Every Throw from Zach Wilson Week 18 vs Bills

[Smashmouth]

Just now, Peace Frog said:

Link?

Right Here ?

Ever wonder why Drew Brees had those insane Completion percentages ? Because some years he had close to 200 passes to his RB's but you know in Jet land that's just dink and dunk crap

 

[The Crusher]

4 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Fidelio my biggest concern with Zach is his accuracy and that's something you either have or you don't. I'm not sure how you teach an NFL QB how to hit RB's in stride from 5-10 yards out. 

Decision making can be learned and I think he has Improved in that category but the accuracy issues are very troubling to me because that's not something you should be learning at this stage. The easy things are what a rookie should be falling back on .Right ?

Zach actually had accuracy but I feel the speed of the game made him think rather than just play. If they never had it I think your right they likely don’t develop it. Though I did see Josh Allen all of a sudden handle his accuracy issues once they signed Diggs. Obviously Zach likely never get to his level but he is an example off accuracy improving. 

[Peace Frog]

3 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Right Here ?

Ever wonder why Drew Brees had those insane Completion percentages ? Because some years he had close to 200 passes to his RB's but you know in Jet land that's just dink and dunk crap

 

Ahhhh the old "let's compare a HOF QB and likely one of the top 10-15 QBs all time to a 22 year old playing in his 14th game" argument.

Well done.

 

[Smashmouth]

5 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Ahhhh the old "let's compare a HOF QB and likely one of the top 10-15 QBs all time to a 22 year old playing in his 14th game" argument.

Well done.

 

WTF are you talking about ? I was not comparing Drew to Zach in any way shape or form. 

[Peace Frog]

1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

WTF are you talking about ? I was not comparing Drew to Zach in any way shape or form. 

No, of course not.  In a thread about how Zach is leaving plays on the field you mention Drew Brees checking down to running backs for his lofty career comp %.

No comparison there at all.

Was just a metaphor I'm guessing.

Don't get mad at me, just try to remember what you wrote.

You know, like how you can't remember an NFL QB having net 55 yards passing when in the last few weeks an NFL QB had negative 10 net passing yards and the best rookie NFL QB had 19 net passing yards.

 

[FidelioJet]

9 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Fidelio my biggest concern with Zach is his accuracy and that's something you either have or you don't. I'm not sure how you teach an NFL QB how to hit RB's in stride from 5-10 yards out. 

Decision making can be learned and I think he has Improved in that category but the accuracy issues are very troubling to me because that's not something you should be learning at this stage. The easy things are what a rookie should be falling back on .Right ?

Fair concern and one I share.  What happened in the middle of the season with the missing of the most basic throws was worrisome for sure.

With that said - it wasn't a concern in his past.  I think his feet weren't great, but it was more he was playing scared, pressing and steering the ball instead of throwing it.  

We're talking about misses that high school QB's need to make - something was going on in his head that had him playing far too tight.  

He seemed to have gotten over that the past few weeks.  Again, I'm not saying it's gone for good - but I have reason to be optimistic that it was mid-season of a rookie year where he simply got too deep into his own head - but he did seem to work his way out of it.  

I do believe as the game continues to slow down for him he'll continue to get more accurate.

But to be fair, let's assume I am right and he worked his way through that -  a lingering question has to be - when pressure mounts (big moments of big games) will he tighten up and again start pushing the ball.  We don't have that answer, we don't have a lot of answers....

So again, I agree with you and share your concerns - but where I'll keep coming back to is I saw progress..and real progress - the big question for me is where will that progress end...as long as he continues to get better there is reason for optimism.  Once he stops progressing (and he's not a FQB) that's when I'll start to lose my optimism.  

[PepPep]

On 1/10/2022 at 11:21 AM, Warfish said:

Trading INT's for "Benny Hill" and Sacks is an improvement, of sorts, but it's still not good enough.  

I've never seen an NFL QB do all the "blind man tried to catch a fly ball" spin and backpedal that Zach did on Sunday.

Drop back, properly perform your reads, throw to the open man or throw your man open (something franchise QB's can do), run, or throw it away.

 

There are few QBs that could 'Drop back, properly perform your reads, throw to the open man or throw your man open (something franchise QB's can do), run, or throw it away' with the pressure Zack was facing, the lack of a run game, and none of his receivers getting open. In the end a similar stat line would not be surprising. Sure, a vet QB would have less sacks, having throw it away more. 

[ZachEY]

55 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Let me ask you this ... Do you think a Zach Wilson Mike White Competition would be good for Zach even though we know it probably wont happen ? 

Funny.... teams worry about the psyche of their young QB's in a league where it probably needs to be tested more often than not.

Yes - I'd go further.  I've maintained I'd bring in someone with a track record better than White.  They're not going to.

[slimjasi]

Just now, ZachEY said:

Yes - I'd go further.  I've maintained I'd bring in someone with a track record better than White.  They're not going to.

The bolded is correct. 

 

While I would be all for bringing in Minshew or someone like that, it's not happening. Saleh actually said he wants Flacco back, lol

[The Crusher]

Just now, ZachEY said:

Yes - I'd go further.  I've maintained I'd bring in someone with a track record better than White.  They're not going to.

It’s weird they won’t because Zach had to earn his spot at BYU and obviously that turned out pretty good. Kid seems to rise to his competition, doesn’t seem at all delicate. Looks it, but doesn’t seem it. Biggest thing that separates him and Darnold for me.

[JustInFudge]

38 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Link?

I use this link to watch games and the redzone where you see this play completed every single game by every single QB in the NFL or college, for that matter.  

Original NFL streams | Reddit NFL streams | NFLbite.com

[Peace Frog]

Just now, JiFapono said:

I use this link to watch games and the redzone where you see this play completed every single game by every single QB in the NFL or college, for that matter.  

Original NFL streams | Reddit NFL streams | NFLbite.com

So it's 100%, not 95%.  Except for Zach.  

It's even worse than I thought.  

[JustInFudge]

Just now, Peace Frog said:

So it's 100%, not 95%.  Except for Zach.  

It's even worse than I thought.  

Well, Zach is the 5%.  I assumed we werent including him at that point.

[Peace Frog]

2 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

I use this link to watch games and the redzone where you see this play completed every single game by every single QB in the NFL or college, for that matter.  

Original NFL streams | Reddit NFL streams | NFLbite.com

To be fair, I watch the Red Zone too and they never show incompletions or run-of-the-mill sacks.

But yeah, 100% of the QBs complete that pass, other than Zach.

[JustInFudge]

Just now, Peace Frog said:

But yeah, 100% of the QBs complete that pass, other than Zach.

Agreed.

[Hal N of Provo]

1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

Let me ask you this ... Do you think a Zach Wilson Mike White Competition would be good for Zach even though we know it probably wont happen ? 

Funny.... teams worry about the psyche of their young QB's in a league where it probably needs to be tested more often than not.

So you guys remember all the reports out of camp said Wilson was way better than White?

[Smashmouth]

25 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

No, of course not.  In a thread about how Zach is leaving plays on the field you mention Drew Brees checking down to running backs for his lofty career comp %.

No comparison there at all.

Was just a metaphor I'm guessing.

Don't get mad at me, just try to remember what you wrote.

You know, like how you can't remember an NFL QB having net 55 yards passing when in the last few weeks an NFL QB had negative 10 net passing yards and the best rookie NFL QB had 19 net passing yards.

 

Continue being a troll or an Idiot. I'll let you choose which.. If you can't figure out the context in which I wrote the Drew Brees completion percentage post I can't help ya.

When it comes to the Glennon 24 yard passing game vs Zach 55 yard game I Didn't scour the internet looking for QB's that played that bad but once again you missed the point that no matter what its just plain bad. I also made the statement I didn't remember a QB playing that bad which should have told you and your pee sized brain I certainly didn't search for such a game.

If all you have is picking apart other posts to mean what you think they mean you don't belong in this debate, because quite honestly you contribute nothing to most of the threads I see you in.

 

[Peace Frog]

7 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

 

If all you have is picking apart other posts to mean what you think they mean you don't belong in this debate.

 

You don't get to tell me anything.

YOU brought up Brees.  YOU said you couldn't remember something that happend  2 weeks ago and a month ago.

It's funny you calling me a troll or an idiot.  

[Peace Frog]

3 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

So you guys remember all the reports out of camp said Wilson was way better than White?

He clearly beat out both White and Morgan.  By a mile.  

If the argument is that's not enough competition, that's fair.

But he so much better than Mike White.

[Hal N of Provo]

Just now, Peace Frog said:

He clearly beat out both White and Morgan.  By a mile.  

If the argument is that's not enough competition, that's fair.

But he so much better than Mike White.

There were a couple bad practice days and a rough scrimmage.  Otherwise camp reports were glowing.   He played really well against preseason vanilla.

People would have been calling for coaches heads for not starting him if they didn’t win games without him.  

[Smashmouth]

3 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

You don't get to tell me anything.

YOU brought up Brees.  YOU said you couldn't remember something that happend a 2 weeks ago and a month ago.

It's funny you calling me a troll or an idiot.  

Yep I do get to tell you. 

Funny you mixed up why a guy like Brees had such a high Comp. percentage as a comparison to Zach which is ridiculous.

troll .... I'm guessing you can't really be this stupid.

[FidelioJet]

17 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Yes - I'd go further.  I've maintained I'd bring in someone with a track record better than White.  They're not going to.

They'll have a legit vet in the QB room.  If it's not Flacco it will be someone like that.

Saleh was effusive in his praise of Flacco and how much he helped.

My guess is it's the three of them again next year.

[Warfish]

24 minutes ago, PepPep said:

There are few QBs that could 'Drop back, properly perform your reads, throw to the open man or throw your man open (something franchise QB's can do), run, or throw it away' with the pressure Zack was facing, the lack of a run game, and none of his receivers getting open. In the end a similar stat line would not be surprising.

So I keep hearing.

If you all want to think Zach did pretty much everything as well as it could be done given the circumstances, that's certainly your right.

[Smashmouth]

6 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

He clearly beat out both White and Morgan.  By a mile.  

If the argument is that's not enough competition, that's fair.

But he so much better than Mike White.

He's so much better than White yet he never came close to Whites best game while tripling his playing time. What are you basing this statement on ?

[Spoot-Face]

51 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Fidelio my biggest concern with Zach is his accuracy and that's something you either have or you don't. I'm not sure how you teach an NFL QB how to hit RB's in stride from 5-10 yards out. 

Decision making can be learned and I think he has Improved in that category but the accuracy issues are very troubling to me because that's not something you should be learning at this stage. The easy things are what a rookie should be falling back on .Right ?

Someone can correct me if I"m wrong, but wasn't accuracy one of his strong suits in college? And then in preseason he didn't have any problems with accuracy, and was hitting guys in stride with no issue, IIRC.

IMO, he doesn't have an issue with natural accuracy, a la Hackenberg, who couldn't hit an elephant with a nuke. I think Wilson's problems are more related to not being ready to handle the pressure and speed of the NFL, which is all mental, imo. He panics and that forces him to to rush his mechanics which leads to these bounce passes and throws that are high and/or behind receivers on routine throws that he normally 100% has the physical ability to make in his sleep.

That's, at least, what I'm seeing with my untrained eye. I'm curious if anyone else is seeing the same thing.

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Yep I do get to tell you. 

Funny you mixed up why a guy like Brees had such a high Comp. percentage as a comparison to Zach which is ridiculous.

troll .... I'm guessing you can't really be this stupid.

Breeze's comp. % in his first three years were

55, 60 and 57

I know it's not what you're talking about here - but it's important to recognize.  He didn't hit a 70% comp % until his 10th season.

[Green hat]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

That was only 1 play, he definitely left others plays on the field as well (most QB's do, almost every game, it's part of the business), that still shot he provided, actually proves it perfectly and then you watch it in real time, and he had an eternity by NFL standards.  That ball is completed by 95% of the QB's in the NFL.  And that's ok, no need to lie to yourself about it and go through these silly mental gymnastics.  He was uncomfortable and out of sorts, it happens, hopefully he gets better.  I think he can. 

 

The average release time for an NFL QB is approx. 2.4 seconds. This is from the snap to the throw or pressure/collapse. 2 seconds into this particular play, 55 was in his face. I look at this play and think, how did Moses whiff so bad and ruin the play? I also think , nice job escaping at the last second. Others at JN watch the play and think Zach is having mental issues. Ok...I just disagree. (He did have mental issues not that long ago, absolutely. But has improved in the last few games and deserves credit for it, imo)

I was waiting for Zach to have a melt down in this game with seemingly everything falling apart - no running game, no starting WRs, OLine sucking and Buffalo having a great defense, and freaking 9 sacks. He kept his sh*t together and kept fighting.

I just disagree strongly that there were a lot of plays that he missed (would love a good example). He didn't have much success obviously, no one can claim he did. We scored 10 points. But we were just undermanned in a massive way against a great defense and were not able to overcome it. So be it. We come back next year with more talent, less injuries and more experience in the system and should be able to start winning games like this. I don't think we are that far away. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing_advanced.htm

 

[Smashmouth]

4 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said:

Someone can correct me if I"m wrong, but wasn't accuracy one of his strong suits in college? And then in preseason he didn't have any problems with accuracy, and was hitting guys in stride with no issue, IIRC.

IMO, he doesn't have an issue with natural accuracy, a la Hackenberg, who couldn't hit an elephant with a nuke. I think Wilson's problems are more related to not being ready to handle the pressure and speed of the NFL, which is all mental, imo. He panics and that forces him to to rush his mechanics which leads to these bounce passes and throws that are high and/or behind receivers on routine throws that he normally 100% has the physical ability to make in his sleep.

That's, at least, what I'm seeing with my untrained eye. I'm curious if anyone else is seeing the same thing.

I think this is what everyone is hoping ... Its why i made the post a few weeks ago citing exactly what you are saying here but my take was ... is it possible Zach's arm is tired or hurt in some way because going from accurate to what he did during the regular season is not easily explained.

That being said I did see him flexing his arm this week while sitting on the bench the camera actually panned to Zach while he was doing it. It looked like it was bothering him. 

[ZachEY]

5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

They'll have a legit vet in the QB room.  If it's not Flacco it will be someone like that.

Saleh was effusive in his praise of Flacco and how much he helped.

My guess is it's the three of them again next year.

My definition of "legit vet" is probably different than yours.  Flacco is a "legit vet" in that he has a history of playing at a high level and can step in should things go wrong.  However, he is not a "legit vet" in that he poses any chance of taking the starting job from Wilson due to his offseason performance.  Flacco's cashing checks, and I don't know that he actually wants to be on the field.

[Peace Frog]

9 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Yep I do get to tell you. 

 

Actually, no you can't.  

I will do whatever I please.  

[Peace Frog]

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Breeze's comp. % in his first three years were

55, 60 and 57

I know it's not what you're talking about here - but it's important to recognize.  He didn't hit a 70% comp % until his 10th season.

Oh no he wasn't making a comparison.

He just...you know...mentioned him to make a point.  Not of comparison. 

Lol.

[Smashmouth]

5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Breeze's comp. % in his first three years were

55, 60 and 57

I know it's not what you're talking about here - but it's important to recognize.  He didn't hit a 70% comp % until his 10th season.

Brees went into a different offense with the Saints. They threw a lot of passes to the RB's and a lot of WR screens which was the reason for the higher percentage your also making my point as to why comp percentages go up to crazy levels its due to the short passing game. 

 

[Peace Frog]

12 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

 

troll .... I'm guessing you can't really be this stupid.

You know when you've lost an argument when the ad hominem attacks start.  

Again, well done.  

[Smashmouth]

4 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

My definition of "legit vet" is probably different than yours.  Flacco is a "legit vet" in that he has a history of playing at a high level and can step in should things go wrong.  However, he is not a "legit vet" in that he poses any chance of taking the starting job from Wilson due to his offseason performance.  Flacco's cashing checks, and I don't know that he actually wants to be on the field.

Would a Foles be a legit Vet , maybe too old ? I mean when looking for a legit vet to compete with Zach for his Job shouldn't it be someone who has a good amount of time left as a starting QB in the NFL should he win that competition ?

[Smashmouth]

1 minute ago, Peace Frog said:

You know when you've lost an argument when the ad hominem attacks start.  

Again, well done.  

Yep you lost now run along