Tip of the Hat to LeFlure

[More Cowbell]

The guy called a Hell of a game against a pretty good D. 

[section314]

1 minute ago, More Cowbell said:

The guy called a Hell of a game against a pretty good D. 

With the barest of cupboards, especially after Carter and Fant exited. 

[greenwichjetfan]

LaFleur has consistently been one of the brightest spots in a pretty dismal season.

That said, the final offensive play call yesterday was atrocious. Whether it's the play itself, or the communication of the play to the QB - he needs to be better in that spot. 

[Corn]

With just one major botch call 4th 2.   

The Jets are looking good with promising future.

[Joe W. Namath]

1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

LaFleur has consistently been one of the brightest spots in a pretty dismal season.

That said, the final offensive play call yesterday was atrocious. Whether it's the play itself, or the communication of the play to the QB - he needs to be better in that spot. 

It was actually a great playcall and would have worked if zach ran option b off that play and gave it to berrios.  Rookie coord and rookie qb.  Mistakes are going to happen.  We learn and move on.

[More Cowbell]

2 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

It was actually a great playcall and would have worked if zach ran option b off that play and gave it to berrios.  Rookie coord and rookie qb.  Mistakes are going to happen.  We learn and move on.

Option B was a sneak. The play called was the Jet Sweep according  to Saleh in the post game interview.  

[JoJoTownsell1]

9 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

The guy called a Hell of a game against a pretty good D. 

He's been calling great games ever since he went to the booth. All the clowns joking about him going to the booth "like it would make a difference" have suddenly stopped those jokes.

[Joe W. Namath]

Just now, More Cowbell said:

Option B was a sneak. The play called was the Jet Sweep according  to Saleh in the post game interview.  

As far as i understand it, there is no concrete option a or b for the play.  Its just a play with 2 options and zach decides what option he uses based on what he sees at the line of scrimmage.

[chirorob]

9 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

LaFleur has consistently been one of the brightest spots in a pretty dismal season.

That said, the final offensive play call yesterday was atrocious. Whether it's the play itself, or the communication of the play to the QB - he needs to be better in that spot. 

I believe it was supposed to be an option, with the ball going to Berrios, but Zach kept it himself.

[greenwichjetfan]

5 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

It was actually a great playcall and would have worked if zach ran option b off that play and gave it to berrios.  Rookie coord and rookie qb.  Mistakes are going to happen.  We learn and move on.

It was actually an atrocious play call given what happened. If the play call was supposed to be a reverse to Berrios, the playcall should have been a reverse to Berrios; not an option.

That's my point. LaFleur has been awesome and was incorrectly lambasted early in the season for Wilson's struggles, but he's a rookie who made a rookie mistake and needs to be better next time. 

[section314]

1 minute ago, chirorob said:

I believe it was supposed to be an option, with the ball going to Berrios, but Zach kept it himself.

That's why you use another TO. Leave no grey area. It was only the game.?

[bostonmajet]

13 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

LaFleur has consistently been one of the brightest spots in a pretty dismal season.

That said, the final offensive play call yesterday was atrocious. Whether it's the play itself, or the communication of the play to the QB - he needs to be better in that spot. 

Agreed on both points. To think many on this site, including me, thought he was the problem and that Saleh screwed the pooch on the OC and should move on. I guess you can't judge an OC of a really bad team by the first few weeks either - who knew?

[Greenseed4]

2 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

That said, the final offensive play call yesterday was atrocious. Whether it's the play itself, or the communication of the play to the QB - he needs to be better in that spot. 

A snap of the A-gap shows that this play call is probably effective with (1) the starting Center (not Feeny), (2) a people-moving OG (not LDT), (3) more experience running the play (i.e., knowing the LBs are going to rush the gap, use of cadence, timing, and leverage to win the short yards). 

A veteran QB gets this first down.
A tenured play caller is going to factor in the personnel and and know to not call this play. 

This play is a reminder that our OC is also in his first year, and will have growing pains. 

[More Cowbell]

7 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

As far as i understand it, there is no concrete option a or b for the play.  Its just a play with 2 options and zach decides what option he uses based on what he sees at the line of scrimmage.

That is not at all what Saleh said. He clearly said the call was a Jet Sweep and LeFlure screwed up the communication by not making it clear it was a Jet Sweep and nothing else. 

[Warfish]

3 minutes ago, Greenseed4 said:

A snap of the A-gap shows that this play call is probably effective with (1) the starting Center (not Feeny), (2) a people-moving OG (not LDT), (3) more experience running the play (i.e., knowing the LBs are going to rush the gap, use of cadence, timing, and leverage to win the short yards). 

A veteran QB gets this first down.
A tenured play caller is going to factor in the personnel and and know to not call this play. 

This play is a reminder that our OC is also in his first year, and will have growing pains. 

That pic is not great evidence, Zach isn't even up on Center yet.  

If you want to prove there was space, you'd need to show the same picture at the second the ball was snapped.  Not 20 second before that.

[bostonmajet]

4 minutes ago, Greenseed4 said:

A snap of the A-gap shows that this play call is probably effective with (1) the starting Center (not Feeny), (2) a people-moving OG (not LDT), (3) more experience running the play (i.e., knowing the LBs are going to rush the gap, use of cadence, timing, and leverage to win the short yards). 

A veteran QB gets this first down.
A tenured play caller is going to factor in the personnel and and know to not call this play. 

This play is a reminder that our OC is also in his first year, and will have growing pains. 

thanks for that.

3 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

That is not at all what Saleh said. He clearly said the call was a Jet Sweep and LeFlure screwed up the communication by not making it clear it was a Jet Sweep and nothing else. 

Of course he could be covering for his QB which is the right thing to do. Either way, it is a learning moment; hopefully all parties have learned the right lesson for when the games really matter.

My big concern is that they learn the wrong lesson and next time play not to loose - they get the first down and the game is over even without the score - if we go for the FG, they start off with better field position (make or not), save a few seconds, and hope the D which was already struggling can slow down a red hot Brady.

[Snell41]

It was actually an atrocious play call given what happened. If the play call was supposed to be a reverse to Berrios, the playcall should have been a reverse to Berrios; not an option.
That's my point. LaFleur has been awesome and was incorrectly lambasted early in the season for Wilson's struggles, but he's a rookie who made a rookie mistake and needs to be better next time. 

You have no idea what you’re talking about. None. Play calls all have secondary options for a QB to check off to. All of them do. It’s common sense for the QB at the line to see if the called play is good or if the alternate play is a better option. Basically what you’re saying is the coaching staff should have said “hey Zach, just to be sure you’re not stupid enough to realize the QB sneak option built into this play is not good on 4th and 2 right?” In which case you’re right, he was stupid enough to think it was and therefore the coaches should have accounted for his stupidity.


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[bla bla bla]

11 minutes ago, Greenseed4 said:

A snap of the A-gap shows that this play call is probably effective with (1) the starting Center (not Feeny), (2) a people-moving OG (not LDT), (3) more experience running the play (i.e., knowing the LBs are going to rush the gap, use of cadence, timing, and leverage to win the short yards). 

A veteran QB gets this first down.
A tenured play caller is going to factor in the personnel and and know to not call this play. 

This play is a reminder that our OC is also in his first year, and will have growing pains. 

A gaps are definitely there, glad he is robotic and can diagnose this pre snap and make the call they want him to but 4th and 2 QB sneak is still a horrible call there. 

[greenwichjetfan]

4 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 

You have no idea what you’re talking about. None. Play calls all have secondary options for a QB to check off to. All of them do. It’s common sense for the QB at the line to see if the called play is good or if the alternate play is a better option. Basically what you’re saying is the coaching staff should have said “hey Zach, just to be sure you’re not stupid enough to realize the QB sneak option built into this play is not good on 4th and 2 right?” In which case you’re right, he was stupid enough to think it was and therefore the coaches should have accounted for his stupidity.


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wat is this

[Snell41]

That pic is not great evidence, Zach isn't even up on Center yet.  
If you want to prove there was space, you'd need to show the same picture at the second the ball was snapped.  Not 20 second before that.

Do you think the 1000lbs of flesh divined between 3 guys in front of him were dancing around for 20 seconds? There was no open A gap in this pic, there was no open A gap when it was snapped. A shoulder width distance between any combination of Vea, Suh, or McClendon is not an open A gap. An open A gap would be if one of those guys just decided to walk off the field before the snap.


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[greenwichjetfan]

15 minutes ago, Greenseed4 said:

A snap of the A-gap shows that this play call is probably effective with (1) the starting Center (not Feeny), (2) a people-moving OG (not LDT), (3) more experience running the play (i.e., knowing the LBs are going to rush the gap, use of cadence, timing, and leverage to win the short yards). 

A veteran QB gets this first down.
A tenured play caller is going to factor in the personnel and and know to not call this play. 

This play is a reminder that our OC is also in his first year, and will have growing pains. 

1) A QB sneak - whether as an option or as the actual call should never have been part of the equation on 4th and 2 given all of the circumstances surrounding the OL, the Bucs DL, and our proven inability to gain short yardage on QB sneaks dating back to the preseason. 
2) If for whatever forsaken reason LaFleur felt absolutely necessary to call a play where the QB sneak was an option, he should have communicated to Zach in the affirmative that in no way should he be sneaking the ball, and that he needs to hand it off to Braxton.
3) Even if the handoff had occurred, Braxton was visibly injured prior to the 4th down play.

The fact that you have to play this many games to try to prove the call could have been effective is evidence enough that it was a bad call. 

I've already responded too many times to people in this thread, so I'll leave with this:

I'm not sure why people are having such issue with me calling out a bad play call when I see it. Go back and search my history. I'm one of the few guys who defended LaFleur early in the season when Wilson was sh*tting the bed, and I've consistently been one of the first to praise him. I love the guy and am stoked that we finally have a progressive mind at OC who also seems to have a pulse on calling games. All of that said, that QB sneak option was just a bad play call from him. Bad calls happen from time to time, but hopefully this specific scenario never does again because he's learned from it. 

 

[neckdemon]

34 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Option B was a sneak. The play called was the Jet Sweep according  to Saleh in the post game interview.  

whatever the problem is there should have been NO option b in that spot.

[UnknownJetFan]

44 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

The guy called a Hell of a game against a pretty good D. 

What we are seeing is that when the QB can run things properly then the O ML’s system will work with even backups. We’ll need this going forward since we always get so many injuries.

[UntouchableCrew]

Early in the season I was worried LaFleuer was in over his head.

Honestly, he's won me over big time. I can't think of any other Jets OC in history where I said "that's a great call" or "what a creative play design" multiple times over several games.

Far from perfect but I think he's done a good job. When he's had respectable QB play the offense has been pretty good. In particular it does seem like the running game, his bread and butter, has gotten much better over the course of the season as the OL comes into their own a bit.

[chirorob]

32 minutes ago, section314 said:

That's why you use another TO. Leave no grey area. It was only the game.?

100%

Communicate so there is no questions, especially with such a young team

[Barry McCockinner]

Just now, UntouchableCrew said:

Early in the season I was worried LaFleuer was in over his head.

Honestly, he's won me over big time. I can't think of any other Jets OC in history where I said "that's a great call" or "what a creative play design" multiple times over several games.

Far from perfect but I think he's done a good job. When he's had respectable QB play the offense has been pretty good. In particular it does seem like the running game, his bread and butter, has gotten much better over the course of the season as the OL comes into their own a bit.

I think early in the season was more Zach being in over his head than anything.

[FidelioJet]

It's clear he's creative and calls a good game.

I'm interested to see him evolve as games start to matter.  Does he get more conservative?  

It'll be fun to watch - but he's clearly, to me, the real deal and excited we have him.

 

[UntouchableCrew]

3 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I think early in the season was more Zach being in over his head than anything.

I agree. That was the whole point of my post, lol. That when the QB play has been competent the offense looks good.

[UntouchableCrew]

26 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 

You have no idea what you’re talking about. None. Play calls all have secondary options for a QB to check off to. All of them do. It’s common sense for the QB at the line to see if the called play is good or if the alternate play is a better option. Basically what you’re saying is the coaching staff should have said “hey Zach, just to be sure you’re not stupid enough to realize the QB sneak option built into this play is not good on 4th and 2 right?” In which case you’re right, he was stupid enough to think it was and therefore the coaches should have accounted for his stupidity.


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I agree with this. 

Saleh said LaFleur should have made it clear to Zach but frankly this is just a case of Zach being an idiot and not thinking for himself.

Regardless of the look of the front 7 you don't QB sneak on 4th and 2. It's unfair to blame the coaching staff. Wilson was a dope.

[More Cowbell]

22 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 

Do you think the 1000lbs of flesh divined between 3 guys in front of him were dancing around for 20 seconds? There was no open A gap in this pic, there was no open A gap when it was snapped. A shoulder width distance between any combination of Vea, Suh, or McClendon is not an open A gap. An open A gap would be if one of those guys just decided to walk off the field before the snap.


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If only Brown was a defensive  lineman

[FidelioJet]

3 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I agree. That was the whole point of my post, lol. That when the QB play has been competent the offense looks good.

It's not that simple.  The OL in those first few weeks were downright awful. 

While I mostly agree with what you're saying and QB is the most important factor...

 Just point to those first 3 of 4 games - I have really never seen an OL as porous as what the Jets were putting out there early in the season.

[UntouchableCrew]

Just now, FidelioJet said:

It's not that simple.  The OL in those first few weeks were downright awful. 

While I mostly agree with what you're saying and QB is the most important factor...

 Just point to those first 3 of 4 games - I have really never seen an OL as porous as what the Jets were putting out there early in the season.

I don't agree with that.

It's true for Week 1. Carolina whipped us up front and Zach was actually pretty good in that game.

After that it was primarily Zach. Against the Pats Week 2 we ran the ball on them well. Outgained them in yards per play. Zach just gave them the game with atrocious picks.

[FidelioJet]

11 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I think early in the season was more Zach being in over his head than anything.

it was an entirely new system and a complicated one at that..and rookies starting everywhere. 

Yes, Zach was certainly part of the problem but not the only one - the whole thing was a mess.  But it's clearly gotten better and fun to see progress from everyone.

[Origen]

43 minutes ago, Greenseed4 said:

A snap of the A-gap shows that this play call is probably effective with (1) the starting Center (not Feeny), (2) a people-moving OG (not LDT), (3) more experience running the play (i.e., knowing the LBs are going to rush the gap, use of cadence, timing, and leverage to win the short yards). 

A veteran QB gets this first down.
A tenured play caller is going to factor in the personnel and and know to not call this play. 

This play is a reminder that our OC is also in his first year, and will have growing pains. 

My thought was if no goal line D, hot call is the sneak.  Just a bad read by a Rookie in an overall great game.

[FidelioJet]

20 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

1) A QB sneak - whether as an option or as the actual call should never have been part of the equation on 4th and 2 given all of the circumstances surrounding the OL, the Bucs DL, and our proven inability to gain short yardage on QB sneaks dating back to the preseason. 
2) If for whatever forsaken reason LaFleur felt absolutely necessary to call a play where the QB sneak was an option, he should have communicated to Zach in the affirmative that in no way should he be sneaking the ball, and that he needs to hand it off to Braxton.
3) Even if the handoff had occurred, Braxton was visibly injured prior to the 4th down play.

 

 

This is where you need an F-ing HC.  

He needed to step in there and say there's no option here etc...he has a young OC - but the buck stops with him.  

It was clearly his call to go for it - and I'm sure he discussed the play with the OC (at least I hope he did) he needed to know better.

Now, I like Saleh, but more than anyone else - this was on him.  

And after the game he needed to take unequivocal responsibility.