Jets allowed six sacks vs Miami

[AFJF]

And there was some grumbling about the OL which was unfair IMO.  No team in the NFL has a 4th string LT who was going to slow down Miami's pass rush and that was the only OL to allow a sack.  

The sacks were given up by McDermott, Michael Carter, the play call (one on a naked boot where Miami had the perfect play call to get to Zach with no blockers on that side).  Could even say Zach held on too long once or twice.

There was one that you COULD pin on Moses but it looked like Zach left a clean(ish) pocket and headed toward the guy Moses was blocking and handed him the sack.

[JustInFudge]

Interesting, they gave up, what, 2?  With Flacco in there? 

[Barton]

Wilson definitely makes the Oline look worse. If you notice, when the sack is his fault, the Olineman just kind of look at him while he's on the ground and dont walk over to him to offer a hand. Pretty telling. Sometimes they even turn their back alittle towards him while he's getting sacked/on the ground. 

[rangerous]

23 minutes ago, AFJF said:

And there was some grumbling about the OL which was unfair IMO.  No team in the NFL has a 4th string LT who was going to slow down Miami's pass rush and that was the only OL to allow a sack.  

The sacks were given up by McDermott, Michael Carter, the play call (one on a naked boot where Miami had the perfect play call to get to Zach with no blockers on that side).  Could even say Zach held on too long once or twice.

There was one that you COULD pin on Moses but it looked like Zach left a clean(ish) pocket and headed toward the guy Moses was blocking and handed him the sack.

wilson is his own enemy a lot of the time.  i know that on at least one of the sacks he had a receiver on a crossing pattern that was open had he thrown the ball quicker.  no having a good screen pass game means he needs to hit those passes.  as for the oline, it does look a lot better.  it certainly helps when the run game is working.  the doltfins shut that down in the second half and forced wilson to throw.  kind of text book game strategy.

[Irish Jet]

A lot of the sacks were guys coming through untouched completely unaccounted for. I imagine that a lot of that is on Wilson but McGovern has to do more to help out. We're an awful team before the snap but we make up for that by being equally bad after it.

[The Crusher]

46 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Interesting, they gave up, what, 2?  With Flacco in there? 

It seems the concept  that an unsure QB who holds the ball too long, struggles seeing the field and moves backwards in the pocket just may contribute to the sacks. The lineman block expecting the QB to step up. If he moves backwards it changes the angle and leads to sacks. 

[AFJF]

11 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

A lot of the sacks were guys coming through untouched completely unaccounted for. I imagine that a lot of that is on Wilson but McGovern has to do more to help out. We're an awful team before the snap but we make up for that by being equally bad after it.

Only two got to him 'untouched".  One was on the boot I mentioned and the other where it looked as if Michael Carter was responsible for picking up any rushers but didn't see the defender coming off the edge and bailed early.  Broadcasters may have even mentioned it IIRC.

[OilfieldJet]

12 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

We're an awful team before the snap but we make up for that by being equally bad after it.

What an indictment.

[DetroitRed]

I would say most of it is on Zach, but last week the LT situation was a joke.  Can’t  play QB with that guy on the blind side

[AFJF]

48 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Interesting, they gave up, what, 2?  With Flacco in there? 

Right, but almost half of Flacco's yardage came on throws to Elijah Moore while Wilson was working with much less.  Flacco also had one of the best pass blocking LT's in the NFL as opposed Conor McDermott.  That's pretty important IMO.

[Drums]

There's really no one person to blame for the group of sacks. The thing I liked about Mike White and Flacco is that they got the ball out fast under pressure. There were a bunch of times Mike White was about to get sacked and got the ball out. Zach does not have that part of his game yet but I do see improvement, still not where it should be. One thing though is Zach needs to stop running backwards when he senses pressure. It works 1 time out of 10, the others are just awful losses.

[JustInFudge]

4 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Right, but almost half of Flacco's yardage came on throws to Elijah Moore while Wilson was working with much less.  Flacco also had one of the best pass blocking LT's in the NFL as opposed Conor McDermott.  That's pretty important IMO.

No doubt, just pointing it out.  There was plenty of blame go around for handling the pass rush from Sunday.

[T0mShane]

Zach Wilson, who is terrific, was sacked 11 times in twelve games last year at BYU. He has zero instincts in the pocket and lacks the athleticism to get out of the pocket. Add to it he has the body mass of a pipe cleaner, so when he’s touched he goes down like he was shot by multiple snipers at the same time. Terrific player in a tragic spot playing with coaches who are going to get him killed.

[AFJF]

[Web72]

There plenty of blame to go around. 

Zach held the ball too long. But also saved 2 or 3 sacks by avoiding free rushers

OL did a terrible job vs a heavy blitz team

WRs struggled to get any separation vs two of the best man cover corners in the league. 
 

Pre-snap recognition was pretty bad too. Not sure if it’s fair blame all of that on a rookie QB. If Zach was a 5 year vet, then yes but I’m going to blame the pre-snap stuff on our veteran center. 

[varjet]

The Jets started the season with basically 6 "starting OL", one of which was a fatal wink link that derailed the entire offense.

Becton, AVT, CM, GVR and Moses, with Fant the swing T.  After a few minutes Fant replaced Becton, and after LDT replaced GVR, the OL actually played solid average.

The bench then was GVR, Feeney, Edoga and McDermott.  I suspect most of those guys will not be in the NFL next year.  Maybe McDermott because T's are rare.  

So, to put a decent team on the field next year, Moses and LDT have to be extended or replaced (which could be with Becton) and then 4 new depth pieces (which could be C Clark for one) need to be acquired.  Long shot.  And to avoid a complete unravelment, JD needs to line up most of his 2023 OL while he has bargaining position.  

[Ken Schroy]

Leger Douzable did an excellent breakdown of about 5 plays from the Fins game on SNY Jets Gameplan yesterday. He showed 3 plays where Zach did a good job on the blitz and 2 plays where he "needs to do better". It was quite good, but unfortunately it's not available on their website for me to link to it.

[rtnelson]

The thing about the 6 videos just posted on the sacks is it that it doesn't really tell the full story.

We just had a 42 minute video where an unbiased very knowledgeable guy went on to explain how several of those that look bad had no options to throw to.  Either through play design or lack of talent in our receivers getting open there's a lot more going on here than watching a video showing only the pocket.

This is not to say this absolves Zach of all the blame, of course you can point to some that are his fault.  But to attempt to compare the product on the field against what we had previously in the season is a bit silly.  I would not expect any QB to come out and look great under the circumstances, much less a rookie facing a very tough defense for the first time in his career.

Yet we are about to enter in to a game where a ridiculous amount of guys are missing, and when Zach doesn't look perfect I'm sure guys will throw their hands up and officially label him a bust.

[varjet]

Zach had limited receiving options in the Dolphins game, and even if he did, as said above, he was facing two of the best CBs in the NFL.  His first priority is to not throw interceptions, and he has gotten much better at that.  So as he learns he takes sacks rather than throw up risky balls or intentional groundings. 

[T0mShane]

12 minutes ago, varjet said:

Zach had limited receiving options in the Dolphins game, and even if he did, as said above, he was facing two of the best CBs in the NFL.  His first priority is to not throw interceptions, and he has gotten much better at that.  So as he learns he takes sacks rather than throw up risky balls or intentional groundings. 

I watched Fields vs the Vikings, who lead the league in sacks, and Fields was able to escape the pocket, keep plays alive, or run downfield at will. I know that Fields, like Wilson, has been a statistical nightmare, but it looked like his team really rallied around him because he was battling on every play to make something happen against all odds, which is infectious. It feels like the opposite with Wilson, imo. The team is so low-energy, Zach* gives them little to no chance on plays that break down, and the coaches have forced him into this low-risk, no-fight mode of play normally reserved for your QB3 Garrett Gilbert types.

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

Must have been watching a different game.  The OLine and overall blocking stunk!  I didn’t see anyone consistently winning 1:1 battles and several times the entire pocket collapsed.

Agree that other games Zack was a big part of the problem.  Not sure how anyone can blame him for the sacks in this game.

He stepped up several times where I screamed run .. 

I saw little pride or fire from the OLine.  Just confusion and apathy.

 

[Prodigal Syndicate]

A lot of it is Wilson.

34 sacks in 10 games on him. 

4 sacks in 4 games on White

[Drums]

27 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I watched Fields vs the Vikings, who lead the league in sacks, and Fields was able to escape the pocket, keep plays alive, or run downfield at will. I know that Fields, like Wilson, has been a statistical nightmare, but it looked like his team really rallied around him because he was battling on every play to make something happen against all odds, which is infectious. It feels like the opposite with Wilson, imo. The team is so low-energy, Zach* gives them little to no chance on plays that break down, and the coaches have forced him into this low-risk, no-fight mode of play normally reserved for your QB3 Garrett Gilbert types.

He does strike me as low energy for some reason but it's kind of the same on defense so I think it's hard to blame him when typically, the team takes on the personality of the HC. A play I can't seem to get out of my head is when his helmet popped off and he threw it at the ground. Baller QBs would have kept playing even when the whistle blew. He was being smart and safe but for some reason it left a bad taste in my mouth. Fitz would have head butted someone.

[AFJF]

22 minutes ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

Must have been watching a different game.  The OLine and overall blocking stunk!  I didn’t see anyone consistently winning 1:1 battles and several times the entire pocket collapsed.

Agree that other games Zack was a big part of the problem.  Not sure how anyone can blame him for the sacks in this game.

He stepped up several times where I screamed run .. 

I saw little pride or fire from the OLine.  Just confusion and apathy.

 

We were watching the same game, but you were perhaps assuming the LG, C, RG and RT were responsible for some of the sacks on Wilson.  They were not.  It was the fourth-string LT, the RB's the TE's and the scheme itself.  

[AFJF]

10 minutes ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

A lot of it is Wilson.

34 sacks in 10 games on him. 

4 sacks in 4 games on White

Fifteen of those 34 in his first three NFL games.  Six others against Miami with no open receivers and Conor McDermott.

'Quicker decision making and getting the ball out in a hurry is an area where we've seen significant improvement.  

Even with no live game experience, White is a guy who has had a few years to work and learn to be an NFL QB.  It was actually nice to see him, Johnson and Flacco play well in this offense.  It means the receivers and OC aren't an issue.  It's about Zach getting better, which he is doing.

Edited December 24, 2021 by AFJF

[varjet]

34 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I watched Fields vs the Vikings, who lead the league in sacks, and Fields was able to escape the pocket, keep plays alive, or run downfield at will. I know that Fields, like Wilson, has been a statistical nightmare, but it looked like his team really rallied around him because he was battling on every play to make something happen against all odds, which is infectious. It feels like the opposite with Wilson, imo. The team is so low-energy, Zach* gives them little to no chance on plays that break down, and the coaches have forced him into this low-risk, no-fight mode of play normally reserved for your QB3 Garrett Gilbert types.

Good points.  Justin Fields can do that because that has been his game, and he is built like a truck and runs like a gazelle.   If I were taking a flyer on a QB at 2 I would have taken Fields, but the NFL generally did not like him.  

[AFJF]

37 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I watched Fields vs the Vikings, who lead the league in sacks, and Fields was able to escape the pocket, keep plays alive, or run downfield at will. I know that Fields, like Wilson, has been a statistical nightmare, but it looked like his team really rallied around him because he was battling on every play to make something happen against all odds, which is infectious. It feels like the opposite with Wilson, imo. The team is so low-energy, Zach* gives them little to no chance on plays that break down, and the coaches have forced him into this low-risk, no-fight mode of play normally reserved for your QB3 Garrett Gilbert types.

Kind of unrelated, but saw the other day that Fields has 12 fumbles.  Sheesh.

Edited December 24, 2021 by AFJF

[Hal N of Provo]

40 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I watched Fields vs the Vikings, who lead the league in sacks, and Fields was able to escape the pocket, keep plays alive, or run downfield at will. I know that Fields, like Wilson, has been a statistical nightmare, but it looked like his team really rallied around him because he was battling on every play to make something happen against all odds, which is infectious. It feels like the opposite with Wilson, imo. The team is so low-energy, Zach* gives them little to no chance on plays that break down, and the coaches have forced him into this low-risk, no-fight mode of play normally reserved for your QB3 Garrett Gilbert types.

Uh ok Skippy.  
 

Did you watch the Jets game too, or just the Dreamy Justin Fields? 

[Charlie Brown]

1 hour ago, Web72 said:

There plenty of blame to go around. 

Zach held the ball too long. But also saved 2 or 3 sacks by avoiding free rushers

OL did a terrible job vs a heavy blitz team

WRs struggled to get any separation vs two of the best man cover corners in the league. 
 

Pre-snap recognition was pretty bad too. Not sure if it’s fair blame all of that on a rookie QB. If Zach was a 5 year vet, then yes but I’m going to blame the pre-snap stuff on our veteran center. 

Zach seemed pretty good in the first half, just saying!

[Jet_Engine1]

[T0mShane]

13 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Uh ok Skippy.  
 

Did you watch the Jets game too, or just the Dreamy Justin Fields? 

I watched the Jets game, got really depressed, and heard that Fields was awful, too, so I tuned into that and saw the Chicago Bears—whose head coach is already fired—fighting their little hearts out to beat the Vikings. I grew more depressed.

[Drums]

24 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Fifteen of those 34 in his first three NFL games.  Six others against Miami with no open receivers and Conor McDermott.

'Quicker decision making and getting the ball out in a hurry is an area where we've seen significant improvement.  

Even with no live game experience, White is a guy who has had a few years to work and learn to be an NFL QB.  It was actually nice to see him, Johnson and Flacco play well in this offense.  It means the receivers and OC aren't an issue.  It's about Zach getting better, which he is doing.

Looking back at it now, it is easy to see he should have sat for at least half the season or more with a vet QB to learn under. Same goes for some other spots. It is what it is. We gotta live with it now and hope it all works out. 

[Drums]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I watched the Jets game, got really depressed, and heard that Fields was awful, too, so I tuned into that and saw the Chicago Bears—whose head coach is already fired—fighting their little hearts out to beat the Vikings. I grew more depressed.

I wonder how Bears fans are feeling. The ones I talk to so badly want Nagy out of there. 

[The Crusher]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I watched the Jets game, got really depressed, and heard that Fields was awful, too, so I tuned into that and saw the Chicago Bears—whose head coach is already fired—fighting their little hearts out to beat the Vikings. I grew more depressed.

Not sure about you, but “ Im dreaming of  a Mike White Christmas!” Maybe Covid Claus will bring it to us?  

[Beerfish]

Glad to see shi**y oline play blame being put exactly where it belongs, on the QB, especially a 10 game rookie.

At least we know that Lamar Jackson, Justin Fields, Ryan Tannehill and joe burrow are worse QBs that the jets group!