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2022 Edge/Pass Rushers STATS for quick-glance comparison


Greenseed4
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7 hours ago, Greenseed4 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After watching this, I’ve changed my mind. He seems like a Carl Lawson protege in his preparation, and made me think about Clay Matthews’ college production.  (He totaled 5.5 sacks and 13.5 TFL in four years).

Clay Mathews then entered the league and went to four straight pro bowls with double-digit sacks, and 15-18 TFL in three of his first four years. 

The reason? Motor and motivation. Clay was 100% about football, and I see the same passion in Karlaftis, who is still coming into his own.  He is absolutely worthy of our first draft pick, and ironically, has a very similar build to John Abraham, our oft-cited last great pass rusher.  
 

just for funsies… 

College stats 
John Abraham (6’4, 263) 31 GS, 13 sacks, 27 TFL

George Karlaftis (6’4, 275) 26 GS, 14 sacks, 29 TFL

Abraham was 252 when he came out. Also ran 4.55. I don’t think they’re particularly similar.

The tools vs. production debate for pass rushers will always have arguments for both sides. None of toolsy guys you pointed out went into the top ten and there are certainly toolsy guys who haven’t worked out either. The risk/reward makes more sense later.

The other thing with Karlaftis is the short arms. He’s never going to be an ideal prospect physically even if he runs a 4.55 because of the short arms and he’ll always lack impressive production too. All those things into account he just seems like a guy who’s belongs in the teens. Does remind me a little of the old school Steelers style of pass rusher and I do think his traits mesh with each other, just don’t see him as a top ten guy.

Honestly with his build and style and being as young as he is I’d think it’d be more prudent to play him behind JFM early and rotate in at that edge spot than behind Lawson. Unless the idea is he’s completely maxed out physically. And I honestly don’t know how much they value arm length on that side.

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I haven't watched any tape yet, but those of you who are more knowledgable...

Lets say Jets take a DE in the first. Do you think Jets look at any of the hybrid OLB/DE like Jackson as an early down SAM then come to the line on passing downs? I know that's a much different role just trying to think outside the box as a way to help our weaknesses at LB and provide some versatility if injuries continue.

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27 minutes ago, IntoTheGreen said:

I haven't watched any tape yet, but those of you who are more knowledgable...

Lets say Jets take a DE in the first. Do you think Jets look at any of the hybrid OLB/DE like Jackson as an early down SAM then come to the line on passing downs? I know that's a much different role just trying to think outside the box as a way to help our weaknesses at LB and provide some versatility if injuries continue.

I really think they may draft Mosley's replacement this year vs a hybrid DE/OlB. But who knows? 

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This is from Bruce Feldmans 2021 college footballs freak list he does every year for the Athletic:

 

7. George Karlaftis, Purdue, defensive end

One of the biggest recruits the Boilers have landed in the last decade, Karlaftis began his career with a bang, with 17 TFLs and 7.5 sacks in 2019 as a freshman. He had two sacks in three games in an abbreviated 2020, but expectations about him are soaring for 2021. Karlaftis is a remarkable all-around athlete. He played on the U16 Greek national water polo team as a 13-year-old and then became a two-time Indiana state champ in the shot put and started for three seasons on his high school basketball team. At 272 pounds, Karlaftis’ body fat has dropped from 25 percent to 15 percent at Purdue. He power cleans 380, did a 505-pound front squat, a 10-1 broad jump and a 37-inch vertical jump. His 40 this offseason was 4.69. As part of his preparation, he spends an hour a day doing hand-to-hand combat and MMA drills, an hour on rehab/mobility exercises and a third hour watching film.

His position coach Mark Hagan has coached big-time players and says Karlaftis’ overall commitment to being elite is as good as anyone he’s ever been around in terms of “proper nutrition, proper hydration, extra time in the training room to take care of his body, extra stretching, extra meeting and video, extra drill work — every day. I’ve literally got to shut him down at times so he doesn’t overtrain.”

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58 minutes ago, IntoTheGreen said:

I haven't watched any tape yet, but those of you who are more knowledgable...

Lets say Jets take a DE in the first. Do you think Jets look at any of the hybrid OLB/DE like Jackson as an early down SAM then come to the line on passing downs? I know that's a much different role just trying to think outside the box as a way to help our weaknesses at LB and provide some versatility if injuries continue.

I think they want fast linebackers and are willing to give up size for it so I can’t see them running with an early down SAM who puts his hand in the dirt on passing downs. They rotate edges heavily anyway and think they’ll just draft edges to rotate rather than having guys play multiple positions. They run so much nickel too I think it reduces the need to have a lot of linebackers.

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45 minutes ago, derp said:

I think they want fast linebackers and are willing to give up size for it so I can’t see them running with an early down SAM who puts his hand in the dirt on passing downs. They rotate edges heavily anyway and think they’ll just draft edges to rotate rather than having guys play multiple positions. They run so much nickel too I think it reduces the need to have a lot of linebackers.

The last part is why I thought it might be tried out. If LBs are used less maybe a reason to throw someone like Jackson there for a few plays a game rather than pay/draft one. But overall, you're right in that it may not be worth it. Just let him do what he is best at and rush the passer. 

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On 12/30/2021 at 1:21 PM, Greenseed4 said:

This class is secretly loaded at the EDGE position.  As my humble service to the JN community, I have compiled them all here for quick-glance comparison of some potential mid-round targets if we miss out on the top two.  (Players are marked with 2 asterisks (**) for each of the following: double-digit TFL,  double-digit sacks, 50+ total tackles).

 

Aidan Hutchinson (6'6, 265): 13 GP - 58 tackles, 15.5 TFL, 14 sacks ******

Kayvon Thibodeaux (6'5, 250): 10 GP - 49 tackles, 12 TFL, 7 sacks**

George Karlaftis (6'4, 275): 12 GP - 39 tackles, 10 TFL, 4.5 sacks**

David Ojabo (6'5, 250): 13 GP - 35 tackles, 12 TFL, 11 sacks ****

Drake Jackson (6'4, 250) 10 GP - 37 tackles, 8 TFL, 5 sacks

Jermaine Johnson (6'5, 262) 12 GP - 70 tackles, 17.5 TFL, 11.5 sacks ******

Kingsley Enagbare (6'4, 270) 12 GP - 43 tackles, 7 TFL, 4.5 sacks

Cameron Thomas (6'5, 270) 14 GP - 71 tackles, 20.5 TFL, 10.5 sacks ******

Logan Hall (6'6, 275) 12 GP - 47 tackles, 13 TFL, 6 sacks**

Myjai Sanders (6'5, 258) 13 GP - 34 tackles, 7.5 TFL, 2.5 sacks

Nik Bonitto (6'3, 240) 11 GP - 39 tackles, 15 TFL, 7 sacks**

Zach Harrison (6'6, 265) 10 GP - 25 tackles, 6 TFL, 2 sacks

Sam Williams (6'4, 265) 12 GP - 56 tackles, 14 TFL, 12.5 sacks ******

Arnold Ebiketie (6'3, 256) 12 GP - 62 tackles, 18 TFL, 9.5 sacks ******

Will McDonald IV (6'4, 245) 12 GP - 36 tackles, 14 TFL, 11.5 sacks  ****

 

The players who are not within earshot of 50 tackles got some splaining to do.

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2 hours ago, IntoTheGreen said:

The last part is why I thought it might be tried out. If LBs are used less maybe a reason to throw someone like Jackson there for a few plays a game rather than pay/draft one. But overall, you're right in that it may not be worth it. Just let him do what he is best at and rush the passer. 

Yeah I kind of see what you’re getting at, I just think the nickel is why they wouldn’t need/have that traditional SAM on the field much anyway. And they just run with guys who are so small and want them to cover. I think anyone who can cover at the level they need to play linebacker and rush at the level to be a situational pass rusher would be on the field every down in one of those capacities. To be good enough at both…think it’d be hard to find.

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58 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I love the way he wins. I think he’s gonna  test well especially in the flexibility drills. 

Dude can move and has a little pop. He looks stiff...somehow but I've also seen him flip his hips really smoothly so that's not the issue (and doesn't matter any more in the 4-3). May just play too high sometimes. I feel like he's flexible enough to look more fluid than he does when I watch him.

The big question is going to be what happened with the off field incident. Charges dropped of course but I'm sure he'll have to answer questions about what happened and teams will do their background checks.

I'm sure they'll talk to Moore about him too. Kind of funny that he had some character stuff after the Egg Bowl incident when he was what, a freshman, and then you dig and as far as we can tell right now his character is outstanding - AJ Brown stuff, etc. Obviously the charges against Williams were way, way more serious than Moore's on field faux pas but it'd be interesting to go back to Ole Miss.

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On 12/30/2021 at 5:19 PM, Barton said:

How you gonna take Karlafis in the top 10 when he has 4 freakin sacks? Ditto for Thibodeaux with only 7 sacks, as a top 3 pick? Good Lord. 

These stats don't show the whole picture. This is why you cannot just look at stats. Karlaftis has his weaknesses but he is a monster pass rusher. He had 7.5 sacks his freshman year, when he was just a baby really (being that he is a junior). Purdue has no other pass rusher to help draw attention away, so Karlaftis saw a lot of double-teams.  You also have to look at his pressures, not just sacks.

 

On 12/30/2021 at 9:22 PM, PLO said:

Thing is with Karlaftis is that he's stiff below his hips, so he can't really rush that well going outside an opposing tackle. Also, for a guy who is apparently very strong in the upper body he struggles against bigger players. Guess what type of players he will be facing in the NFL. 

Compare him to Thibs or Ojabo, both have freakish athletic traits, including that bend you need to rush outside a tackle. 

This is also a deep class at pass rush, the value for getting an iffy prospect like Karlaftis with a first round pick just isn't there. There are a number of players who play "lower value" positions who are just much more "sure fire" with those first picks we have. 

 

Eh. Thats a nit-picky thing that comes up ones you start to scrutinize prospects. Personally, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the top 5 Pass Rushers this year- Hutch., Thib., Kar., Ojabo, Johnson. Its going to come down to who Saleh thinks is the best fit. 

But to address your concerns. Karlaftis may be a bit stiff below the hips and doesn't have that 'bend' you want in an edge rusher but he is also strong as a bull, polished- with a variety of pass rush moves, and explosive off the line- especially for someone his size. He can attack the o-lineman inside or outside and that gives him an advantage to beat tackles off the edge- they can't sell out to the outside on him. He doesn't nec. need the ultra bend because of his speed, strength and moves. Makes sense? One of the reasons guys like Vic Beasley didn't succeed in the NFL was that they were one-dimensional. He had great athleticism, great bend and speed. However, he was strictly an outside edge rusher and tackles would simply sell out to the outside. Karlaftis has the speed and explosiveness to attack off the edge, the strength to go inside and the moves to be a total headache for the opposing lineman. And his motor is top notch. 

Having said that, Sure, I'd go with Thib. over him. He just has that immense upside you cannot pass on. I would probably go with Hutch over him as well. But once we get down to Ojabo (who is very raw) and Johnson (who may not be a great fit in our scheme) I'm not so sure. 

Karlaftis is 6'4, 275 and looking at him he has the frame to add more muscle/weight. He's only 20. I don't love comparing NFL players to prospects but yes, he does remind me of a less athletic Bosa. I mean, pick either one. The size and explosiveness is similar. He has the strength and moves. He just doesn't have the same length and athleticism. Few do.    

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On 1/6/2022 at 9:09 AM, kdels62 said:

I love the way he wins. I think he’s gonna  test well especially in the flexibility drills. 

I don't see the fit. He is a DE in a 4-3 but I don;t really see him as a good fit for the Jets at that position. And then there are some off field issues? I know the sexual battery charges were dropped...but those are typically not ignored and come up as red flags. From what I've read up on him he is not very explosive and doesn't have an array of moves, rather uses his strength to win? Thats another red flag as that will not cut it in the NFL. 

I dunno. Maybe I just don't know much about him, but if we are going for a pass rusher this year I want someone who will make an immediate impact. 

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On 1/5/2022 at 11:06 AM, IntoTheGreen said:

I haven't watched any tape yet, but those of you who are more knowledgable...

Lets say Jets take a DE in the first. Do you think Jets look at any of the hybrid OLB/DE like Jackson as an early down SAM then come to the line on passing downs? I know that's a much different role just trying to think outside the box as a way to help our weaknesses at LB and provide some versatility if injuries continue.

Considering they have been drafting safeties and converting them to LB I would say NO. Certainly not a guy like Jackson. Especially if they have already taken an edge. If anything, I could see them taking a versatile safety. But odds are, IMO, Rd. 2 will be all offense. 

If I was to take a wild guess the first 4 selections will be Edge, O-line, WR, TE. With, like I said, potentially a safety taken in Rd. 2 instead of TE or WR. 

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Just now, PepPep said:

Considering they have been drafting safeties and converting them to LB I would say NO. Certainly not a guy like Jackson. Especially if they have already taken an edge. If anything, I could see them taking a versatile safety. But odds are, IMO, Rd. 2 will be all offense. 

If I was to take a wild guess the first 4 selections will be Edge, O-line, WR, TE. With, like I said, potentially a safety taken in Rd. 2 instead of TE or WR. 

I suspect WR and OL get flip flopped but this is my lean as well. And I'd throw linebacker with a chance to end up in there in addition to safety.

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37 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Considering they have been drafting safeties and converting them to LB I would say NO. Certainly not a guy like Jackson. Especially if they have already taken an edge. If anything, I could see them taking a versatile safety. But odds are, IMO, Rd. 2 will be all offense. 

If I was to take a wild guess the first 4 selections will be Edge, O-line, WR, TE. With, like I said, potentially a safety taken in Rd. 2 instead of TE or WR. 

Ya, I've come to the conclusion that was stupid thought. Another possibly stupid thought: could Mosely play the SAM? If we choose his replacement at the top of the second could this work? Then let Nas and Sherwood compete for the WILL.

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59 minutes ago, PepPep said:

These stats don't show the whole picture. This is why you cannot just look at stats. Karlaftis has his weaknesses but he is a monster pass rusher. He had 7.5 sacks his freshman year, when he was just a baby really (being that he is a junior). Purdue has no other pass rusher to help draw attention away, so Karlaftis saw a lot of double-teams.  You also have to look at his pressures, not just sacks.

 

Eh. Thats a nit-picky thing that comes up ones you start to scrutinize prospects. Personally, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the top 5 Pass Rushers this year- Hutch., Thib., Kar., Ojabo, Johnson. Its going to come down to who Saleh thinks is the best fit. 

But to address your concerns. Karlaftis may be a bit stiff below the hips and doesn't have that 'bend' you want in an edge rusher but he is also strong as a bull, polished- with a variety of pass rush moves, and explosive off the line- especially for someone his size. He can attack the o-lineman inside or outside and that gives him an advantage to beat tackles off the edge- they can't sell out to the outside on him. He doesn't nec. need the ultra bend because of his speed, strength and moves. Makes sense? One of the reasons guys like Vic Beasley didn't succeed in the NFL was that they were one-dimensional. He had great athleticism, great bend and speed. However, he was strictly an outside edge rusher and tackles would simply sell out to the outside. Karlaftis has the speed and explosiveness to attack off the edge, the strength to go inside and the moves to be a total headache for the opposing lineman. And his motor is top notch. 

Having said that, Sure, I'd go with Thib. over him. He just has that immense upside you cannot pass on. I would probably go with Hutch over him as well. But once we get down to Ojabo (who is very raw) and Johnson (who may not be a great fit in our scheme) I'm not so sure. 

Karlaftis is 6'4, 275 and looking at him he has the frame to add more muscle/weight. He's only 20. I don't love comparing NFL players to prospects but yes, he does remind me of a less athletic Bosa. I mean, pick either one. The size and explosiveness is similar. He has the strength and moves. He just doesn't have the same length and athleticism. Few do.    

I'll be looking out for his wingspan measurements because in pass-rush terms, he's got T-Rex arms. One reason why he doesn't have that many sacks, together with his stiffness. With a class this deep I think he would be a very big reach inside the top 10 TBH. 

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25 minutes ago, PLO said:

I'll be looking out for his wingspan measurements because in pass-rush terms, he's got T-Rex arms. One reason why he doesn't have that many sacks, together with his stiffness. With a class this deep I think he would be a very big reach inside the top 10 TBH. 

Yeah, I dunno. To be honest, IMO, arm length for a pass rusher is not a big factor. I know drftniks will disagree but I will take motor and proper hand usage over arm length ANY DAY. Again, not to say that having long arms doesn't help. But if you are explosive, have great power and a plethora of moves to go along with an outstanding motor and size, you can be a devastating pass rusher, even if you have short arms. 

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14 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Yeah, I dunno. To be honest, IMO, arm length for a pass rusher is not a big factor. I know drftniks will disagree but I will take motor and proper hand usage over arm length ANY DAY. Again, not to say that having long arms doesn't help. But if you are explosive, have great power and a plethora of moves to go along with an outstanding motor and size, you can be a devastating pass rusher, even if you have short arms. 

I mean, guys come in all different shapes and sizes. If your thing is hand usage it’s harder to disengage when the tackle has longer arms than you. That’s where Aldon Smith and Chandler Jones succeed despite lacking explosiveness. Length and hand usage pair well together.

Its not just the length - it’s the length, the sack production, the college career trajectory, stiffness because of how rocked up he is, and the rawness against the run. On the other hand you’ve got motor, strength, hand usage in the pass game, and explosiveness for his size.

Development wise you’re talking about a 275 pound guy who needs to be a situational pass rusher early in his career because he’s raw against the run - but he also hasn’t proved he can finish sacks. The length helps when it comes to closing on quarterbacks too.

Even when you watch his highlights there’s really not much against the high end competition Purdue played and he’s unblocked on a pretty decent chunk of his big plays.

He’s explosive for his size too but doesn’t look like a blow the doors off athlete. The freaks article has him I think at 4.69 which is super, super impressive at 275ish but it doesn’t have him as some insane top of the draft athlete to the point of compensating for a little stiffness, short arms, etc - again, to be considered a lock top ten prospect the Jets should be looking at seriously with pick 4.

None of that means he can’t be an excellent pro. He does remind me of those Steelers rushers from a decade ago and some of those squatty guys who came out of Michigan who had success a while ago.

It’s just a weird mix of traits and production to have people pushing to take in the top ten as the clear cut third edge. I can already envision him dropping in the mock draft machines and people clamoring to take him because he fell for no good reason after the combine. But a lot to all of the more experienced draft guys (Brugler 11, Kiper 13, McShay 19, Miller 18) already have him in that teens range and it just feels like it’s where he fits as a prospect. 

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43 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Yeah, I dunno. To be honest, IMO, arm length for a pass rusher is not a big factor. I know drftniks will disagree but I will take motor and proper hand usage over arm length ANY DAY. Again, not to say that having long arms doesn't help. But if you are explosive, have great power and a plethora of moves to go along with an outstanding motor and size, you can be a devastating pass rusher, even if you have short arms. 

All those things are a bigger part of the picture rather than someone having arms that are 3 inches short.

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3 hours ago, kdels62 said:

He’s a maxed out 240 lbs. Not a fit here but he is a good, high motor talent for. 3-4.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we sign our starting DE in free agency (Dante Fowler?), and then focus on a later round development/ role player for EDGE.  Nik Bonitto falls into the hybrid LB/ DPR category, and I think he’d be a great fit here in that capacity. 

 

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I said a few years ago, trade up for Bosa. Now I'm not saying Hutchinson is Nick Bosa but......

Should the Jets consider swapping picks with the Lions at #2, giving the Lions 1 of the Jets 2nd rd picks in order to move up for Hutch?

At some point we need a legit edge rusher. We havent had one since 2005. 

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32 minutes ago, Barton said:

I said a few years ago, trade up for Bosa. Now I'm not saying Hutchinson is Nick Bosa but......

Should the Jets consider swapping picks with the Lions at #2, giving the Lions 1 of the Jets 2nd rd picks in order to move up for Hutch?

At some point we need a legit edge rusher. We havent had one since 2005. 

Looking at the stats in the original post in this thread, and considering the reports/measurements coming out of Mobile this week - I think Jermaine Johnson II is that guy, and we likely won't have to trade up for him.

Granted, he might vastly outperform Hutch at the combine and things could change, but right now I'd say we have more information on him - since Hutch didn't go to the senior bowl, and Jermaine Johnson did not have Ojabo playing on the other side of him.

Just my two cents, I def do not have the expertise as others do on this forum.

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5 hours ago, Jethead said:

What about this guy Boye Mafe? I never heard of him, and he blew up the Senior Bowl. Any of you experts have a take on him?

(6’4, 265) with 81.5 inch wingspan. 

Developmental guy who played primarily from a 2-pt stance and had modest college production. 2021: 6 sacks, 9TFL, 30 tackles. 

Goes to Mobile and gets coached into putting a hand on the ground… gets 2 sacks, 1 TFL, and a FF in one game with limited playing time.  I think his arrow is pointing straight up. 

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1 minute ago, kdels62 said:

So now we’re at the overrated Jermaine Johnson portion of the draft cycle. Boye Mafe and Jermaine Johnson might rise but they are older players who used physical ability to win. Jermaine Johnson has to test through the roof to justify his rise. 

I got excited because he has good tools, but then watched some of his games and got disappointed he doesn't nearly play up to his physical ability. I expected more honestly, he's not great against the run and disappeared in stretches of games. I'm thinking he's a high candidate to be overdrafted. Which sucks, because based on how he looked in practices thought I missed out on him and was praising him.

At the end of the day, edge will start settling after the combine, so it's largely moot, but based on his in-season play wouldn't touch him with a first or 2nd round pick.

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2 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

I got excited because he has good tools, but then watched some of his games and got disappointed he doesn't nearly play up to his physical ability. I expected more honestly, he's not great against the run and disappeared in stretches of games. I'm thinking he's a high candidate to be overdrafted. Which sucks, because based on how he looked in practices thought I missed out on him and was praising him.

At the end of the day, edge will start settling after the combine, so it's largely moot, but based on his in-season play wouldn't touch him with a first or 2nd round pick.

Yep. Johnson is bad run defender and an inconsistent pass rusher. People here are anti-Karlaftis but his tape blows Johnson out of the water. With edge players physical traits matter so all these guys are on unstable ground but the Jermaine Johnson rise is misguided. He’s also 2 years older than Karlaftis. 

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