Snell41 Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 For perspective: Josh Allen, 2018 QBR: 67.9 Zach Wilson, 2021 QBR: 67.9 Mac Jones, 2021 QBR: 90.2 Jones has the advantage of playing for the best NFL head coach in the history of the game, after playing for a guy with pretty much the same status among college teams during his college career. He's also playing with one of the most experienced and successful offensive coordinators in the game. There was every reason to believe he'd be maximized early on. Josh Allen has the physical tools to be elite, and his experience and coaching staff has allowed him to do just that. Zach Wilson is in the same situation Josh Allen was a few years ago, but we don't yet know (and won't know) if both he and the coaching staff are capable of growing his performance to elite levels. If the Jets get some more o-line help and a true #1 receiver, they have all the pieces needed to not hold Wilson back, assuming the coaching staff does it's job. I would argue the 2022 draft is the most important one for the Jets since 2018. So in other words arguably the greatest college coach and NFL coach of all time both chose Mac Jones to be their QB. Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 7 minutes ago, GangGreened said: Threads like this is why Jets fans have the reputation they do. It’s embarrassing Lol a "Jet fan" calling other Jet fans "clowns". For dunking on a hated rivals QB stinking up a game (after listening to a bunch of these "Jet fans" absolutely slurping him a few weeks ago). But dunking on our OWN QB, perfectly fine. Not clownish. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 20 minutes ago, slats said: I agree, although I think he’s Chad pre-Raiders playoff game. That was the real beginning of the end for Pennington, pre- injury. Raiders had him figured out. If Mac Jones can’t materially improve his arm strength over the next year or two, he could be in for a similar fate. Seems like that’s already recently started happening. Payton Mannings second Super Bowl win came when he had an arm that made Pennington's pre injury arm look like a Howitzer. Smart QB's with the right pieces around them don't get figured out. Marino was the greatest QB I ever saw and he couldn't get it done in big games by himself. Elway with a huge arm was figured out until he was practical done athletically and had the other pieces around him. Ultimately it's a team game. The QB is a huge piece. Arm strength is one of the least important traits of winning QB's. Montana had a pop gun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 On 12/27/2021 at 9:15 AM, Biggs said: Zach likely would not have won the job in TC against a veteran QB. He would likely be on the bench for half the season on the Pats. If you wanted upside the QB to take with the highest ceiling and lowest draft capital risk was Davis Mills. He's much better than Zach and Lawrence right now and plays for a terrible team. None of the draftees would beat out a decent vet. It’s about developing a QB, not who would win more games in year one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetroitRed Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 16 minutes ago, Warfish said: Certainly a possibility, aye. Limited arm strength (or pass velocity) is a big liability against the inhuman athleticism of NFL DB's, no question. With that said, I'd also expect Jones to improve in other areas (like everyone here says Wilson will), including his timing, decision making, audibling, reading Pro D's, etc. Improvement in those other areas will help offset the league from just teeing off on him due to limited arm strength to some degree. Only time will tell. His likely ROTY first season is one he and the Pats can build on. Jamar Chase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 minute ago, DetroitRed said: Jamar Chase? Jaylen Waddle? (I presume we're just naming possible ROTY's now?) Ok, remove "likely" and replace with "possible" if that makes you happier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 5 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: None of the draftees would beat out a decent vet. It’s about developing a QB, not who would win more games in year one Mac Jones won out against a starting NFL vet QB. It was a competition. He won it and the vet was cut. Mac Jones was not handed the starting job in New England. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Biggs said: Payton Mannings second Super Bowl win came when he had an arm that made Pennington's pre injury arm look like a Howitzer. Smart QB's with the right pieces around them don't get figured out. Marino was the greatest QB I ever saw and he couldn't get it done in big games by himself. Elway with a huge arm was figured out until he was practical done athletically and had the other pieces around him. Ultimately it's a team game. The QB is a huge piece. Arm strength is one of the least important traits of winning QB's. Montana had a pop gun. I think that's an outdated theory given how the game has changed. Look at the top QBs today--Mahomes, Rogers, Allen, young guns like Herbert and Murray-all with massive arms. Even Brady, Wilson, Stafford, Dak et al have strong arms. I don't think the weak armed smart QB is going to take a team on his back and win throughout the playoffs and the SB--not with defenses today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetroitRed Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Warfish said: Jaylen Waddle? (I presume we're just naming possible ROTY's now?) Ok, remove "likely" and replace with "possible" if that makes you happier. I think there are clear front runners, and Jones is clesrly not going to win the award. Just my opinion. We will see if my prediction is correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 minute ago, DetroitRed said: I think there are clear front runners, and Jones is clesrly not going to win the award. Just my opinion. We will see if my prediction is correct I think you're probably right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetroitRed Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 10 minutes ago, Biggs said: Payton Mannings second Super Bowl win came when he had an arm that made Pennington's pre injury arm look like a Howitzer. Smart QB's with the right pieces around them don't get figured out. Marino was the greatest QB I ever saw and he couldn't get it done in big games by himself. Elway with a huge arm was figured out until he was practical done athletically and had the other pieces around him. Ultimately it's a team game. The QB is a huge piece. Arm strength is one of the least important traits of winning QB's. Montana had a pop gun. True. But that level if play takes a decade to learn and most will never sniff it. Also, he would always, at that stage, get exposed by a high level defense that a Brady could overcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 16 minutes ago, Peace Frog said: I think that's an outdated theory given how the game has changed. Look at the top QBs today--Mahomes, Rogers, Allen, young guns like Herbert and Murray-all with massive arms. Even Brady, Wilson, Stafford, Dak et al have strong arms. I don't think the weak armed smart QB is going to take a team on his back and win throughout the playoffs and the SB--not with defenses today. In many ways today's game favors accuracy more than arm stregth. There are more domes and good weather games today than at any time in NFL history. That's likely to continue as teams like Buffalo and even New England consider new builds with domes. The fast tracks and lack of weather put a premium on accuracy and yards after catch. It's less important today not more important. Mayfield has a stronger arm than Brady. NFL QB's today are making hey on under throws that result in PI and dropping passes in over the top. Mahomes and Allen are freaks and they are surrounded by great talent. The ability to see the play and throw guys open is way more important than arm strength. There is a given amount of arm strength on every NFL QB. Drew Brees set records in todays game with a pop gun arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 13 minutes ago, Biggs said: Payton Mannings second Super Bowl win came when he had an arm that made Pennington's pre injury arm look like a Howitzer. Smart QB's with the right pieces around them don't get figured out. Marino was the greatest QB I ever saw and he couldn't get it done in big games by himself. Elway with a huge arm was figured out until he was practical done athletically and had the other pieces around him. Ultimately it's a team game. The QB is a huge piece. Arm strength is one of the least important traits of winning QB's. Montana had a pop gun. Lol, no. Peyton was a shell of himself at the end, but still had more arm juice than Pennington ever had. The supposed weakness of Joe Montana’s arm gets way overstated, too. I agree that the mental aspect of the game is most important for QBs, but let’s not forget that these guys are professional athletes. Their actual physical abilities matter. Rodgers and Mahomes are very smart QBs, but it’s their unique arm talent that moves the needle towards greatness. Ultimately it’s absolutely a team game. Mac Jones managed to be the rookie QB on the best team. Stuff like that matters probably more than anything else. Archie Manning never had a winning season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 17 minutes ago, Biggs said: Mac Jones won out against a starting NFL vet QB. It was a competition. He won it and the vet was cut. Mac Jones was not handed the starting job in New England. A vet who pissed BB off by not getting vaxed and getting COVID a 2nd time and sucking at QB. Mac Jones was handed the job 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 4 minutes ago, slats said: Lol, no. Peyton was a shell of himself at the end, but still had more arm juice than Pennington ever had. The supposed weakness of Joe Montana’s arm gets way overstated, too. I agree that the mental aspect of the game is most important for QBs, but let’s not forget that these guys are professional athletes. Their actual physical abilities matter. Rodgers and Mahomes are very smart QBs, but it’s their unique arm talent that moves the needle towards greatness. Ultimately it’s absolutely a team game. Mac Jones managed to be the rookie QB on the best team. Stuff like that matters probably more than anything else. Archie Manning never had a winning season. Payton's arm was completely shot. He was benched for an outright scrub. Montana threw a catchable ball on time. He had a relatively weak arm compared to the other QB's of his era. The Pats are not the best team. Rodgers and Mahomes play on much better over all teams, it's not close. The Offensive talent on both teams, WR, OL, is simply better. Your cred is going into the toilet. 3 thumbs down on this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Biggs said: In many ways today's game favors accuracy more than arm stregth. There are more domes and good weather games today than at any time in NFL history. That's likely to continue. The fast tracks and lack of weather put a premium on accuracy and yards after catch. It's less important today not more important. Mayfield has a stronger arm than Brady. NFL QB's today are making hey on under throws that result in PI and dropping passes in over the top. Mahomes and Allen are freaks and they are surrounded by great talent. The ability to see the play and throw guys open is way more important than arm strength. There is a given amount of arm strength on every NFL QB. Drew Brees set records in todays game with a pop gun arm. I'm not saying stonger arm=better--the Mayfield Brady comparison is the perfect example. But his complete lack of arm strength regardless of accuracy is the issue--especially for a guy playing in the north east against 2 other teams in the NE. That's 10-11 games a year (likely 5-6-7 of them in inclement weather) in the NE. If Mac were playing in the south or a dome, he might be able to succeed but ultimately I don't think he has the arm to do so. That 3 pass game said a lot of what they think he is capable of. Following it up with that effort this past weekend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Biggs said: The Pats are not the best team. Rodgers and Mahomes play on much better over all teams, it's not close. *rookie QB Agree to disagree on the rest. Montana could make just about every throw before he went to the Chiefs. This idea that he was some sort of noodle arm is silly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: A vet who pissed BB off by not getting vaxed and getting COVID a 2nd time and sucking at QB. Mac Jones was handed the job He wasn't handed the job. You're making stuff up to make a point about Zac that simply irrelevant and doesn't matter. He had a great camp where he showed he could run the O and deliver accurate passes. He was calm in the pocket and knows how to use the pocket. The Pats had no intention of starting him if he couldn't run their O competently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 26 minutes ago, Biggs said: Mac Jones won out against a starting NFL vet QB. It was a competition. He won it and the vet was cut. Mac Jones was not handed the starting job in New England. Did he really win out? Was it really a competition? We don't follow the Pats in preseason like we follow the Jets but there were stories speculating that it more had to do with Cam rather than Mac "beating him out". Cam adamantly didn't think so, (but he's obviously biased). I never saw Cam and Belli as someting that would last. I think Belli was looking for a reason to move on and Mac being "prepared" and "taking care of the football" were good enough reasons. We'll never know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Biggs said: He wasn't handed the job. You're making stuff up to make a point about Zac that simply irrelevant and doesn't matter. He had a great camp where he showed he could run the O and deliver accurate passes. He was calm in the pocket and knows how to use the pocket. The Pats had no intention of starting him if he couldn't run their O competently. Ok, I just made it up. And I made up nothing to make a point about Zach. The Pats already knew that Cam wasn’t able to run the offense well enough and that they could win with a capable game manager like Jones. If they had a more capable vet Kones wasn’t playing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 31 minutes ago, slats said: *rookie QB Agree to disagree on the rest. Montana could make just about every throw before he went to the Chiefs. This idea that he was some sort of noodle arm is silly. Go back and watch tape of Montana. He looked like he was having a catch in the park. He threw a catchable ball without a lot of velocity. He rarely threw the ball more than 40 yards. He was deadly accurate and he had anticipation that was ridiculous. He was in a new O that was based on completely different concepts. He went in the third round. He had below average arm talent for the NFL when he was drafted. Montana, based on arm strength would be at the bottom of the backup QB's in the NFL. He was deadly accurate on 25 yard and under throws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 38 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: Ok, I just made it up. And I made up nothing to make a point about Zach. The Pats already knew that Cam wasn’t able to run the offense well enough and that they could win with a capable game manager like Jones. If they had a more capable vet Kones wasn’t playing So you're saying he won the job in training camp because he was able to run their O better than anyone else on the roster including a former NFL MVP SB QB. He wasn't handed the job. If he couldn't run the O he would have sat. He could and has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crusher Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 55 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: A vet who pissed BB off by not getting vaxed and getting COVID a 2nd time and sucking at QB. Mac Jones was handed the job Oh yeah, that. Haha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Biggs said: So you're saying he won the job in training camp because he was able to run their O better than anyone else on the roster including a former NFL MVP SB QB. He wasn't handed the job. If he couldn't run the O he would have sat. He could and has. I’m saying Cam sucked so much last season, was just as bad in camp and pissed the HC off by not being vaxed after that was the excuse for the bad games a year ago. Stop calling Cam the ex MVP as I’d that had any reverence to the Cam that was on the pats. He’s a shell of himself. I said BB thought Mac could game manage his way with the talent on the team. Call it what you want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJoTownsell1 Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 7 minutes ago, Biggs said: So you're saying he won the job in training camp because he was able to run their O better than anyone else on the roster including a former NFL MVP SB QB. He wasn't handed the job. If he couldn't run the O he would have sat. He could and has. He won the job because his competition was Cam, the same guy that the panthers have chosen to bench in favor of Darnold. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 59 minutes ago, Biggs said: Payton's arm was completely shot. He was benched for an outright scrub. Montana threw a catchable ball on time. He had a relatively weak arm compared to the other QB's of his era. The Pats are not the best team. Rodgers and Mahomes play on much better over all teams, it's not close. The Offensive talent on both teams, WR, OL, is simply better. Your cred is going into the toilet. 3 thumbs down on this post. Mac isn’t on the best team in the NFL, don’t think that’s what Slats was saying, think he was saying on the best team of the rookie QBs. That said the Pats were a 12 win division winner who lost their starting QB and 10 players who opted out. They got the opt outs back, spent on FAs and are one of the top teams. Montana had more than enough arm to play QB in the NFL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggin94it Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 On 12/26/2021 at 8:42 PM, Integrity28 said: Yup, he’s having a bad month. Kid still has the makeup of a starting QB. Let the Pyrrhic victory laps ensue. The concern with Jones was always ceiling and arm strength; spitting the bit in December says those weren't overblown. Has nothing to do with whether Zach was a good pick at 2, but Jones would've been a disastrous pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 48 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: If they had a more capable vet Kones wasn’t playing Not sure I see the point. Are you arguing that Jones was unworthy to start? Pats dumped their Vet and chose to go with Jones, and the results speak for themselves. Cam was and is trash at this point, so it's hardly an unexpected surprise. The Jets effectively did the same thing, going as far as to not even have a Vet, so that Wilson could start. If we had a "more capable Vet", Wilson isn't playing either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 56 minutes ago, Peace Frog said: Did he really win out? Was it really a competition? We don't follow the Pats in preseason like we follow the Jets but there were stories speculating that it more had to do with Cam rather than Mac "beating him out". Cam adamantly didn't think so, (but he's obviously biased). I never saw Cam and Belli as someting that would last. I think Belli was looking for a reason to move on and Mac being "prepared" and "taking care of the football" were good enough reasons. We'll never know. Unfortunately I live in New England and get their radio and TV feeds. He absolutely wasn't handed the job and won it outright. The media up here were at Pats camp day 1. The defensive players on the Pats were blown away by him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: Mac isn’t on the best team in the NFL, don’t think that’s what Slats was saying, think he was saying on the best team of the rookie QBs. That said the Pats were a 12 win division winner who lost their starting QB and 10 players who opted out. They got the opt outs back, spent on FAs and are one of the top teams. Montana had more than enough arm to play QB in the NFL So did Pennington. Montana still had below average arm strength in his era. He was deadly accurate and he had anticipation. He played on an O that used timing to create yards after catch. More than enough arm strength because of the O he played in and his accuracy. Well below average NFL arm strength just like Drew Brees. Pop guns compared to their peers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FootballLove Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 wasn't too long ago it was the Jets with a sucky rookie QB playing on a good, run first team. Ended up 15 mins from the SB, twice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 jones has done exactly what the Pats wanted- he does not have to carry the team -their defense and running game and good coaching has enabled him to succeed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: Mac isn’t on the best team in the NFL, don’t think that’s what Slats was saying, think he was saying on the best team of the rookie QBs. That said the Pats were a 12 win division winner who lost their starting QB and 10 players who opted out. They got the opt outs back, spent on FAs and are one of the top teams. Montana had more than enough arm to play QB in the NFL Slats, despite his low cred, is one of the more capable people on this board of articulating his position without guessing or help. I would bet if you go back and read JN prior to the season they were saying BB without Brady sucks. There going after FA's was desperation and wouldn't work. I though Mac Jones was a third round QB. The kid lifted the team. The fact is their O would suck with either Cam, Hoyer or Stidman. Both Hoyer and Stidman know the O. Stidman was drafted to start at some point. Mac is a good NFL QB with enough arm strength. They drafted him, gave him reps and he excelled at running their O. He was solid from day 1. He's solid now. The kid knows how to read a D. His footwork is solid. He knows how to climb the pocket. He has a quick release. He has a good arm when he's balanced. Not great good enough with his accuracy. When he gets knocked off his base and has to back up he's toast. That's a small part of the game unless you're Mahomes or Allen. The Pats lost last week to a team with one of the best rosters in the NFL with an elite veteran QB playing out of his mind. The BIlls D has the No. 1 ranked D against the pass in the NFL. The Pats fell behind, Allen had a monster second half and the Pats don't have the weapons in the passing game to come back against that. The argument around here seems to be if a rookie QB on the Pats can't bring his team back against a top D he's arm sucks. It's like saying Pennington was figured out by the Raiders. The Raiders were a much better team and they were at home in the playoffs. You fall behind and can't run the ball and you don't have the weapons to attack a defense that is defending the pass and is good you get beat in the NFL. Pennington after surgery took a crappy Jets team to the playoffs when he could barely throw the ball down the field outside the hash marks. He took an okay Miami team to the playoffs with a post surgical arm. Neither one of those teams were that good. It's more than the QB. But having a smart, accurate QB is way more important than a big arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Warfish said: Not sure I see the point. Are you arguing that Jones was unworthy to start? Pats dumped their Vet and chose to go with Jones, and the results speak for themselves. Cam was and is trash at this point, so it's hardly an unexpected surprise. The Jets effectively did the same thing, going as far as to not even have a Vet, so that Wilson could start. If we had a "more capable Vet", Wilson isn't playing either. I’m dYing if there was a better vet than Cam on the Pats he wouldn’t have started. I think we agree Cam is a shot QB, with a shaky personality. Not sure what the Jets would have done with a capable vet. Probably start and play 5 or 6 games. But we’re in a different place than the Pats. We’re trying to build a team with young players and trying to have their development and ZWs development to coincide and not needing to win this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Biggs said: So did Pennington. Montana still had below average arm strength in his era. He was deadly accurate and he had anticipation. He played on an O that used timing to create yards after catch. More than enough arm strength because of the O he played in and his accuracy. Well below average NFL arm strength just like Drew Brees. Pop guns compared to their peers. Agree right up to Brees. Montana had a lot better arm than Brees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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