All Zach Wilson throws vs Jax

[Sperm Edwards]

38 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I think it's wishful thinking to believe a back-up QB will do anything but keep the team mediocre at best.  Is that the goal we're trying to achieve? Is that what the fans want? The local media? The Johnsons?

While I know it's tough to accept, the "New York Zachwilsons"  for better or worse is mostly the reality.  His progress into a FQB is the single most important thing for this franchise and there isn't a close second..

This regime will fail or succeed based on his progress over the next 2-3 years.  If he fails, all the Teddy Bridgewaters and Gardner Minshews of the world aren't going to make this team a legitimate contender.  

Lastly, I completely disagree, winning 8 games with a Ryan Fitzpatrick while the #2 pick overall is sitting on the bench isn't helping JD or RS save their jobs.

The point is there are other players and coaches to evaluate, not the checkers player mentality/reply of if we aren’t winning the super bowl then we may as well lose 16 games. 

Evaluating WRs, for example, with a QB who isn’t playing well enough for them to flourish, is at an extreme handicap. This can then lead to false hope in someone who sucks (blaming just the QB for his poor numbers, when they’d be poor with better QBs as well) or over-drafting a well-settled position instead of one that’d actually improve the team. 

You couldn’t be more wrong about winning 8 games with a Fitzpatrick-type saving the GM and HC’s jobs. That’s exactly what would happen, since it’d mean this is not such a bad team with a good QB (which Fitz isn’t anyway).

There is no mandate from the owner like, “OK draft Wilson but if you don’t go 1 for 1 drafting QBs, you’re fired.” It’s silly that anyone thinks that.

[FidelioJet]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The point is there are other players and coaches to evaluate, not the checkers player mentality/reply of if we aren’t winning the super bowl then we may as well lose 16 games. 

Evaluating WRs, for example, with a QB who isn’t playing well enough for them to flourish, is at an extreme handicap. This can then lead to false hope in someone who sucks (blaming just the QB for his poor numbers, when they’d be poor with better QBs as well) or over-drafting a well-settled position instead of one that’d actually improve the team. 

You couldn’t be more wrong about winning 8 games with a Fitzpatrick-type saving the GM and HC’s jobs. That’s exactly what would happen, since it’d mean this is not such a bad team with a good QB (which Fitz isn’t anyway).

There is no mandate from the owner like, “OK draft Wilson but if you don’t go 1 for 1 drafting QBs, you’re fired.” It’s silly that anyone thinks that.

Disagree.  If Wilson fails Joe Douglas doesn't get to draft the next Jets QB.  I think it's naive to see that any other way.

Do all the evaluating you want - but do the math first.  Bring in your 8 win vet QB - then you need to go out a draft a new QB which will then take 2 years to build up - by that time all your promising young guys you've just evaluated with Gardner Minschew are now getting ready for their second contracts - and the cycle starts over.

It's Wilson or bust for these guys and they know it....

[Sperm Edwards]

14 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Disagree.  If Wilson fails Joe Douglas doesn't get to draft the next Jets QB.  I think it's naive to see that any other way.

Do all the evaluating you want - but do the math first.  Bring in your 8 win vet QB - then you need to go out a draft a new QB which will then take 2 years to build up - by that time all your promising young guys you've just evaluated with Gardner Minschew are now getting ready for their second contracts - and the cycle starts over.

It's Wilson or bust for these guys and they know it....

I don’t know where you get these ideas, but if he brings in Teddy Bridgewater and with him taking over for Wilson the Jets turn around a 0-6 start into an 8-3 finish, yes it’s foolish to think Douglas is getting fired and won’t get to draft another QB.

[Joe W. Namath]

Zach Wilson is going to be a star so this is a moot point.  But even if he isnt, Joe and Robert are here for a very long time.    If you cant see how special these 2 are, then u r blind.

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Zach Wilson is going to be a star so this is a moot point.  But even if he isnt, Joe and Robert are here for a very long time.    If you cant see how special these 2 are, then u r blind.

Special or not, if ZW fails you can put a fork in them.

[CanadaSteve]

On 12/26/2021 at 8:15 PM, Butterfield said:

I saw nothing inspiring today.  More eh.  

Then I guess you weren't watching.  I am one who has lost quite a bit of faith in the kid, and I will admit the last two weeks he's looked good.

Many say running doesn't matter.  It should.  He could just as easily be trying to force things, but is choosing what is there, and that is sometimes running the ball himself.  That is kinda the textbook definition of improvement. 

[CanadaSteve]

39 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Disagree.  If Wilson fails Joe Douglas doesn't get to draft the next Jets QB.  I think it's naive to see that any other way.

Do all the evaluating you want - but do the math first.  Bring in your 8 win vet QB - then you need to go out a draft a new QB which will then take 2 years to build up - by that time all your promising young guys you've just evaluated with Gardner Minschew are now getting ready for their second contracts - and the cycle starts over.

It's Wilson or bust for these guys and they know it....

Sorry dude, that just isn't true.  Well, lets put it this way: it MIGHT be true.  But it might play out a completely different way.  If JD builds a solid team, but we need to improve on Zach, I am sure he would get the chance.  If he builds the slop that Mac built AND can't get a QB, then yes, he will be gone. 

[FidelioJet]

15 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don’t know where you get these ideas, but if he brings in Teddy Bridgewater and with him taking over for Wilson the Jets turn around a 0-6 start into an 8-3 finish, yes it’s foolish to think Douglas is getting fired and won’t get to draft another QB.

Sure, if Teddy goes 8-3, after an 0-6 start - under those very unique and unlikely set uo circumstances he might keep his job another year - but they're rolling with Bridgewater as the guy and not using early draft capital on a QB... and if he keeps and 8-3 pace - they go to the playoffs and they're still not taking a QB

In the far more likely scenario where Bridgewater wins 8 games in his second year - then JD is fired and he doesn't get to pick another 1st round QB.

IMHO, the only scenario in which JD gets to draft another 1st round QB - is a divesting injury to ZW (And that's only if ZW looks good) or in 15 years when Wilson retires.

While it is only my opinion - that opinion is supported by statistical evidence (not always but often)  GM/HC tandems get one first round QB - then the team moves on...

You can think it's smart or not - just saying from how I've seen the league work.

[bla bla bla]

48 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The point is there are other players and coaches to evaluate, not the checkers player mentality/reply of if we aren’t winning the super bowl then we may as well lose 16 games. 

Evaluating WRs, for example, with a QB who isn’t playing well enough for them to flourish, is at an extreme handicap. This can then lead to false hope in someone who sucks (blaming just the QB for his poor numbers, when they’d be poor with better QBs as well) or over-drafting a well-settled position instead of one that’d actually improve the team. 

You couldn’t be more wrong about winning 8 games with a Fitzpatrick-type saving the GM and HC’s jobs. That’s exactly what would happen, since it’d mean this is not such a bad team with a good QB (which Fitz isn’t anyway).

There is no mandate from the owner like, “OK draft Wilson but if you don’t go 1 for 1 drafting QBs, you’re fired.” It’s silly that anyone thinks that.

I completely agree with this thought process. It's exactly why I was fine with Fitz and McCown. I don't necessarily feel the same way at this point in time unless it's strictly for back up purposes so they can grade the rest of the team in practice. I feel we have seen enough from the majority of the offense for me to feel confident saying TE, C/G, WR, and maybe another RB are the positions I'd look for.

IMO this up coming season will be the best any of our QBs have been set up since Mark over a decade ago.

[rtnelson]

12 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Special or not, if ZW fails you can put a fork in them.

I disagree.  If you build a good team, you can win with a bad to average QB.  You don't fire a group who have built a good team because they didn't hit on the QB draft pick.  You give them another shot to figure it out while you sign a stop gap measure to keep things running.

Having a GM and Coach that can consistently build and manage a playoff caliber team isn't something you just throw out.  So if that's what they are capable of doing, it really doesn't matter how ZW pans out, they will be here for a while.

[FidelioJet]

55 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Sorry dude, that just isn't true.  Well, lets put it this way: it MIGHT be true.  But it might play out a completely different way.  If JD builds a solid team, but we need to improve on Zach, I am sure he would get the chance.  If he builds the slop that Mac built AND can't get a QB, then yes, he will be gone. 

I agree, you’re right.    It’s a matter of degrees.  How solid does the team need to be for him to get that pick?

Thats probably the better question - for which I don’t have the answer.  But I would think pretty damn solid.  

[FidelioJet]

49 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

I disagree.  If you build a good team, you can win with a bad to average QB.  You don't fire a group who have built a good team because they didn't hit on the QB draft pick.  You give them another shot to figure it out while you sign a stop gap measure to keep things running.

Having a GM and Coach that can consistently build and manage a playoff caliber team isn't something you just throw out.  So if that's what they are capable of doing, it really doesn't matter how ZW pans out, they will be here for a while.

You can’t win with a bad to average QB.  Not in todays league.  

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Sure, if Teddy goes 8-3, after an 0-6 start - under those very unique and unlikely set uo circumstances he might keep his job another year - but they're rolling with Bridgewater as the guy and not using early draft capital on a QB... and if he keeps and 8-3 pace - they go to the playoffs and they're still not taking a QB

In the far more likely scenario where Bridgewater wins 8 games in his second year - then JD is fired and he doesn't get to pick another 1st round QB.

IMHO, the only scenario in which JD gets to draft another 1st round QB - is a divesting injury to ZW (And that's only if ZW looks good) or in 15 years when Wilson retires.

While it is only my opinion - that opinion is supported by statistical evidence (not always but often)  GM/HC tandems get one first round QB - then the team moves on...

You can think it's smart or not - just saying from how I've seen the league work.

Your statistical evidence is spotty at best because GMs don't statistically get 6 year contracts often. Yet Douglas isn't even halfway through his 6-year deal yet and only Idzik was the rare exception of Johnson firing a GM so early. This is an ownership group that gave Mike Maccagnan an outright extension after multiple losing seasons with terrible drafts and terrible veteran contracts. 

If they win 8 games with Bridgewater it means after benching Wilson, they had a winning record with Bridgewater. It does not mean Bridgewater is or was particularly good and the job is his next year; only that he wasn't as bad and the team was otherwise good enough to win most matchups with his game-management style. It certainly doesn't make him the automatic starter next year. 

Shift the wins/losses around a little however you like. If the Jets look like a legit, competitive team that's had a major turnaround from Wilson to Bridgewater, then the far more likely top order of business will be to just bring a better QB; not to clean house by firing everyone. That's ludicrous, and frankly it isn't Johnson's style at all.

[rtnelson]

18 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

You can’t win with a bad to average QB.  Not in todays league.  

You probably can't win a superbowl, but you can certainly win games, and a lot of them.  Just look at the Pats this season.  Mac Jones is at best performing at an average level.

[FidelioJet]

23 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

You probably can't win a superbowl, but you can certainly win games, and a lot of them.  Just look at the Pats this season.  Mac Jones is at best performing at an average level.

Maybe that’s why so many fans and I disagree.  I want to win Super Bowls. I want to build a team capable of winning Super Bowls. 
 

The old way of NY Jets football, build an defense, O is an afterthought, get a wild card every 3 or 4 years.  Win a playoff game it two a decade.  I get that can be appealing to what we’ve been through the past three years.  But I would rather dare for greatness.   
  

[FidelioJet]

46 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Your statistical evidence is spotty at best because GMs don't statistically get 6 year contracts often. Yet Douglas isn't even halfway through his 6-year deal yet and only Idzik was the rare exception of Johnson firing a GM so early. This is an ownership group that gave Mike Maccagnan an outright extension after multiple losing seasons with terrible drafts and terrible veteran contracts. 

If they win 8 games with Bridgewater it means after benching Wilson, they had a winning record with Bridgewater. It does not mean Bridgewater is or was particularly good and the job is his next year; only that he wasn't as bad and the team was otherwise good enough to win most matchups with his game-management style. It certainly doesn't make him the automatic starter next year. 

Shift the wins/losses around a little however you like. If the Jets look like a legit, competitive team that's had a major turnaround from Wilson to Bridgewater, then the far more likely top order of business will be to just bring a better QB; not to clean house by firing everyone. That's ludicrous, and frankly it isn't Johnson's style at all.

I think I missed explained.  
 

Yes, Mindschew going 8-3 after ZW’s 0-6 start would mean everyone is keeping their jobs.   Means Minshew would have played well  

BUT…..

The next year Gardner will be the incumbent.   They’re not drafting a QB because all y’all will be talking SB. They’ll be “Mindschew Mania” T-Shirts everywhere.  And he’ll demand a big payday.   
JD will almost certainly acquiesce (as that is Woody’s M.O. - public pressure is his ultimate guide). 
 

Then …

The inevitable will happen. Mindschew Mania will come crashing down to earth and the  Jets record will be 7-10 or the ilk.  

Lastly…

JD gets fired - new GM comes in - drafts Mindschew’s replacement.  
 

the circle continues…

[Joe W. Namath]

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Special or not, if ZW fails you can put a fork in them.

You can keep saying that but its just not true.  Many GMs get to draft multiple qbs.  Ryan Pace just did it.  The guy in AZ did it.  The Rams gm is on his 2nd qb after goff.

It actually happens alot.  

 

[Sperm Edwards]

12 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I think I missed explained.  
 

Yes, Mindschew going 8-3 after ZW’s 0-6 start would mean everyone is keeping their jobs.   Means Minshew would have played well  

BUT…..

The next year Gardner will be the incumbent.   They’re not drafting a QB because all y’all will be talking SB. They’ll be “Mindschew Mania” T-Shirts everywhere.  And he’ll demand a big payday.   
JD will almost certainly acquiesce (as that is Woody’s M.O. - public pressure is his ultimate guide). 
 

Then …

The inevitable will happen. Mindschew Mania will come crashing down to earth and the  Jets record will be 7-10 or the ilk.  

Lastly…

JD gets fired - new GM comes in - drafts Mindschew’s replacement.  
 

the circle continues…

Yeah, I agree with none of this. 

He keeps the job if he looks awesome and they win. If he's game-managing to weakly get by opponents, and they were ultimately 4 scores - including a couple defensive ones - away from that record flipping, no the incumbent QB doesn't automatically get his job and the team stay away from drafting another QB. 

Also Minschew is on the Eagles under contract for 2022, so it wouldn't be him. More likely among:

• Bridgewater, Mariota, Taylor, Brissett, Trubisky, and possibly (but not likely) Fitz.
• Depending how Wilson looks these last 2 games, also less likely but possibly there could also be a trade for Garoppolo, assuming SF is looking to dump his salary and get even a mid-rounder for their troubles if they can. 

[FidelioJet]

4 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

You can keep saying that but its just not true.  Many GMs get to draft multiple qbs.  Ryan Pace just did it.  The guy in AZ did it.  The Rams gm is on his 2nd qb after goff.

It actually happens alot.  

 

AZ got a new coach, Rams went to a SB.  
There are clearly circumstances in which he can pick the next QB.   I absolutely agree with that.  But it’s far more likely he doesn’t. 

[Joe W. Namath]

12 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

AZ got a new coach, Rams went to a SB.  
There are clearly circumstances in which he can pick the next QB.   I absolutely agree with that.  But it’s far more likely he doesn’t. 

Hes coming off the best draft in the entire nfl last year.  Hes got the youngest team/coaching staff in the league playing tough, competitive football down the stretch here.  Hes got a boatload of picks and is going to knock this draft out of the park as well.

Its time for every Jet fan to open their eyes and get on board w/ whats going on here.  We are about to enter the greatest stretch of football in team history.

Get on board now and avoid having to put ir tail btwn ur legs and begging for forgiveness by October of next year.

[FidelioJet]

12 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yeah, I agree with none of this. 

He keeps the job if he looks awesome and they win. If he's game-managing to weakly get by opponents, and they were ultimately 4 scores - including a couple defensive ones - away from that record flipping, no the incumbent QB doesn't automatically get his job and the team stay away from drafting another QB. 

Also Minschew is on the Eagles under contract for 2022, so it wouldn't be him. More likely among:

• Bridgewater, Mariota, Taylor, Brissett, Trubisky, and possibly (but not likely) Fitz.
• Depending how Wilson looks these last 2 games, also less likely but possibly there could also be a trade for Garoppolo, assuming SF is looking to dump his salary and get even a mid-rounder for their troubles if they can. 

First. Just using Mindschew as an example.   Could be Marriott Mania.  Doesn’t matter. 
If he goes 8-3 after an 0-6 start he’s not game managing his way there.  
In that case, no way he’s not coming back as the starter and they’ll be 12 win expectations.   Which isn’t going to happen.  
 

I’ll leave this alone after this, as we’re just going back and forth.  but the bottom line, IMO,  If Zach fails it’s FAR more likely JD and Saleh are gone before they get to choose another 1st round QB.   Yes.  It’s certainly possible they can, but a less likely scenario.  
 

 

[rtnelson]

16 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

AZ got a new coach, Rams went to a SB.  
There are clearly circumstances in which he can pick the next QB.   I absolutely agree with that.  But it’s far more likely he doesn’t. 

If JD builds a good team, he stays.  If ZW hits but the team stinks, he gets more time than if ZW fails and the team stinks.  Either way, if the team doesn't win games he's gone regardless of how good Wilson is keeping in mind good QB's can be on bad teams.

I for one think Wilson has a decent chance to hit, and so far I see the plan and culture actually succeeding in building a competent football team.  How high they can push it I'm not sure yet.  Next year should be much more interesting if nothing else.  Even with my always look on the bright side outlook, if we're not in the hunt in December next year, it's going to be difficult to stay on board.

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Hes coming off the best draft in the entire nfl last year.  Hes got the youngest team/coaching staff in the league playing tough, competitive football down the stretch here.  Hes got a boatload of picks and is going to knock this draft out of the park as well.

Its time for every Jet fan to open their eyes and get on board w/ whats going on here.  We are about to enter the greatest stretch of football in team history.

Get on board now and avoid having to put ir tail btwn ur legs and begging for forgiveness by October of next year.

For the record.  I’m on board. I’m happy with the progress. I like JD and Saleh.  I really like what I’m seeing from Zach.  I love their plan and believe they following through with it.  Very happy with the progress.    

None of that changes the reality that if Zach busts they’re almost certainly gone. 

[Sperm Edwards]

8 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

First. Just using Mindschew as an example.   Could be Marriott Mania.  Doesn’t matter. 
If he goes 8-3 after an 0-6 start he’s not game managing his way there.  
In that case, no way he’s not coming back as the starter and they’ll be 12 win expectations.   Which isn’t going to happen.  
 

I’ll leave this alone after this, as we’re just going back and forth.  but the bottom line, IMO,  If Zach fails it’s FAR more likely JD and Saleh are gone before they get to choose another 1st round QB.   Yes.  It’s certainly possible they can, but a less likely scenario.  
 

 

Marriott Mania?

Leave, lol.

[FidelioJet]

47 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Marriott Mania?

Leave, lol.

Spell check police?
 

or just the idea of Mariota Mania?

Which one made you decide to tell me to leave?

[Sperm Edwards]

19 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Spell check police?
 

or just the idea of Mariota Mania?

Which one made you decide to tell me to leave?

Arguing with me