat.  I really think predraft he'll surprise people with just how nuanced he is as from a technical standpoint.  His ability to come out of breaks is special, and while you wont see it often on tape in alabama you see it in spurts.  Like moore last year with ole miss, you dont get a chance to see all the special things the kid can do. 

My only concern is release moves (ive seen some good ones from him but guys play off alot because of his speed) and his weight. otherwise the kid is physical, and can do a lot for any offense.  

Im also on record saying i believe Wilson is the best wr in this drat so you can see where my priorities lay when scouting wrs. 

[Paradis]

3 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

See i see what youre saying and acknowledge it, but I dont feel the WR's later in the draft offer the immediate value of a guy like Williams who is certainly more than a deep threat.  I really think predraft he'll surprise people with just how nuanced he is as from a technical standpoint.  His ability to come out of breaks is special, and while you wont see it often on tape in alabama you see it in spurts.  Like moore last year with ole miss, you dont get a chance to see all the special things the kid can do. 

My only concern is release moves (ive seen some good ones from him but guys play off alot because of his speed) and his weight. otherwise the kid is physical, and can do a lot for any offense.  

Im also on record saying i believe Wilson is the best wr in this drat so you can see where my priorities lay when scouting wrs. 

All true, but at the end of the day, if you can't catch a ball while another man's mitts are on you -- that's a problem for me. I don't like what I saw in that respect when i took a (limited) close look, but I hope i'm wrong. 

[Paradis]

8 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

What do you think of the Jameson / Waddle comparisons?

I dunno. I think it's easy to go there with the jersey and the abundance of those LOS sweeps/screens/wheels/etc and the both explode out of their breaks/windows with the ball. I'm guilty of not spending a ton of time breaking down Waddle's game, so maybe @Chrebetfan80or @sec101row23 can you give an answer to that. Waddle is built different that Williams though and had more "punch" the way he played DBs, versus what i've seen from Williams cutting through defenses like a hot knife in butter.

[Paradis]

8 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Certainly not a bust risk like brown was.  It really depends what youre looking for.  You're clear you want the big body jump ball throw it up guy.  Which is great, i agree they need that which is why i wouldnt bat an eye at drafting burks or a guy like london who understand how to use their big frames to go up for a ball.  

I was thinking about this more today and what @derp was saying about my propensity to gush over that... and i think it not just jump ball ability... I think there's nothing more pure and coveted at the position than when WRs can basically "ignore" the DB as they track the ball, high point and sort of almost unconsciously position themselves/their body to make the catch. If you have that inherent skill or trait, you can work on your feet, routes, tops, DB manipulation... but always be able to catch a ball regardless of down and distance, score, coverage, etc etc  I think part of that is developed from a lifetime of being bigger than the DB and not giving a sh*t if he's draped on you. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

14 hours ago, Paradis said:

I dunno. I think it's easy to go there with the jersey and the abundance of those LOS sweeps/screens/wheels/etc and the both explode out of their breaks/windows with the ball. I'm guilty of not spending a ton of time breaking down Waddle's game, so maybe @Chrebetfan80or @sec101row23 can you give an answer to that. Waddle is built different that Williams though and had more "punch" the way he played DBs, versus what i've seen from Williams cutting through defenses like a hot knife in butter.

It's an easy comparison, as you say, because Alabama + Speed + Give-this-guy-the-ball collegiate offense.

I'm not a guru, but it's that time of the season where I start to read about prospects.

And the Jets definitely need another receiver. Watching Chase light it up for the Bengals all year (and Waddle in Miami) has me convinced of that. 

Starting to think the only way out of this mess is drafting whichever one of these receivers elevates their stock during athletic testing, a TE and RB in round 2 - and maybe even an offensive tackle again in the first if Becton is genuinely a bust. 

Wilson might be a bust, but it damn well better not be because we didn't support him enough. 

[IntoTheGreen]

My first impressions (and after these videos ill go back and watch full game tape) is that none of them are top 10 picks and are far below the last two classes. I wish there was a Julio or Megatron this draft. Would be exciting to have a real shot at an offensive game changer, but it's not here, IMO. I think I lean towards William's electric speed or Burks physical abilities and hope for the best. London just looks like a slow posession reciever at the next level. Not really what I would spend a high pick on. Would've loved to see his 40 time more than the others. 

[derp]

34 minutes ago, IntoTheGreen said:

My first impressions (and after these videos ill go back and watch full game tape) is that none of them are top 10 picks and are far below the last two classes. I wish there was a Julio or Megatron this draft. Would be exciting to have a real shot at an offensive game changer, but it's not here, IMO. I think I lean towards William's electric speed or Burks physical abilities and hope for the best. London just looks like a slow posession reciever at the next level. Not really what I would spend a high pick on. Would've loved to see his 40 time more than the others. 

There hasn’t been a Julio or Megatron since Julio a decade ago. The 2003-2011 classes really warped my perception of top of the draft wide receivers. Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Megatron, Julio, AJ Green. Top of the draft has been different since those guys. Mike Evans was probably the closest and even he was back in 2014.

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 hour ago, derp said:

There hasn’t been a Julio or Megatron since Julio a decade ago. The 2003-2011 classes really warped my perception of top of the draft wide receivers. Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Megatron, Julio, AJ Green. Top of the draft has been different since those guys. Mike Evans was probably the closest and even he was back in 2014.

Chase was worthy of that pick last year. Some could argue J Jefferson or Ceedee could've went higher the year before. 

[derp]

3 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Chase was worthy of that pick last year. Some could argue J Jefferson or Ceedee could've went higher the year before. 

He's been great - though it’ll be interesting to see how his issues with drops impact his career - but different style of player than the guys I mentioned. Different was the word I used, too.

[Augustiniak]

2 hours ago, IntoTheGreen said:

My first impressions (and after these videos ill go back and watch full game tape) is that none of them are top 10 picks and are far below the last two classes. I wish there was a Julio or Megatron this draft. Would be exciting to have a real shot at an offensive game changer, but it's not here, IMO. I think I lean towards William's electric speed or Burks physical abilities and hope for the best. London just looks like a slow posession reciever at the next level. Not really what I would spend a high pick on. Would've loved to see his 40 time more than the others. 

I agree on London, he just does not get the separation and that’s alarming in college.  Burks would be a nice pick if they traded back.  But it’s easy to imagine saleh getting in douglas’ ear, begging him to go defense 2x in round 1 and then getting a wr in round 2.

[RedBeardedSavage]

17 minutes ago, derp said:

He's been great - though it’ll be interesting to see how his issues with drops impact his career - but different style of player than the guys I mentioned. Different was the word I used, too.

Most definitely - those dudes were absolute freaks.

And I read these threads am well aware you know a lot more about this than I do.

I'm just an advocate for taking a WR with the second of our first rounders. 

We have to see how the athletic testing goes - see if any are freakish. 

[IntoTheGreen]

12 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

I agree on London, he just does not get the separation and that’s alarming in college.  Burks would be a nice pick if they traded back.  But it’s easy to imagine saleh getting in douglas’ ear, begging him to go defense 2x in round 1 and then getting a wr in round 2.

Not sure it'll be Saleh in JDs ear. From a value standpoint I dont see WR at 7 being great. I think seeing who falls at the top of round 2 as a fine approach if they cant trade back since there doesn't seem to be that 1 standout WR.

[Augustiniak]

14 minutes ago, IntoTheGreen said:

Not sure it'll be Saleh in JDs ear. From a value standpoint I dont see WR at 7 being great. I think seeing who falls at the top of round 2 as a fine approach if they cant trade back since there doesn't seem to be that 1 standout WR.

I think we’ll see one of two scenarios play out:  1) jets go BAP pass rusher with their pick, then trade back and take best defender with Seattle’s pick.  In this scenario they would have at least 2 2nd rounders for wr/OL/TE.  2) jets go BAP pass rusher with their pick, trade back and take a wr in the first round.  I think unless something weird happens, the jets are going pass rusher early b/c they desperately need one, and b/c it will be hard to trade back with no clear qbs for other teams to trade up for.  But i do think saleh will be lobbying for defense in round 1 b/c they went offense with their first 4 picks last year.

[Paradis]

17 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

I think we’ll see one of two scenarios play out:  1) jets go BAP pass rusher with their pick, then trade back and take best defender with Seattle’s pick.  In this scenario they would have at least 2 2nd rounders for wr/OL/TE.  2) jets go BAP pass rusher with their pick, trade back and take a wr in the first round.  I think unless something weird happens, the jets are going pass rusher early b/c they desperately need one, and b/c it will be hard to trade back with no clear qbs for other teams to trade up for.  But i do think saleh will be lobbying for defense in round 1 b/c they went offense with their first 4 picks last year.

Typically it would be “hard” to see a scenario where 2 WRs are graded higher than some other positional prospects. That first pick; unless we have a really high grade on Burks or Williams - I don’t know if it’s realistic to think they’ll call either over some of the defensive players and OLINE names. A trade back would be ideal…. But you never know. CIN had all the reason in the world to take OLINE last year after Borrow got slaughtered and the team already had Boyd and Higgins… so who knows.