Do what you want with this information

[Jetsfan80]

11 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

Trey Lance looked way more raw in his initial playing time, and the 49'ers gave up 3 1st rounders for him.

Trey Lance only played in 1 collegiate game last year and only had 17 starts total.  No sh*t he was raw.  The 49ers were banking on elite physical traits that Wilson lacks and already had Jimmy Garoppolo on the roster.  They were in position to take a gamble like that.  Still doesn't mean it was the right call to take him, nor does that mean the Jets made a sound decision in comparison by taking Wilson, either. 

Again, my point is Wilson wasn't SUPPOSED to be raw.  Lance was, but there were reasons to like him in spite of that.  

 

11 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

Josh Allen was a project and I'm sure the Bills feel good about it right now.

For the 50th time, there's nothing to learn when it comes to Allen.  People just need to drop that cold take already.  Allen is a physical freak and he somehow did what no other QB has done in NFL history:  Go from sucking in the accuracy department in college, struggle with it his first 2 years in the pros, and "fix it" in his 3rd season.  Nothing about that is translatable to any other prospect.  

 

11 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

Fields looks like a pretty big project in himself.

Fields is indeed looking like a project.  Hence why he fell to # 11 overall.  That's a lot less draft capital spent than a # 2 overall pick.

 

11 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

The CS believes in him still, I'm assuming.  So that's all that matters.

Oh, great, the coaching still believes in him!  That changes everything!  Just like Matt Rhule and Todd Bowles believed in Sam Darnold!

Really?  This is "all that matters"?  Nah, Mister Stair Climber and his cronies' opinions aren't "all that matters" when it comes to their Wilson's rawness or his chances of succeeding.  All that will influence is perhaps whether Douglas brings in legitimate QB competition this offseason.  

[HawkeyeJet]

The 4 games that turned Mike White into a legend:

88/132. 953 Yards.  5 tds.  8 picks. 75.1 QB Rating

Zach Wilson’s last 4 games:

69/125.  700 yards.  3TDs.  1 pick.  76.1 QB rating.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Lol.   The world doesn’t work the way you think it does.  A FCS QB went 3rd.  

Read my post above.  The 49ers are banking on his physical gifts.  Gifts which Wilson lacks.  And they also had Garoppolo to hold the fort.  The Jets' not bringing in any QB competition whatsoever suggested they didn't expect Wilson to be a highly raw prospect.

[rtnelson]

Just now, HawkeyeJet said:

The 4 games that turned Mike White into a legend:

88/132. 953 Yards.  5 tds.  8 picks. 75.1 QB Rating

Zach Wilson’s last 4 games:

69/125.  700 yards.  3TDs.  1 pick.  76.1 QB rating.

It was a single game that turned MW into a legend.  Everything else is thrown out the window. 

Even Flacco gets credit for a 300 yard game, but Wilson doesn't even though they both threw in the 290's.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

The 4 games that turned Mike White into a legend:

88/132. 953 Yards.  5 tds.  8 picks. 75.1 QB Rating

Zach Wilson’s last 4 games:

69/125.  700 yards.  3TDs.  1 pick.  76.1 QB rating.

Cool?  Wilson is supposed to have more talent in his pinky than White has in his entire body.  At least that's what we've been told lately.  

And I'll take the 5 TDs and 8 INTs over the 3 TDs and 1 INT.  We scored more points with White under center.  Simple as that.  

[Hal N of Provo]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Read my post above.  The 49ers are banking on his physical gifts.  Gifts which Wilson lacks.  And they also had Garoppolo to hold the fort.  The Jets' not bringing in any QB competition whatsoever suggested they didn't expect Wilson to be a highly raw prospect.

It doesn’t matter.   Teams draft the best QB for their career.  Not their rookie season.  
 

If all the coaches weren’t rookies this season would have been smoother, but everyone learned.   You can’t cheat time.  If they are the right people it’s worth the investment.  

[slimjasi]

54 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I dunno, maybe some of the same guys White, Josh Johnson and Flacco threw 11 TDs to over the course of 4.5 games?  

 

we’ve been over this. 
 

The Jets are 1-3 in the 4 complete games without Wilson, which consisted of: the Mike White game, 17 points in a blowout loss to the Bills (the other Mike White game), 17 points in a loss to the Dolphins, and another game in which the team was down 42-10 before Josh Johnson put in some good work in mop up duty. Also - Elijah Moore played in every one of those 4 games and scored TDs in 2 of them. ( He hasn’t played since the Eagles game.) Meanwhile, 3 of the team’s 4 wins were Zach Wilson games. 

Basically, this argument doesn’t go anywhere.  

[Jetsfan80]

12 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

Played well in the Eagles game. The whole team got schooled vs. the Saints. Over 250 rushing yds against the Jags so wasn't asked to do much.  He's better now vs. before the injury.  This is what you want to see... 

Only if your bar for rookie QB progression is roughly an inch off the floor.  

[Jet_Engine1]

1 hour ago, doitny said:

im afraid to ask how you know about @Jetsfan80 erections.

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And I'll take the 5 TDs and 8 INTs over the 3 TDs and 1 INT.  We scored more points with White under center.  Simple as that.  

This is absurd and speaks for itself.

According  to PFF, Mike White was at the very top of the league in turnover worthy plays during his brief stint as the Jets starter - No coach in the world is taking 5 TDs/ 8 INTs over 3 TDs/ 1 INT.

Are you still drunk from last night? 

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, Pac said:

Multiple would-be picks dropped the last couple games but if it helps his confidence then thats cool.

And you could say this about every QB who throws a pass.  

 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

 

we’ve been over this. 
 

The Jets are 1-3 in the 4 complete games without Wilson, which consisted of: the Mike White game, 17 points in a blowout loss to the Bills (the other Mike White game), 17 points in a loss to the Dolphins, and another game in which the team was down 42-10 before Josh Johnson put in some good work in mop up duty. Also - Elijah Moore played in every one of those 4 games and scored TDs in 2 of them. ( He hasn’t played since the Eagles game.) Meanwhile, 3 of the team’s 4 wins were Zach Wilson games. 

Basically, this argument doesn’t go anywhere.  

Jets offense with Wilson under center (10 games, we won't credit the Pats game to him):  15.1 ppg

Jets offense with any other QB under center:  22.2 ppg

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

This is absurd and speaks for itself.

According  to PFF, Mike White was at the very top of the league in turnover worthy plays during his brief stint as the Jets starter - No coach in the world is taking 5 TDs/ 8 INTs over 3 TDs/ 1 INT.

Are you still drunk from last night? 

So you think less points is better in certain instances.  Got it.  

[rtnelson]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Jets offense with Wilson under center (10 games, we won't credit the Pats game to him):  15.1 ppg

Jets offense with any other QB under center:  22.2 ppg

4 games without him: 22.2

Most recent 4 games: 19.25

With completely different supporting casts.  The difference isn't as large as you think.

[IndianaJet]

I’m old enough to remember Sam Darnold showing “promising” improvement in his last couple of games in 2018. 

[HawkeyeJet]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Cool?  Wilson is supposed to have more talent in his pinky than White has in his entire body.  At least that's what we've been told lately.  

And I'll take the 5 TDs and 8 INTs over the 3 TDs and 1 INT.  We scored more points with White under center.  Simple as that.  

Wilson accounted for more TDs in these last 4 games then White did in his.  

Wilson is more talented.  I don’t think that’s debatable.

I don’t care if you or anyone thinks Wilson is a schmuck.  It bothers me that White gets propped up like he was some Phenom when essentially producing the same as Wilson does now.

 

[munchmemory]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Jets offense with Wilson under center (10 games, we won't credit the Pats game to him):  15.1 ppg

Jets offense with any other QB under center:  22.2 ppg

I'm a bit disappointed that Shaq Barrett and JPP are out tomorrow.   Really wanted to see if Zach could perform against a solid pass rush/defense.

[DetroitRed]

I think Mike White has 4 years in the league .  I’m sure he was the same player in year 1

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, munchmemory said:

I'm a bit disappointed that Shaq Barrett and JPP are outb tomorrow.   Really wanted to see if Zach could perform against a solid pass rush/defense.

Oh, you can be sure there will still be a pass rush and excellent defense played by the Bucs.  Unless I missed something about any of these guys being out, they still have Devin White, Vea, Suh, William Gholston, 2021 1st round pick Joe Tryon, and a very good secondary.  Plus our good friend Steve McLendon.

[rtnelson]

2 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

I'm a bit disappointed that Shaq Barrett and JPP are out tomorrow.   Really wanted to see if Zach could perform against a solid pass rush/defense.

We saw how the team does against a solid pass rush two weeks ago.  The line melts down and our practice squad receivers can't get open.

Them having a few guys out will maybe make our missing starting center a slightly easier thing to deal with.  Zach is going to get pressured a lot this game.  Don't worry about that.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

By the time the 2021 season wraps up he’ll have the same # of career starts as Josh Rosen.  And given his final 2 opponents, he’ll likely have roughly the same numbers as Rosen, too. 

Difference, and its a big one, he still will have a job, a starting job in the NFL.  

Unlike Rosen.

If you see anything in an analogy with Josh Rosen you should check out of a thread discussing football

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

4 games without him: 22.2

Most recent 4 games: 19.25

With completely different supporting casts.  The difference isn't as large as you think.

So even with Wilson's improved play of late, we were still better with two 3rd string-caliber QB's and a semi-retired, 36 year old Joe Flacco.

Oh, joy.  

[Green Ghost]

49 minutes ago, heymangold said:

In fairness, the cardinals were a better team held back by Rosen.  They were 8-8 the year before they drafted him, 3-13 with him.  The jets were god awful last year, doubled their win total this year, albeit not very impressively.

You guys who keep talking about doubling the wins from 2 to 4 and acting  like it’s an accomplishment make me laugh.

[rtnelson]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

So even with Wilson's improved play of late, we were still better with two 3rd string-caliber QB's and a semi-retired, 36 year old Joe Flacco.

Oh, joy.  

You already know the response to this.  Round and round and round we go.

[munchmemory]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Oh, you can be sure there will still be a pass rush and excellent defense played by the Bucs.  Unless I missed something about any of these guys being out, they still have Devin White, Vea, Suh, William Gholston, 2021 1st round pick Joe Tryon, and a very good secondary.  Plus our good friend Steve McLendon.

Just once, I want to see Zach step up in the pocket instead of heading for the sideline and heaving the ball away.   He needs to learn to relax and let the ball go.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

Difference, and its a big one, he still will have a job, a starting job in the NFL.  

Unlike Rosen.

If you see anything in an analogy with Josh Rosen you should check out of a thread discussing football

Get back to me when Wilson's numbers stop looking like Rosen's.  Wilson having a starting job longer than Rosen isn't going to be a "drop the mic" moment if Wilson ends up holding the Jets back longer than Rosen did, similar to the way Sam Darnold failed here.

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

39 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I'd like to see some of these skills that Wilson has translate onto the field one of these days.  

And if Wilson had produced in garbage time, you'd have a point when it comes to Johnson.  The same people who have been dismissing Johnson's 317 yards and 3 TDs against the Colts in "garbage time" have been excusing away Wilson's lack of productivity in blowouts by saying things like "He was down big, what did you expect him to do?"

I’m not trying to justify any of Wilson’s poor play this year, there has been lots of it.

What I am saying is that his play has been trending Up, that’s a fact, he has been going through multiple progressions and doing smart things with ball, NONE of which we were seeing pre-injury.

Kid has lots of talent and should not be written off.

Besides, projecting this rookie to bust or that rookie to bust is playing the Chalk, since the majority do, no one really deserves a pat on the back when it almost inevitably happens.

Could happen with Wilson, but his odds of it not are looking somewhat better.

[FidelioJet]

3 hours ago, Pac said:

Multiple would-be picks dropped the last couple games but if it helps his confidence then thats cool.

Eh. All QB’s have dropped picks.   
He’s playing much smarter football. 

[GreenFish]

24 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

The 4 games that turned Mike White into a legend:

88/132. 953 Yards.  5 tds.  8 picks. 75.1 QB Rating

Zach Wilson’s last 4 games:

69/125.  700 yards.  3TDs.  1 pick.  76.1 QB rating.

Wow. That’s surprising. It feels like Mike White was significantly better.

[FidelioJet]

13 minutes ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

I’m not trying to justify any of Wilson’s poor play this year, there has been lots of it.

What I am saying is that his play has been trending Up, that’s a fact, he has been going through multiple progressions and doing smart things with ball, NONE of which we were seeing pre-injury.

Kid has lots of talent and should not be written off.

Besides, projecting this rookie to bust or that rookie to bust is playing the Chalk, since the majority do, no one really deserves a pat on the back when it almost inevitably happens.

Could happen with Wilson, but his odds of it not are looking somewhat better.

Great post. 
He hasn’t been good but there’s clear and steady progress.  
We’re watching a franchise QB develop right before our eyes and it’s exciting to see.  

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Besides, projecting this rookie to bust or that rookie to bust is playing the Chalk, since the majority do, no one really deserves a pat on the back when it almost inevitably happens.

I'm not looking for a pat on the back.  My wish is for the team to be willing to "fail quickly" with Wilson; I.E., not let him waste the next 3 years like Darnold did.  

Despite Wilson's improvements of late, there's no doubt his stock has fallen overall since his pre-draft rise.  QBASE gave him a 44+ % chance of being upper tier/elite and only a 29 % chance of being a bust.  Those odds have only gone in the wrong direction based on his rookie year play.  These datapoints matter, no matter how much his defenders yell and scream about rookie seasons being a wash.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Normally people are called “haters” when they are negative towards someone who is actually successful. 

We’re just telling the truth about Wilson and you guys don’t want to hear it, because feelings and stuff.  

It’s why Darnold defenders were so quick to talk about how nice a guy Darnold is.  Because feelings were the driving force behind their defense and support of him. 

Maybe you derailing every thread by tearing ZW up with the same nonsense every day is boring up to death.  I kind of remember Max telling people to stop ruining threads.  

Wait, we're being informed by @Jetsfan80, rookie QBs need development before they become a finished product.  Wow, talk about insight.  How TL, ZW, TL & JF are reading this.  

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Eh. All QB’s have dropped picks.   
He’s playing much smarter football. 

All QB's have WR's who drop passes too but you wouldn't know it when people read your posts.

I'll agree to never say the word "dropped pick" ever again if you agree to never mention a dropped pass again.  Deal?

[Jet Nut]

7 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

Just once, I want to see Zach step up in the pocket instead of heading for the sideline and heaving the ball away.   He needs to learn to relax and let the ball go.

 

Just once.  Are you serious?

[rtnelson]

4 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

Wow. That’s surprising. It feels like Mike White was significantly better.

Because when his guys caught the ball, their names were Davis, Moore, Crowder, Carter, and Barrios and they all got YAC.

When Zach's guys catch the ball they were already in the process of being tackled because they don't gain separation.

When Tom Brady loses his top guys people start talking like they just lost their chance at a superbowl.

When the Jets lose their top guys, some fans want a rookie QB to have better stats than guys with a combined 30 years of experience on him that had those guys.