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Honest question--how does this defense get fixed?


Peace Frog
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Is it the DLine?  Is the the LBers.  Is it the secondary? Is it a lack of pass rush? Is it the system? Is it the coaching? 

I think we all understand that there is a dearth of talent across the board but what's the biggest issue in terms of talent?

I had thought our DLine was going to be a strength but it seems RBs are running through the middle of the line sometimes unabated.  The number of missed tackles behind the line is alarming.

But then we get to the LBers not making stops after a yard or 2 beyond the LOS. Or the inability to defend 80% of the bubble screens thrown at us.

The secondary has a bright spot or 2 but too often guys are running wide open without a DB within 10 yards of the receiver.  Is that just great route running by almost every WR we've faced or is it a combo of the lack of a pass rush and too much time for the QB to survey the field.

Honestly, I'm more interested in watching the offense and fixing that--have always been an offensive minded fan so I just cannot figure it out.

Do we load up on LBs?  And then do we take some of the undersized converted LB/Safties and convert them back to safety?  

Is that first pick--whatever it is--a pass rusher?  

Honest question for the defensive minded folks here.  

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There are a lot of holes. I think the #1 weakness on the D is the LB corps currently. We've been a juicy mid-rare steak up the middle to rushing teams all year. If you can't stop the run at the second level and force teams to take to the air, you're going to have a hard time with time of possession and winning football games. Until we can do that, even a great EDGE's impact will be limited.

 

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mostly the linebackers, Mosley is constantly out position, has no burst, no speed, no strenght, you bench that guy today, regardless of the outcome on Sundays, he could have 2 to 3 snaps a game at most, period....that is step 1

Step 2, offseason: sign S Marcus Williams and CB Carlton Davis. You couldnt´t or shouldn´t sign any Edge Rusher because the money already asigned to Carl Lawson and Vinny Curry. 

Step 3, draft: Depending on how the draft goes, maybe we get Aidan Hutchinson or Thibodeaux, if we don´t it is not the end of the world. Draft LB Brandon Smith from Penn State in the second round. Draft Chad Muma from Wyoming, CB Josh Jobe from Alabama, and S Isaiah PolaMao from USC in the later rounds. 

Defense Fixed.

DL Carl Lawson

DL Quinnen Williams

DL Folorunso Fatukasi

DL John Franklin Meyers

LB Quincy Williams

LB Brandon Smith

LB Chad Muma

CB Carlton Davis

CB Bryce Hall

S Marcus Williams

S Ashtyn Davis

Nickel Michael Carter II

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I think you’re going to get a wide range of answers here. Lol.

Personally, I think the biggest issue with our defense are our LBs and Safeties.

Our DL is doing what they're being asked to do which is shoot gaps. We get Carl Lawson back next year which will help (how much who knows). However, If an elite edge is available with our first pick, you have to take him since it’s so rare to be in position to draft an elite edge.

With that, this defense isn’t going anywhere without LBs who can cover and fill running lanes.  We also need Safeties who can cover ground. 

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1 minute ago, Peace Frog said:

Is it the DLine?  Is the the LBers.  Is it the secondary? Is it a lack of pass rush? Is it the system? Is it the coaching? 

I think we all understand that there is a dearth of talent across the board but what's the biggest issue in terms of talent?

I had thought our DLine was going to be a strength but it seems RBs are running through the middle of the line sometimes unabated.  The number of missed tackles behind the line is alarming.

But then we get to the LBers not making stops after a yard or 2 beyond the LOS. Or the inability to defend 80% of the bubble screens thrown at us.

The secondary has a bright spot or 2 but too often guys are running wide open without a DB within 10 yards of the receiver.  Is that just great route running by almost every WR we've faced or is it a combo of the lack of a pass rush and too much time for the QB to survey the field.

Honestly, I'm more interested in watching the offense and fixing that--have always been an offensive minded fan so I just cannot figure it out.

Do we load up on LBs?  And then do we take some of the undersized converted LB/Safties and convert them back to safety?  

Is that first pick--whatever it is--a pass rusher?  

Honest question for the defensive minded folks here.  

The DL has talent but it has to be supported by LB's which have been abysmal.  Mosley has all but disappeared.  JD counting teh days toi get out of his contract. Whats more concerning is Saleh's appraoach regarding LB's. There was an interesting post where the poster stated Saleh is guilty of forcing his philosophy when the players injected into it just dont have the talent to carry it out.  This seems very logical.  Pattern your defense arouind your players, not the other way around.  Putting safties in LB positions is just silly and has resulted in getting steamrolled by oppsoing teams.  The DL line will look very different next year. Lawson will be back. JD will draft an edghe - Hutch, Thibouex or Leal I presume, and there are some great LB's in the draft (B Smith, Muma, Lloyd, Dean, To'o, Harris - we should be able to get 2 of these guys, and CB's as well in Round 2-4 McDuffie, Gordon, Wright, Kendrick and safties - Brisker, Battle, Joseph, McKinley, O'Neal. On offense: RB - Spiller, Walker, Reese, TE's - Walydemeyer, Likely, ferguson, McBride, Ruckert, Kuithie, Otton, La Porta, OL - Linderboom, Patterson, Grren, Johnson, Neal, Cross, Ekwonu, Penning, Lucas. Its a very deep draft. Just depends on what JD wants to focus on.  Would love to see JD get an edge, a CB, 2 safties, 2 LB's, 2 OL ( C, G).  Thats 8 piscks. If he could trade back with that 2nd 1st rounder, we could grab an extra 2nd rounder.  That would be huge. This draft will be a great opportunity to transform this team. 

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3 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Get some dudes at LB and the defense would look completely different this year.  Our LBs are either slow and smart(Mosely) fast and learning(Williams) or outright useless(Davis).  Going to our 4th string safety this week isn’t helping either.

Saleh's defensive philosophy doesnt adhere to traditional LB's.  Its an odd approach and needs to be revisited. 

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Well the good thing for Jets is this upcoming draft is loaded with defense, and they have a ton of picks. So ideally they could have a draft like this and instantaneously upgrade their defense:

Pick 1: Thibodeaux, Hutchinson, Karlaftis 

Pick 2: Stingley, Hamilton, Booth 

2nd round picks: a ton of linebackers and secondary available… Dean, Harris, Jordan Battle, Lewis Cine etc 

I have a feeling Douglas will go all in on defense in this draft like he did it the offense last year 

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7 minutes ago, JTJet said:

gregg-williams-net-worth.jpg

there is truth to this,....Ulbrich has shown he is not resourceful at all, he is not, and he has allowed everyone to consider that he is actually not intelligent, that is on him, he did that

however, it is also true that the most of the available talent from the offseason is on the offense, so he will get another year

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1 minute ago, Rhg1084 said:

Well the good thing for Jets is this upcoming draft is loaded with defense, and they have a ton of picks. So ideally they could have a draft like this and instantaneously upgrade their defense:

Pick 1: Thibodeaux, Hutchinson, Karlaftis 

Pick 2: Stingey, Hamilton, Booth 

2nd round picks: a ton of linebackers and secondary available… Dean, Harris, Jordan Battle, Lewis Cine etc 

I have a feeling Douglas will go all in on defense in this draft like he did it the offense last year 

I agree but with that 2nd 1st rounder trade back a bit and take Linderboom.  He's just a generational talent at C and Zach needs a better OL. Just cant pass that up. We have numerous picks available and with a trade back can add a couple more.  

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Just now, Maynard13 said:

I agree but with that 2nd 1st rounder trade back a bit and take Linderboom.  He's just a generational talent at C and Zach needs a better OL. Just cant pass that up. We have numerous picks available and with a trade back can add a couple more.  

I’d say sign a big time IOL in free agency instead to patch up that RG spot. Ideally Brandon Schreff. Then Douglas can focus on defense in this draft. Too many good players available to be drafting a center with a top pick

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2 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

Well the good thing for Jets is this upcoming draft is loaded with defense, and they have a ton of picks. So ideally they could have a draft like this and instantaneously upgrade their defense:

Pick 1: Thibodeaux, Hutchinson, Karlaftis 

Pick 2: Stingey, Hamilton, Booth 

2nd round picks: a ton of linebackers and secondary available… Dean, Harris, Jordan Battle, Lewis Cine etc 

I have a feeling Douglas will go all in on defense in this draft like he did it the offense last year 

“Take what the Draft gives you” is a phrase I use and this 2022 Draft is giving defenders.

I agree with your approach but I would also try to shoehorn one or two guys at either OL, WR or TE by the end of Round 4. If the Jets first 3 out of 4 picks (Rounds 1, 1, 2, 2) are Edge, DB, LB I’d be happy. Sneak a WR or OL in there with the fourth pick.

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I cannot imagine that a defensive line rotation of Quinnen Williams, Sheldon Rankins, JFM, Foley Fatukasi, Bryce Huff, Nathan Shepard, Shaq Lawson, and Kyle Phillips could possibly be this bad against the run. It is my opinion that poor LB/safety play and play calling has turned this DL into a sieve. I'm not saying that we have a world class DL, but it should have been one of our strengths, even with Carl Lawson and Vinny Curry out.

We desperately need an upgrade at LB and Safety. With a proper pass rush and help from the safety, our CB room is adequate. Not saying that we don't bring in another CB, but we should focus first on LB and Safety. I feel ok with Hall, Echols, and MCII. 

As the personnel improves, the play calling will improve by default. A bad play call with good players will sometimes work. A great play call with a thin and inexperienced crew will sometimes look like a bad play call. 

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Just now, Rhg1084 said:

I’d say sign a big time IOL in free agency instead to patch up that RG spot. Ideally Brandon Schreff. Then Douglas can focus on defense in this draft. Too many good players available to be drafting a center with a top pick

Ok but Linderboom is no ordinary center. Think of an OL of Becton, AVT, Linderboom, Schreff, Fant.  We have plenty of picks in rounds 2,3,4 to focus on LB, S, CB 

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8 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

I’d say sign a big time IOL in free agency instead to patch up that RG spot. Ideally Brandon Schreff. Then Douglas can focus on defense in this draft. Too many good players available to be drafting a center with a top pick

Schreff would have been a Jet had he fallen just one pick. 🙄

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49 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Is it the DLine?  Is the the LBers.  Is it the secondary? Is it a lack of pass rush? Is it the system? Is it the coaching? 

I think we all understand that there is a dearth of talent across the board but what's the biggest issue in terms of talent?

I had thought our DLine was going to be a strength but it seems RBs are running through the middle of the line sometimes unabated.  The number of missed tackles behind the line is alarming.

But then we get to the LBers not making stops after a yard or 2 beyond the LOS. Or the inability to defend 80% of the bubble screens thrown at us.

The secondary has a bright spot or 2 but too often guys are running wide open without a DB within 10 yards of the receiver.  Is that just great route running by almost every WR we've faced or is it a combo of the lack of a pass rush and too much time for the QB to survey the field.

Honestly, I'm more interested in watching the offense and fixing that--have always been an offensive minded fan so I just cannot figure it out.

Do we load up on LBs?  And then do we take some of the undersized converted LB/Safties and convert them back to safety?  

Is that first pick--whatever it is--a pass rusher?  

Honest question for the defensive minded folks here.  

Trade both first round picks for the number one pick and a third rounder and then take Aiden Hutchinson of Michigan. I would also draft a hard hitting safety or two and fire Jeff Ulbrich. Saleh would be next on the firing line if the D looked this bad next year also.

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after reading that thread on this defensive scheme i am convinced it doesnt work without an all pro defense which is a big ask. 

i say change the scheme thats how you fix it.

draft and edge with the 1st pick and draft a LB or CB with the 2nd.  i only change that for a WR if anyone is really good. 

the word is out how to beat this defense. just run the ball. this scheme is out dated and doesnt work

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25 minutes ago, Ecuadorian Jet said:

mostly the linebackers, Mosley is constantly out position, has no burst, no speed, no strenght, you bench that guy today, regardless of the outcome on Sundays, he could have 2 to 3 snaps a game at most, period....that is step 1

Step 2, offseason: sign S Marcus Williams and CB Carlton Davis. You couldnt´t or shouldn´t sign any Edge Rusher because the money already asigned to Carl Lawson and Vinny Curry. 

Step 3, draft: Depending on how the draft goes, maybe we get Aidan Hutchinson or Thibodeaux, if we don´t it is not the end of the world. Draft LB Brandon Smith from Penn State in the second round. Draft Chad Muma from Wyoming, CB Josh Jobe from Alabama, and S Isaiah PolaMao from USC in the later rounds. 

Defense Fixed.

DL Carl Lawson

DL Quinnen Williams

DL Folorunso Fatukasi

DL John Franklin Meyers

LB Quincy Williams

LB Brandon Smith

LB Chad Muma

CB Carlton Davis

CB Bryce Hall

S Marcus Williams

S Ashtyn Davis

Nickel Michael Carter II

Ashtyn Davis won't tackle anyone. Mosley is the Jets leading tackler although it is mostly five yards beyond the LOS.

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8 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

 

We desperately need an upgrade at LB and Safety.  

 

So do we convert Sherwood and Hamsah back to Safety?

Fix two problems at once?  They obvioulsy liked the players, why not just put them back at their natural position and load up on LBs that weigh more than 220?

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The LB's and Safeties are not very good, few would start on a top 20 team. The DL *should* be a strength but injury to the top rushing DL the Jets signed in FA caused expectations of a great pass rush to be put on hold until next year. Still, the rest of the DL should be able to stop the run. The numbers against Miami were really bad.

The system Salah brings with him does not work with our current players. How many drafts and big $$$ FA's signings is it going to take to fill the D roster sufficiently so that Salah can play the D he insists on rolling out every week. 

The D is historically bad (NOT because of Zach - who had a fantastic 1/2 half vs Miami) but because it starts with drafting players that will be good in the NFL and not just did well in the NCAA. Idzak and Macc left the cupboard bare but JD has had two drafts and 2.5 FA off seasons and the D roster is w/o much NFL level talent. And I don't buy that JD picked Gase's players his 1st year so he get a bye for that draft - I say BS. JD was the GM and *he* made the picks.

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9 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

So do we convert Sherwood and Hamsah back to Safety?

Fix two problems at once?  They obvioulsy liked the players, why not just put them back at their natural position and load up on LBs that weigh more than 220?

I've thought of that, but are they safety material, or are they hybrids that are not very good at either position? Let's split the difference and let one beef up to LB size and let the other slim down for safety. 

On a side note, was it just me who thought that this defense was going to be revolutionary with all sorts of different looks and fronts? 

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Personally, I believe the issue is scheme.

Saleh's defense seems to emphasize attacking dlineman getting up the field as quickly as possible. There is no 2 gap responsibility and very little emphasis placed on setting the edge. I guess the though process is that if you're in the backfield asap, you've disrupted the play and it will fail before it begins.

There are a few problems with this thought process.

1. We don't have nick bosa, erik armstead, deforest buckner rushing up field

2. Teams know we don't have the personnel to pull it off and are making adjustments accordingly

3. We don't have the LBs to cover up the fact that the dline is not responsible to stop the run. You need super athletic run and tackle LBs who can chase down RBs when they slip through the line. We don't have a patrick willis or navarro bowman or fred warner on this team.

4. The last line of defense, our safeties, take horrible angles and can't tackle anyone. In fact, the whole team stinks at tackling.

Long story short, Saleh's scheme only works if you have the exact perfect personnel to run it. We are a long way away from that. 

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12 minutes ago, doitny said:

after reading that thread on this defensive scheme i am convinced it doesnt work without an all pro defense which is a big ask. 

i say change the scheme thats how you fix it.

draft and edge with the 1st pick and draft a LB or CB with the 2nd.  i only change that for a WR if anyone is really good. 

the word is out how to beat this defense. just run the ball. this scheme is out dated and doesnt work

A guy over at Jet X wrote a great piece on this a while back.  His point was Ullbrich is from the Pete Carroll/Dan Quinn tree and is relying on what he saw with the Legion of Boom.  Problem is that defense was only effective when it had five Pro Bowlers playing for it.  Dudes like Chancellor, Sherman etc. left or got old and the scheme failed...

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The LBs can use some work but the coaching has to get a lot better. Unfortunately both sides of the ball still need significant roster improvement so neither side is going to get all the best FA and draft picks in the offseason. We can't expand all the resources on defense to bail out bad coaching and hope for Rex Ryan style 16-10 games where defense fights all game long to win on a few field goals. Assuming all the injured players come back in good shape the LBs are undoubtedly the weakest spot on that side and allocating resources there would produce the best result. 

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All of the above points are relevant - is the scheme the right one, improve at LB and S mainly, more pass rush isn't ever a bad thing. The one thing I would add - and this isn't an attempt to go off topic and rip particular players - is complementary football.

A good pass rush is best when you know an opponent has to pass. This usually comes when the opponent is playing catch up - and this has scarcely happened at all this year. Teams can afford to grind it out on the ground because more often than not they are leading. If we can flip that script a bit I reckon we'll see our pass rush get home a lot more often than it currently does.

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