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Van Roten vs. LDT


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7 minutes ago, ScouserJet said:

Hate to sound positive about the Jets, again, but just really satisfying to see the FO, Saleh, whatever alll saw that Van Roten was struggling or not doing enough, and we've replaced him with a solid athlete, who's been great so far.

Love it when you can be positive about Jets doing the right things for a change.

If there’s one thing this CS has done right this year, it’s they have not let struggling players continue to start.  No more keeping Herndon or Trumaine Johnson or Desir type players on the field just because they are the so-called “starters” on the depth chart.  Our roster is still not good, but at least we are letting young guys play and making adjustments where necessary.

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If there’s one thing this CS has done right this year, it’s they have not let struggling players continue to start.  No more keeping Herndon or Trumaine Johnson or Desir type players on the field just because they are the so-called “starters” on the depth chart.  Our roster is still not good, but at least we are letting young guys play and making adjustments where necessary.
It started in training camp when Echols earned the starting job as a rookie

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38 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

GVR was a major problem. 

Coming into this year with GVR as the incumbent was an irresponsible choice by Douglas.

I'm curious whether it's an 'addition by subtraction' situation with the benching of GVR or genuinely stellar play by LDT.

LDT likely going to cost a fair bit to retain?

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56 minutes ago, Jet Life said:

Crazy how one awful guy pretty much tanked the whole line 

Not just him, as a unit they were learning a new scheme. Continuity will be key going into next year. That's why the undersized Linderbaum isn't a priority in the draft.

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

GVR was a major problem. 

Coming into this year with GVR as the incumbent was an irresponsible choice by Douglas.

This is just false. See below.

44 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

Cameron Clark, Alex Lewis, and Dan Feeney were all supposed to be competing for that spot.  Clark had a bad injury, Lewis went AWOL, and Feeney lost out on the job.

I think Douglas took the right approach.  He just didn't find the right guy (Laurent Duvernay-Tardif) until later in the year.

 

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36 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

 

I'm curious whether it's an 'addition by subtraction' situation with the benching of GVR or genuinely stellar play by LDT.

LDT likely going to cost a fair bit to retain?

I think GVR is bad.  

LDT seems to be competent - which is a major step up and okay for a RG.  Not everyone needs to be an all-pro.

IMO we should pay both LTD and Moses.  McGovern, LTD, AVT, Moses and Fant is a solid starting line.  And should be more than sufficient to be successful.  If Becton gives you anything even better - but I wouldn't count on it.

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9 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

This is just false. See below.

 

GVR was the incumbent and likely starter.

Clark couldn't even make the game day roster, assuming he would take the job from GVR would have been wishful thinking at best.

Alex Lewis? Come on....

Just because there were other guys doesn't make them better.

GVR was the guy they had penciled in as the starter and that was a mistake.  That's all I'm saying. 

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GVT is under contract for $3mm+n next year.  LDT is not but will likely cost $6mm+n to retain.

Feeney was a complete mess up until this week but appears to be able to man the C spot if he has two solid guards on either side of him.  He is also not under contract for next year.  GVR could not man the RG spot with CM and MM flanking him.  

It seems like the right answer to me is to extend Fant and CM a year or so, draft another OT who can play RG, and then go into 2022 with Fant, AVT, CM, Draft pick (or Clark, or Samia, or someone else), MB (or Draft pick), with then PS guys getting promoted hopefully.   Paying LDT as a RG allows provides flexibility if Becton stumbles.  

Look at the Bucs.  They do not have backup OL making $3mm+ year.   Their OL6 makes $1.1mm.  

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32 minutes ago, Claymation said:

Not just him, as a unit they were learning a new scheme. Continuity will be key going into next year. That's why the undersized Linderbaum isn't a priority in the draft.

Honest question. Isn't speed and agility important in the C position in this scheme? I would have thought a smart and quick C like Linderbaum would be a great fit, he doesnt seem to have an issue with power (competition notwithstanding)? 

Great post by the OP too - love when math helps the world seem a little more clear.

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

GVR was a major problem. 

Coming into this year with GVR as the incumbent was an irresponsible choice by Douglas.

I think it was more that he figured the best among 4-5 players should've been adequate.

Then the summer hit. Clark got injured in early August, then Lewis retired in mid-August, multi-year starter Feeney looked lost in his initial action, and the king of the dipshits who emerged was GVR. That doesn't even factor the potential of late addition Moses (or Fant) moving to RG, had Becton stayed on the field. Doubtful they'd have continued to ride GVR the whole season while keeping Moses on the bench.

Most playoff teams get by with 1-2 OLmen who aren't notably heralded or expensive and perform more than adequately (allowing the team to commit those resources elsewhere). The Rams have 5 OLmen playing well together, and not one was a 1st round pick nor are any of them expensive veterans. This was just a failed attempt to replicate 1/5 of that: to fill the position without requiring an investment of major FA dollars or a high draft pick.

Pretty good save midseason by picking up a dirt-cheap ($1.5MM), post-restructure LDT for nothing, even if it was a bit late. I don't know that KC was shopping him earlier, or what they were asking if they were. 

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5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think it was more that he figured the best among 4-5 players should've been adequate.

Then the summer hit. Clark got injured in early August, then Lewis retired in mid-August, multi-year starter Feeney looked lost in his initial action, and the king of the dipsh*ts who emerged was GVR. That doesn't even factor the potential of late addition Moses (or Fant) moving to RG, had Becton stayed on the field. Doubtful they'd have continued to ride GVR the whole season while keeping Moses on the bench.

Most playoff teams get by with 1-2 OLmen who aren't notably heralded or expensive and perform more than adequately (allowing the team to commit those resources elsewhere). The Rams have 5 OLmen playing well together, and not one was a 1st round pick nor are any of them expensive veterans. This was just a failed attempt to replicate 1/5 of that: to fill the position without requiring an investment of major FA dollars or a high draft pick.

Pretty good save midseason by picking up a dirt-cheap ($1.5MM), post-restructure LDT for nothing, even if it was a bit late. I don't know that KC was shopping him earlier, or what they were asking if they were. 

I get it, but when I look at the other options - I can't help but see GVR was still penciled in as the starter.  I believe he was at the top of the depth chart to start camp. 

If you're crossing your fingers and simply hoping some other garbage is going to beat him out - It's a bad move.  I'm not calling for JD's head - it was a mistake coming into the season with him as your starter.  That is all...

Btw...I'm with you, I do not think you need studs at every position on the OL - someone simply adequate would be fine - GVR was not that.

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I was watching the news last night and they did a story on a player who earned his MD and had become a practicing physician. He was wearing a Jets hat and I was dumbfounded. Didn’t recognize him, thought it might be a former player. Turned out it was Duvernay-Tardif. I had no idea. 

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6 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Choice? GVR was supposed to be third on the depth chart behind Alex Lewis and Cam Clark. 

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that to be the case.

Go look at depth charts to start camp.

Clark couldn't even make the active roster last year - and was at the bottom of the depth chart.

Look, I'm not sure why I'm getting into so much of this over Greg Van Roten -

He wasn't a good player and was the best the player at his position for the Jets.

If you want to say Cam Clark or Alex Lewis would have beaten him out - I won't argue.

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27 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

GVR was the incumbent and likely starter.

Clark couldn't even make the game day roster, assuming he would take the job from GVR would have been wishful thinking at best.

Alex Lewis? Come on....

Just because there were other guys doesn't make them better.

GVR was the guy they had penciled in as the starter and that was a mistake.  That's all I'm saying. 

I don't agree.  I think GVR was the floor.  They brought in Feeney who had 41 starts at G and had started 16 at C in 2020 for the Chargers.  Cameron Clark was moving to G from T.  He was probably a long shot, but also probably the one they wanted to win the job.  Alex Lewis had 9 starts in 2020 and 12 in 2019 after coming over from the Ravens.  Yes he was on the NFI list at the end of 2020, but I think that most of us thought that was from a dispute with Gase.  The fact that they hung on to him and let Gase go made some think he was expected to take the position.  He took a pay cut, but had 2022 voided presumably trying to get more money off a decent year. 

None of them is Faneca, but they had guys with lots of starts and some with upside.  It's a pretty big stretch to act like it was negligence to go into the season with these guys.  It was a mistake in that it didn't seem to work out, but if that is your criteria then it was a mistake to sign Lawson. Sometimes things don't work out. 

Becton doesn't get hurt and we are probably whining about wasting money on Moses or he starts practicing at G.  You try to cover yourself.  Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't.  I am much more concerned with going into the season with what we had at LB, but I guess these guys don't care about that and expected to play dime anyway.

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21 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

How did we get a capable starting guard from KC for Daniel Brown?!!! And Brown is back on the Jets right now! Douglas really is something else when it comes to these trades 

It was not quite as brilliant as it looked.  KC signed Thuney and drafted Trey Smith, and also have Kyle Long.  LDT was not going to play in KC.   KC was able to free up cap space to carry forward to next year to unload a player that was not going to play, while getting a depth TE who obviously did not work out.  It was win/win for both teams (unlike the Jamal Adams trade).  

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1 hour ago, ryu79 said:

Honest question. Isn't speed and agility important in the C position in this scheme? I would have thought a smart and quick C like Linderbaum would be a great fit, he doesnt seem to have an issue with power (competition notwithstanding)? 

Great post by the OP too - love when math helps the world seem a little more clear.

He will be facing DT and NT that are 30 lbs heavier.

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