Jets allowed six sacks vs Miami

[FidelioJet]

Wilson was not the problem against Miami. Nor was he the reason for the sacks.   
Wishful thinking from many of you, but unfortunately for you, Zach didn’t cause those sacks.  
 

[FidelioJet]

2 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

A lot of the sacks were guys coming through untouched completely unaccounted for. I imagine that a lot of that is on Wilson but McGovern has to do more to help out. We're an awful team before the snap but we make up for that by being equally bad after it.

Serious question. 
you stated guys are coming through untouched - abs you imagine that’s on Wilson.  
Was that a serious statement or Sarcasm?

[AFJF]

19 minutes ago, Drums said:

Looking back at it now, it is easy to see he should have sat for at least half the season or more with a vet QB to learn under. Same goes for some other spots. It is what it is. We gotta live with it now and hope it all works out. 

Yeah, modern day NFL.  Insanely rare a top 5 QB sits.  49ers did it because they drafted a dude who had what amounted to little more than 1 college season against teams that make BYU's opponents look like the SEC.

[Drums]

16 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Yeah, modern day NFL.  Insanely rare a top 5 QB sits.  49ers did it because they drafted a dude who had what amounted to little more than 1 college season against teams that make BYU's opponents look like the SEC.

When it comes down to it, there are many ways to skin a cat. Hopefully we finally get lucky for once. 

[varjet]

2 hours ago, Drums said:

Looking back at it now, it is easy to see he should have sat for at least half the season or more with a vet QB to learn under. Same goes for some other spots. It is what it is. We gotta live with it now and hope it all works out. 

JD really blew it here.  The Johnsons must have insisted that their investment be deployed right away. 

There was no logical reason to start Wilson day 1 from podunk U if we wanted to develop him and the offense generally.  

If Flacco or Josh Johnson played while Zach learned, maybe he played in 2021, maybe he did .

He definitely plays in 2022.  He struggles.  Growing pains!  Give him 2023.  If he stunk then, then everyone gets fired.

Now, if Zack stinks in 2022, everyone gets fired a year early.  I don’t think there is any way these guys keep their jobs if Zach and/or the Defense look this bad next year.  Logically, I don’t think they will.  But if they do, look out. 

[Prodigal Syndicate]

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Serious question. 
you stated guys are coming through untouched - abs you imagine that’s on Wilson.  
Was that a serious statement or Sarcasm?

A QB should be able to understand where the pressure is going to come from and act accordingly. Wilson doesn't.

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, Barton said:

Wilson definitely makes the Oline look worse. If you notice, when the sack is his fault, the Olineman just kind of look at him while he's on the ground and dont walk over to him to offer a hand. Pretty telling. Sometimes they even turn their back alittle towards him while he's getting sacked/on the ground. 

Yeah, pretty much hasnt happened here or on any other team Ive ever watched 

You also have no idea who's to blame for sacks but just had to tell us its on ZW without actually knowing.

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, The Crusher said:

It seems the concept  that an unsure QB who holds the ball too long, struggles seeing the field and moves backwards in the pocket just may contribute to the sacks. The lineman block expecting the QB to step up. If he moves backwards it changes the angle and leads to sacks. 

Or the thought process that brings up the 2 sacks Flacco gave up and then the games where Wilson wasnt sacked at all doesnt actually jive up.

 

[T0mShane]

3 hours ago, Drums said:

I wonder how Bears fans are feeling. The ones I talk to so badly want Nagy out of there. 

Nagy starting Foles this weekend, which is the absolute last we’ll see of him as a head coach in the NFL

[Barton]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Yeah, pretty much hasnt happened here or on any other team Ive ever watched 

You also have no idea who's to blame for sacks but just had to tell us its on ZW without actually knowing.

You ok?

[JohnnyLV]

6 hours ago, AFJF said:

I get annoyed when fans critique QB technique like they are experts but to an untrained eye his drops to my eye seem sloppy and slow way too often. Not like LaFleur calls 2 and 3 step drops either though.

[FidelioJet]

2 hours ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

A QB should be able to understand where the pressure is going to come from and act accordingly. Wilson doesn't.

This is sheer and utter nonsense. 

When a free rusher comes through due to a missed assigned it's not the QB's responsibility to know who missed their assignment. These aren't screen passes or roll outs where they are allowing a blitzer through.

These are flat out F-ups by the OL - that is NOT on the QB.  

Even saying it out loud and being serious about it is absurd on its face.  

For whatever reason much of this fan base, decided long before he took the field that they just didn't like him.  It's fine, just strange how a fan base can be so happy to see their QB fail, even to the point of making sh*t up like somehow when a free rusher comes through - it's his fault.

[Prodigal Syndicate]

11 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

This is sheer and utter nonsense. 

When a free rusher comes through due to a missed assigned it's not the QB's responsibility to know who missed their assignment. These aren't screen passes or roll outs where they are allowing a blitzer through.

These are flat out F-ups by the OL - that is NOT on the QB.  

Even saying it out loud and being serious about it is absurd on its face.  

For whatever reason much of this fan base, decided long before he took the field that they just didn't like him.  It's fine, just strange how a fan base can be so happy to see their QB fail, even to the point of making sh*t up like somehow when a free rusher comes through - it's his fault.

Then why isnt it happening constantly to the other QBs on the roster? Why is it mostly just Wilson? Coincidence?

The sack totals speak for themselves.

 

[Bowles Movement]

7 hours ago, JiFapono said:

Interesting, they gave up, what, 2?  With Flacco in there? 

Are you comparing Offensive lines or QBs?  

 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Barton said:

You ok?

I'm not the one hallucinating 

[FidelioJet]

17 minutes ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

Then why isnt it happening constantly to the other QBs on the roster? Why is it mostly just Wilson? Coincidence?

The sack totals speak for themselves.

 

Oh. I keep forgetting about those four magical starts by the back-up QBs.  Truly impressive how those performances seem to get better every week. 

[Prodigal Syndicate]

7 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Oh. I keep forgetting about those four magical starts by the back-up QBs.  Truly impressive how those performances seem to get better every week. 

Why did the offensive line suddenly look better? Can you explain it?

Wilson 34 sacks in 9 games 

Rest of QBs 8 sacks in 5 games.

 

You're quickly approaching nico levels with your defense of Wilson.

[slimjasi]

6 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Zach Wilson, who is terrific, was sacked 11 times in twelve games last year at BYU. He has zero instincts in the pocket and lacks the athleticism to get out of the pocket. Add to it he has the body mass of a pipe cleaner, so when he’s touched he goes down like he was shot by multiple snipers at the same time. Terrific player in a tragic spot playing with coaches who are going to get him killed.

lacks the athleticism to be able to get out of the pocket? 
 

strong disagreement on that one. Probably the best thing he does is scramble around pressure. 
 

his issue is he holds the ball too long against the blitz st times and he tries to extend too many plays.  Some of the plays where he runs around and tries to avoid pressure should be quick check downs instead 

 

[Prodigal Syndicate]

7 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

lacks the athleticism to be able to get out of the pocket? 
 

strong disagreement on that one. Probably the best thing he does is scramble around pressure. 
 

his issue is he holds the ball too long against the blitz st times and he tries to extend too many plays.  Some of the plays where he runs around and tries to avoid pressure should be quick check downs instead 

 

He looks like a less consistent, less promising Geno Smith so far.

[doitny]

9 hours ago, Drums said:

I wonder how Bears fans are feeling. The ones I talk to so badly want Nagy out of there. 

and thats pretty sad when you think this guy had a 500 % win percent in each year until now. been to the playoffs in 2 out of 4 years and currently is 32-30. 

in this league they want you to win 10 games a year. and he gets no break for having Daulton and then breaking in a rookie QB. 

[JustInFudge]

 

21 hours ago, rtnelson said:

The thing about the 6 videos just posted on the sacks is it that it doesn't really tell the full story.

We just had a 42 minute video where an unbiased very knowledgeable guy went on to explain how several of those that look bad had no options to throw to.  Either through play design or lack of talent in our receivers getting open there's a lot more going on here than watching a video showing only the pocket.

This is not to say this absolves Zach of all the blame, of course you can point to some that are his fault.  But to attempt to compare the product on the field against what we had previously in the season is a bit silly.  I would not expect any QB to come out and look great under the circumstances, much less a rookie facing a very tough defense for the first time in his career.

Yet we are about to enter in to a game where a ridiculous amount of guys are missing, and when Zach doesn't look perfect I'm sure guys will throw their hands up and officially label him a bust.

The reason those videos are a pointless example of anything is because it doesnt show, anything.

In the breakdown you're referring to, O'Sullivan shows on the first example, that sack was clearly on Zach.  He had a wide-open screen, he didnt throw from some reason, tucked in and just took a silly sack instead.

As mentioned earlier, there is enough blame to go around for everyone but those "examples" show nothing.

[JustInFudge]

16 hours ago, Bowles Movement said:

Are you comparing Offensive lines or QBs?  

 

I'm comparing the Jets from one game to another vs. the same team.

[Bowles Movement]

29 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

I'm comparing the Jets from one game to another vs. the same team.

The Jets played the Pats twice with different scores- what do you make of that?

[Warfish]

23 hours ago, varjet said:

Zach had limited receiving options in the Dolphins game, and even if he did, as said above, he was facing two of the best CBs in the NFL.  His first priority is to not throw interceptions, and he has gotten much better at that.  So as he learns he takes sacks rather than throw up risky balls or intentional groundings. 

Throwing it away/out of bounds is still an option, isn’t it. It’s only intentional grounding if you do it wrong/badly.

QB’s need that clock in their heads to succeed at this level. 1,2,3…ok, scramble, run or throw it away.

I continue to think the core problem is that Zach is poor at seeing/reading the field. 

[JustInFudge]

31 minutes ago, Bowles Movement said:

The Jets played the Pats twice with different scores- what do you make of that?

That the Jets played the Pats twice and had different scores at the end of each game.

[Lith]

23 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Zach* gives them little to no chance on plays that break down, and the coaches have forced him into this low-risk, no-fight mode of play normally reserved for your QB3 Garrett Gilbert types.

This is the piece I don't get that has not been talked about much.  I am no Zach apologist.  He has been bad and I am very down on his prospects to ever be anything better than a low-level starter.  But early in the season, he threw downfield.  We got 2 or 3 big plays against Tennessee and won a game -- we wouldn't have won that game without the big plays to Davis for a TD and Cole to set a FG, and a 40+ yard DPI to set up another TD  But the deep shots seem to have disappeared from the offnese.  

Since returning from injury, it has all been short safe stuff.  Its like they are trying to turn him into what Mike White was against Cincy.  I think he took one shot against Miami to Mims, and missed him by about 5 yards.  He has to play better from the pocket, but some of his best moments early in the season were deep shots, either within the structure of the play, or when he creaeted on his own.  Seems like he has been neutered by the staff.

 

[cat999]

It's very hard to assess blame for sacks just from watching the games live or from these isolated clips.  There are however a number of analysts out there who break down Jets film to an excruciating level of detail (like the guy who did the 42 minute video that has been referenced in this thread).  One of these, Michael Narnia, does a regular breakdown of every Zach Wilson throw and IMO offers a very balanced critique.  Regarding the sacks in the Dolphins game:

 

'This was the worst job the Jets have done of supporting a quarterback this year, and it is not even remotely close.

Of the six sacks Wilson took, I thought he had almost zero chance of avoiding five of them. On one, Wilson should have handed the ball off on an RPO (run-pass option), but he kept it and had no passing option, so he scrambled and took a mere one-yard loss. That was the only one on him.

Left tackle Conor McDermott and running back Michael Carter were particularly terrible in protection. One or both contributed to four of the six sacks.'

 

[T0mShane]

2 hours ago, Lith said:

This is the piece I don't get that has not been talked about much.  I am no Zach apologist.  He has been bad and I am very down on his prospects to ever be anything better than a low-level starter.  But early in the season, he threw downfield.  We got 2 or 3 big plays against Tennessee and won a game -- we wouldn't have won that game without the big plays to Davis for a TD and Cole to set a FG, and a 40+ yard DPI to set up another TD  But the deep shots seem to have disappeared from the offnese.  

Since returning from injury, it has all been short safe stuff.  Its like they are trying to turn him into what Mike White was against Cincy.  I think he took one shot against Miami to Mims, and missed him by about 5 yards.  He has to play better from the pocket, but some of his best moments early in the season were deep shots, either within the structure of the play, or when he creaeted on his own.  Seems like he has been neutered by the staff.

 

It makes me very nervous that they didn’t have a coherent plan for his development and are making it up as they go, which is very Jetsy

[FidelioJet]

3 hours ago, Lith said:

This is the piece I don't get that has not been talked about much.  I am no Zach apologist.  He has been bad and I am very down on his prospects to ever be anything better than a low-level starter.  But early in the season, he threw downfield.  We got 2 or 3 big plays against Tennessee and won a game -- we wouldn't have won that game without the big plays to Davis for a TD and Cole to set a FG, and a 40+ yard DPI to set up another TD  But the deep shots seem to have disappeared from the offnese.  

Since returning from injury, it has all been short safe stuff.  Its like they are trying to turn him into what Mike White was against Cincy.  I think he took one shot against Miami to Mims, and missed him by about 5 yards.  He has to play better from the pocket, but some of his best moments early in the season were deep shots, either within the structure of the play, or when he creaeted on his own.  Seems like he has been neutered by the staff.

 

I think part of it is the situation they're in right now.

I think you need to look to the Eagles game to get a better grasp of what they want to do.   A lot of short, but he took some nice shot and made some quality completions to Moore downfield.  

Now Moore and Davis out,  no one is winning match ups - far too often no one was open and I think Zach is playing safe - in fact, no doubt about it, he's not forcing anything (which is good, smart football - something Sam could never get) 

He's playing smart - sometimes to a fault for sure, probably holding a ball a bit too long waiting for someone to get open.  Would rather that than force a ball to someone not open and throw in INT....but he's also not seeing the field as well I would like - a little slow to 2nd and 3rd reads.

Just a a tough situation for this team in general - A still learning and struggling young QB, banged up OL, 4th string WR's, awful TE's...

Point is, I'm not really sure you can blame the coaches for what they're doing here - feels like they're trying to ride out the remaining gamers - without getting anyone killed or ZW throwing games away.  Play safe, smart football, minimize mistakes...but in doing so, not taking too many chances.

Really, it's tough to judge anyone right now - coaches included.