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Quadruple Down on OL


Dunnie
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On 1/10/2022 at 10:55 AM, More Cowbell said:

Just a question, in 2 years, when Becton needs a new contract (figuring he plays well of course), and 3 years, AVT, the 4 years with the two you want to draft, how do we pay Zach, Moore, Carter, and any of the DB's we decide to keep? You can't  spend your entire cap in one area. 

The good teams seem to always find a way to keep their good players.  

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3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

The good teams seem to always find a way to keep their good players.  

He does make a good point. If your team is made up of first rounders it’s impossible to pay them all. It’s important to hit on some 4-6th rounders as well, or UFA. Looks like we have this past year as well.

JD needs to build in the trenches in the defensive side as well. Would have been awesome if Lawson was healthy and we could have gotten a bit more penetration this year. 

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23 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

The Jets knew they were taking Wilson before training camp. Regardless Wilson looked the part all through all that stuff and it was a poor indicator. Will be no different for Becton  

 

I don't agree that he looked the part all throughout camp, and believed we should have had a veteran there.

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17 minutes ago, Wit said:

He does make a good point. If your team is made up of first rounders it’s impossible to pay them all. It’s important to hit on some 4-6th rounders as well, or UFA. Looks like we have this past year as well.

JD needs to build in the trenches in the defensive side as well. Would have been awesome if Lawson was healthy and we could have gotten a bit more penetration this year. 

The best case scenario is all of these first rounders hit, we have stars everywhere and we'll have to lose some to FA's..

What's more likely is some will hit some will miss - and we'll able to afford to keep the good ones.

Point is, I think the problem he's referencing would be fantastic news.

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1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

The best case scenario is all of these first rounders hit, we have stars everywhere and we'll have to lose some to FA's..

What's more likely is some will hit some will miss - and we'll able to afford to keep the good ones.

Point is, I think the problem he's referencing would be fantastic news.

Yes, I agree. The defense was so bad this year that it’s hard for me to say that we should spend the top four picks all in offense, but if the offense is amazing and Zach takes off, the defense is off the field more and plays better with more leads by default. 

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27 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

I don't agree that he looked the part all throughout camp, and believed we should have had a veteran there.

Well then you are probably the only one that thought  that because everyone here seemed to over the moon with how he looked. Mind you I didn't  give it much weight because it was preseason and camp

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8 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Well then you are probably the only one that thought  that because everyone here seemed to over the moon with how he looked. Mind you I didn't  give it much weight because it was preseason and camp

I was certainly not the only one.  There were many who felt he wasn't ready.  Those voices got quieter as he improved over the course of camp, but there was nothing about his college career, or camp, that suggested there should not have been any competition.  He was always a 'high-upside project.'

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11 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Well then you are probably the only one that thought  that because everyone here seemed to over the moon with how he looked. Mind you I didn't  give it much weight because it was preseason and camp

I remember Burrow & Chase were reported to have a poor camp - kinda screwed me in fantasy, since I really liked both in July, then read those reports and cooled off them a bit. They went on to, of course, dominate the NFL.

But if this is about Becton - I'm legit scared that's a bust considering the Pauline rumors and the extra 9-13 weeks he missed post injury. 

Only the organization knows that, though. I feel like we'll be in the dark about that until draft day. If we draft a tackle anywhere in the first two rounds - they're done with Becky. 

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1 hour ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

I remember Burrow & Chase were reported to have a poor camp - kinda screwed me in fantasy, since I really liked both in July, then read those reports and cooled off them a bit. They went on to, of course, dominate the NFL.

But if this is about Becton - I'm legit scared that's a bust considering the Pauline rumors and the extra 9-13 weeks he missed post injury. 

Only the organization knows that, though. I feel like we'll be in the dark about that until draft day. If we draft a tackle anywhere in the first two rounds - they're done with Becky. 

I'll be shocked if we take another OL high

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4 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

The Pats haven't  been on the decline until last season

I meant the players on decline.

Usually he dumps guys just when they're about to fall apart.  Rarely do the guys he let go, go on to be good on other teams.

That's all I'm saying - he's not losing superstars - he's losing guys he's okay with losing.

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4 hours ago, Matt39 said:

JD’s job security depends on the Jets being able to score touchdowns. He’s pumped a lot into the line already. Skill positions are the biggest need in this draft. The defense can come later. Get some depth on offense for once.

His job security depends on the Jets winning games.

I would argue that investing any first or second round picks in the offensive line is a misuse of resources, unless the Jets have determined that Becton is done in New York.

The Chiefs effectively replaced their offensive line after the meltdown in the last Super Bowl against Bowles' Buccaneers defence (Arians pretty much leaves it to Todd to run the defence). They were in a position where they could afford to invest significant free agency and draft resources into the one position group. The Jets are not, because of the deficiencies elsewhere on the roster, particularly on the defence, where the Jets were giving up points (29.6 points per game, 32nd in the league), yards per play (5.9 yards per play), 28 passing touchdowns opposed to seven interceptions, 7.1 net yards gained per pass attempt (32nd in the league), 28 rushing touchdowns, 4.5 yards per rushing attempt (equal 27th in the league), and a whole bunch of other stats that suggest that the Jets had one of the three worst - if not the worst - defence in the league.

I hate the fact that the Jets have spent a lot of premium resources on the defence in the last few years, and have little to show for it (except for a decent interior defensive lineman), but I think that when Douglas sits down to evaluate the roster post-season, he's going to realise that the defence needs an infusion of premium talent in order for it to carry out Saleh's defence.

If the draft falls a particular way, the Jets might look at taking a wide receiver in the first round, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Jets end up using three of their first four picks on defence. 

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On 1/10/2022 at 9:17 AM, JiFapono said:

Why would you take that sarcastically?  When healthy, it's by far the best unit on the team.  Head and shoulders better than every other unit.  Legit, not close.  Bring back Becton/Fant/AVT/LDT/Moses/McGovern and the OL is once again the strength of the team.  If you want to upgrade an IOL spot, ok cool, I I wont argue but I would absolutely not use a 1st round pick on OL.  It's the least of the Jets priorities.  

 

Ok so for one quarter game this year they were the best unit .. got it.

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12 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Ok so for one quarter game this year they were the best unit .. got it.

one quarter game?  Having a hard time quantifying that one but the unit was always playing well sans Van Rotten and as soon as LDT signed, it was rock solid.  The bottom line is, if you had to put together a list of the top 10 players on this team, Fant, AVT and Moses would be on that list, easily w/ McGovern pushing for it as well.  So again, best unit on the team and not the priority of the offseason.  Maybe another IOL, cool, that makes sense but to quadruple down?  Hell no.  Way too many holes on this team you'd be ignoring all in effort to improve the strongest unit on the team.  You're high and I'm jealous. 

 

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NYJ needs to improve the OL the GM's job is to do it without exclusively using 1st rd picks.   

Most of the OL stars in the league are mid-rounders, especially the interior OL.   Let's see JD do his job and  find a starter somewhere other than rd. 1.   

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Generally agree with your sentiment. Build a wall around Zach, go from there.

As part of it Jets should add the best center in the draft.

Parcells had Bart Oates and paid thru the noise for Kevin Mawae. Both led stout o-lines and equally strong rushing attacks & offenses. Chiefs drafted Creed Humphrey after their o-line's abysmal SB performance - voila, KC's offense is the KC offense again. Bills added Morse several off seasons ago helping their offense take off. Just a few examples.

Get a center JD-Saleh, and sleep well at night.

 

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14 hours ago, Aussie Jet said:

I hate the fact that the Jets have spent a lot of premium resources on the defence in the last few years, and have little to show for it (except for a decent interior defensive lineman), but I think that when Douglas sits down to evaluate the roster post-season, he's going to realise that the defence needs an infusion of premium talent in order for it to carry out Saleh's defence.

If the draft falls a particular way, the Jets might look at taking a wide receiver in the first round, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Jets end up using three of their first four picks on defence. 

I agree with all of this.  

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On 1/10/2022 at 8:38 AM, Dunnie said:


I dont care about DL or Edge nearly as much. Like QB .. we need to find the guys that can dominate on OL... Vera Tucker is for real ... that about it.
 
I say take every goddam OL player in the fing draft and keep only the best.
 
Use our treasure trove of cap space to fill in the rest in FA.
 
Obviously i am being snarky .. but my sentiment is real.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
 
 
 

You can at least present targets at our draft positions that would make sense for the roster next year. Assuming the top 3 picks are Neal, Thib., and Hutch....Are you talking about drafting Cross at 4? Ekwonu? Then Linderbaum at 10? or Green? and who in Rd. 2? Kinnard? Kirkland?

And are we letting Moses walk? Not extending Fant after his stellar play at LT? Whats the plan with Becton and McGovern? 

You have to have a plan. lol. 

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15 minutes ago, McNeil said:

Generally agree with your sentiment. Build a wall around Zach, go from there.

As part of it Jets should add the best center in the draft.

Parcells had Bart Oates and paid thru the noise for Kevin Mawae. Both led stout o-lines and equally strong rushing attacks & offenses. Chiefs drafted Creed Humphrey after their o-line's abysmal SB performance - voila, KC's offense is the KC offense again. Bills added Morse several off seasons ago helping their offense take off. Just a few examples.

Get a center JD-Saleh, and sleep well at night.

 

KC also stole Trey Smith in the 6th round last year. That one still stings with all the 5th rounders JD had last year...but of course, the whole league passed on Smith for 5 full rounds, despite the fact that he was totally healthy and dominant his senior year, so... I guess they got lucky there.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Wit said:

He does make a good point. If your team is made up of first rounders it’s impossible to pay them all. It’s important to hit on some 4-6th rounders as well, or UFA. Looks like we have this past year as well.

JD needs to build in the trenches in the defensive side as well. Would have been awesome if Lawson was healthy and we could have gotten a bit more penetration this year. 

If we drafted an OL in the 6th round who ends up being a HOFer, wouldn't we still have to pay the guy big $$ in his 2nd contract despite his draft position?  Or is the idea that we need to constantly cycle in new OL or else we'll have to pay too much for that position group?  

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14 hours ago, Aussie Jet said:

His job security depends on the Jets winning games.

I would argue that investing any first or second round picks in the offensive line is a misuse of resources, unless the Jets have determined that Becton is done in New York.

The Chiefs effectively replaced their offensive line after the meltdown in the last Super Bowl against Bowles' Buccaneers defence (Arians pretty much leaves it to Todd to run the defence). They were in a position where they could afford to invest significant free agency and draft resources into the one position group. The Jets are not, because of the deficiencies elsewhere on the roster, particularly on the defence, where the Jets were giving up points (29.6 points per game, 32nd in the league), yards per play (5.9 yards per play), 28 passing touchdowns opposed to seven interceptions, 7.1 net yards gained per pass attempt (32nd in the league), 28 rushing touchdowns, 4.5 yards per rushing attempt (equal 27th in the league), and a whole bunch of other stats that suggest that the Jets had one of the three worst - if not the worst - defence in the league.

I hate the fact that the Jets have spent a lot of premium resources on the defence in the last few years, and have little to show for it (except for a decent interior defensive lineman), but I think that when Douglas sits down to evaluate the roster post-season, he's going to realise that the defence needs an infusion of premium talent in order for it to carry out Saleh's defence.

If the draft falls a particular way, the Jets might look at taking a wide receiver in the first round, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Jets end up using three of their first four picks on defence. 

JD has been evaluating the roster all season. Who knows what he is planning on doing- there's more than one way to skin a cat- however, there are a few things that are clear. 

Offense:

-The Jets 'hit' on a few players in the last draft. Moore, Carter, AVT...and to an extent Becton. I know there is uncertainty surrounding his injury and rumors about his motivation. But I think JD believes they've got a good one in Becton. And they took a QB last year #2 overall. As far as the draft, I think while they still need to continue to add on offense, JD recognizes a number of pieces are already there. 

-The Jets invested on the O-line and at the WR position in FA the past couple of seasons with players still under contract next year. Fant, Davis, McGovern specifically come to mind. It may not sound like a lot. But all 3 be coming back s starters next season.

-There are very specific holes on the offense which need to be addressed. To me those are clear. 'X' WR, TE and RG. Its really as simple as that. You can say we need two TEs or two WRs or another OT because Becton can't be relied on and another RB. But the main 3 positions that need to be addressed are those. We can do that through the draft, FA, or both. We will almost certainly use both avenues to plug those holes. 

Defense:

-Its CLEAR the Jets need another pass rusher. Even if Lawson comes back, the Jets need more pass rush help for Salehs defense to work. Again- they can do it via FA or the Draft. Odds are they do it via the draft because of the depth at the position in this years draft. Lots of talent to choose from. 

-Its CLEAR the Jets need Safety help. Same as above. 

-Much like hitting on some key offensive players, the Jets hit on some late round CBs. I think this will impact greatly how they approach the draft and FA. Echols, Hall, Carter II (and maybe even Pinnock) look like they could develop into really nice players. There's a good chance the Jets simply leave the CB core alone and let them develop- competing against each other in the offseason. 

-The Jets had plans to develop LBs but those fell through in large part due to injuries. Unless they find real value somewhere in the draft or FA, I think they will give Nas and Sherwood another shot to develop next year. I know people are all in on Dean or Lloyd. I love both prospects. However, unless they plummet and the Jets find themselves with great value they just can't pass on (lets say in Rd. 2)...I highly doubt they draft either one. A FA addition makes a lot more sense.    

 

SO- My conclusion is that, as far as MAJOR moves go, on offense the Jets will target an 'X' WR, a TE and a RG. FA or the draft but probably both. On defense they will target S, Edge (draft) and OLB (FA).  

Douglas will draft best player available with the first 2 picks, he's not going to reach. So I think it will be an Edge and OT/OG. Right now I have that being Karlaftis/Ojabo and Ekwonu. JMHO. 

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I think the Jets strategy should be pretty straightforward and mirror the previous two years.  Sign a guy (or two) and draft a guy (or two).

The big additions early in JD's tenure were free agents like Fant and McGovern (both good signings IMO).  He followed that by using his first ever Draft pick on Becton.

Last year he adds Morgan Moses in free agency and drafts AVT.  Two very good moves.

Don't stop there, Joe!  The Jets need to solidify the OT spot (either bring back Moses or draft an OT early).  If they do sign Moses so that the Becton/Fant/Moses triumvirate continues then I'd turn the Draft attention to Center or OG.

Bottom line - Despite using reasonably large FA $$ and two 1st round picks over the past two years, don't stand pat.  Continue the "Sign one, Draft one" approach.  We're trying to build an offense around a young QB and AVT showed how valuable good run-blocking can be in this new wide/outside zone scheme that sprung loose a 4th round pick in Michael Carter multiple times this year.

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On 1/12/2022 at 12:39 PM, PepPep said:

-The Jets invested on the O-line and at the WR position in FA the past couple of seasons with players still under contract next year. Fant, Davis, McGovern specifically come to mind. It may not sound like a lot. But all 3 be coming back s starters next season.

McGovern is substandard. He should be cut and replaced with a substantial upgrade. All genuine contenders have good centers. The Jets don't and it's just one of several reasons they weren't a contender this past season.

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16 minutes ago, McNeil said:

McGovern is substandard. He should be cut and replaced with a substantial upgrade. All genuine contenders have good centers. The Jets don't and it's just one of several reasons they weren't a contender this past season.

This is just not true. McGovern is avg+. Adding a high draft pick center would be a marginal improvement, at best. Many more places where Jets can significantly improve their starters.

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Rex/Nacho in '09/'10 worked so well due to a top Oline and Run game plus a top Defense. Our offense kept teams off balance with our run game and play action. Our defense (once called a band of lunatics) would mill about the line seemingly aimlessly until the ball was snapped, then 4 or 5 would attack the QB from whatever spot they were in and other 6 or 7 would drop back. Always different...heck even Revis blitzed off the edge from time to time. 

I miss those days!

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On 1/10/2022 at 8:40 AM, TuscanyTile2 said:

It's possible Neal will be available at #4.  Linderbaum will almost certainly be as well (though I doubt he lasts until #10).

I know it’s that time of year where everybody gets picked apart. I listened to a pod where they said Neal was soft, also not great technique- opined he’d be the 5th ranked tackle the year Becton came out.

They liked Ekwonu a lot- great demeanor and nasty streak…but then said he’d be a better guard.  Made me sad.

Cant wait till Free agency. I’m thinking it makes sense to plug up all the offensive holes with the cap dollars. It would be nice to get some veterans mixed in with the young offensive guys. Agree with the OP that everything should start with the offense.

Hoping forThibs/Hutch.

Also now thinking that CB may be a good option at 10 with value/draft slot. 

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In a perfect world the Jets would have someone to decent to step in if Becton gets hurt or stumbles at even RT, and someone waiting in the wings to replace GVR/LDT.   But they may not.  In a perfect world, Ross P, Samia and the Ts could step in and be the quality depth, and maybe Samia can start at RG.  And even if we like Fant and CM, they are only under contract for a year.  

So if arguably the best player in the draft plays T/G and we can draft him at 4 and have him under contract 5-6 years, that is not a bad thing.  It is a shame that we have to apply the resource to the OL again, but this is not the last draft with Chase, Waddle and Pitts being there at 4.  In that draft you take the WRs./TEs.  In this draft you take Neal/Okwenu/Cross perhaps, because those could be the best football players there, and despite the prior investments, the Jets still need OL.

We wish Clark the best, but maybe this is the draft where JD starts an OL pipeline for the future.  But I can easily see this being the draft where we draft more LBs, S, TEs, RBs and CB rounds 3 and down and look for OL in FA and at the top of the draft.  

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4 hours ago, David Harris said:

but then said he’d be a better guard.  Made me sad.

I would not be too sad. I have been saying from the get go that Ekwonu is a Guard at the NFL level, albeit a versatile one. However, if the consensus is that he is a Guard, he could very well be there at 10. A combination of Thib/Hutch and Ekwonu would not be such a bad haul IMO. 

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6 hours ago, McNeil said:

McGovern is substandard. He should be cut and replaced with a substantial upgrade. All genuine contenders have good centers. The Jets don't and it's just one of several reasons they weren't a contender this past season.

Cut someone who’s top 10 at his position because In your mind he’s not good and replace him with….. who exactly?  Yea create another hole for no reason whatsoever. Great idea. 

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5 hours ago, FootballLove said:

Rex/Nacho in '09/'10 worked so well due to a top Oline and Run game plus a top Defense. Our offense kept teams off balance with our run game and play action. Our defense (once called a band of lunatics) would mill about the line seemingly aimlessly until the ball was snapped, then 4 or 5 would attack the QB from whatever spot they were in and other 6 or 7 would drop back. Always different...heck even Revis blitzed off the edge from time to time. 

I miss those days!

Think about how the nfl was 10+ years ago and compare it to now. What differences do you see? 
 

The rules favor the passing attack much more now and wrs/TEs get open at a faster rate. What does that mean? Guys getting open faster = less time needed to block = having a dominant ol is less important 

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On 1/10/2022 at 8:42 AM, FidelioJet said:

We need guys that can get open and catch more than anything else.

 

WR's and TE's should be the priority this off-season.  More than anything else...

Corners cannot cover anyone for more that 2-3 seconds. A beast OL that leaves your QB untouched is also a means of getting receivers open.

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