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Every Throw from Zach Wilson Week 18 vs Bills


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1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

Brees went into a different offense with the Saints. They threw a lot of passes to the RB's and a lot of WR screens which was the reason for the higher percentage your also making my point as to why comp percentages go up to crazy levels its due to the short passing game. 

 

Yeah, I would be surprised if ZW's comp % isn't over 60% next year. 

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4 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Oh no he wasn't making a comparison.

He just...you know...mentioned him to make a point.  Not of comparison. 

Lol.

Give it up already I made it clear it was not a comparison.  Find another thread to contribute nothing and troll away

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15 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Breeze's comp. % in his first three years were

55, 60 and 57

I know it's not what you're talking about here - but it's important to recognize.  He didn't hit a 70% comp % until his 10th season.

Why is that important to recognize?  What relevance does that have to Zach Wilson as a NY Jet in 2021 and onwards?

If all it is is the usual "X was bad, and got better, so Wilson can be bad and could then get better" I think everyone would say sure, at a 10,000 foot ultra-generalized view, it's theoretically possible bad players can get better, yes.  Same way we all have the possibility to play the lottery this afternoon and win.

But beyond that kind of ultra-generality, what does Brees, Rodgers, Manning or any of the other oft-referenced "they sucked and got better, so Zach will too" referenced players actually have to do with Zach? 

Are they similar players with similar bodies, and similar skills, playing for similar teams in similar NFL eras in similar offenses with similar coaches against similar opponents? If not, then how does what they did matter to Zach going forward?

If not, it seems these references are just cherry picking "guys who sucked and got better" and ignoring the far larger population of "guys who sucked and then sucked some more".

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7 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

My definition of "legit vet" is probably different than yours.  Flacco is a "legit vet" in that he has a history of playing at a high level and can step in should things go wrong.  However, he is not a "legit vet" in that he poses any chance of taking the starting job from Wilson due to his offseason performance.  Flacco's cashing checks, and I don't know that he actually wants to be on the field.

I definitely think Flacco still wants to play and still wants to start but I don't think the Jets are interested in a serious competition for the starter.  They are tied to Zach, like it or not.

Flacco is the insurance in case Zach gets injured.  Not if he falters.  

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7 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Actually, no you can't.  

I will do whatever I please.  

You do realize that "you doing whatever you want" has no power over "him telling you".  

You could say you're not going to read it.  That's you doing what you want.

But "you doing what you want" can't stop others from "doing what they want" and saying whatever they like.

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7 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

My definition of "legit vet" is probably different than yours.  Flacco is a "legit vet" in that he has a history of playing at a high level and can step in should things go wrong.  However, he is not a "legit vet" in that he poses any chance of taking the starting job from Wilson due to his offseason performance.  Flacco's cashing checks, and I don't know that he actually wants to be on the field.

Yup..

I stated this in another thread - we'll know what the coaches/GM really think about Zach by who the back up is...JD can't afford another 4 or 5 win season.

If they don't have faith in Wilson - they'll bring in your "legit vet"

otherwise they're rolling with Flacco and White or the like.  

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5 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Would a Foles be a legit Vet , maybe too old ? I mean when looking for a legit vet to compete with Zach for his Job shouldn't it be someone who has a good amount of time left as a starting QB in the NFL should he win that competition ?

Certainly more than Flacco.

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2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Yeah, I would be surprised if ZW's comp % isn't over 60% next year. 

I hope it is and I hope Zach learns to take what's given him early in games. Its not a bad thing to take the short stuff and force the hand of the defense. That's how things open up later in the game when you force their hand. Like I said a million times we watched Brady dink and dunk us to death for 2 decades. The one game Rex decided to take that away from Brady in the playoffs we won I know you remember that game.

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You do realize that "you doing whatever you want" has no power over "him telling you".  

You could say you're not going to read it.  That's you doing what you want.

But "you doing what you want" can't stop others from "doing what they want" and saying whatever they like.

Its real simple War all he has to do is stop putting words in my mouth and all is well. But he just can't.

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3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Yup..

I stated this in another thread - we'll know what the coaches/GM really think about Zach by who the back up is...JD can't afford another 4 or 5 win season.

If they don't have faith in Wilson - they'll bring in your "legit vet"

otherwise they're rolling with Flacco and White or the like.  

See, I don't know if that's true.

They may also have the mandate not to bring in anyone who can upstage their prized possession.  I believe that's why White got shut down so quickly.  Say what you want about him as a long term prospect, but White absolutely upstaged Wilson, and Buffalo gave the Jets an opportunity to burry him, so they didn't have to deal w/ going back to Wilson if White rebounded off a bad game against a far superior opponent.

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Why is that important to recognize?  What relevance does that have to Zach Wilson as a NY Jet in 2021 and onwards?

If all it is is the usual "X was bad, and got better, so Wilson can be bad and could then get better" I think everyone would say sure, at a 10,000 foot ultra-generalized view, it's theoretically possible bad players can get better, yes.  Same way we all have the possibility to play the lottery this afternoon and win.

But beyond that kind of ultra-generality, what does Brees, Rodgers, Manning or any of the other oft-referenced "they sucked and got better, so Zach will too" referenced players actually have to do with Zach? 

Are they similar players with similar bodies, and similar skills, playing for similar teams in similar NFL eras in similar offenses with similar coaches against similar opponents? If not, then how does what they did matter to Zach going forward?

If not, it seems these references are just cherry picking "guys who sucked and got better" and ignoring the far larger population of "guys who sucked and then sucked some more".

It's pretty simple..  

The conversation of Brees'e completion % came up and I pointed out that his wasn't great to start his career.  I clearly would't have brought up Brees out of nowhere - nor did I compare the two.

Not really worth arguing over or getting angry about ... 

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5 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

See, I don't know if that's true.

They may also have the mandate not to bring in anyone who can upstage their prized possession.  I believe that's why White got shut down so quickly.  Say what you want about him as a long term prospect, but White absolutely upstaged Wilson, and Buffalo gave the Jets an opportunity to burry him, so they didn't have to deal w/ going back to Wilson if White rebounded off a bad game against a far superior opponent.

I'm not trying to not get into arguments today, especially about Mike White....

But White got shut down because White is a practice squad level player.  

Nothing to do with Wilson.  When Zach got hurt the Jets went out immediately and traded for Flacco.  They did that because they see White every day and have done so for three years.  They know what he is.

Who is this Mandate from?

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2 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

See, I don't know if that's true.

They may also have the mandate not to bring in anyone who can upstage their prized possession.  I believe that's why White got shut down so quickly.  Say what you want about him as a long term prospect, but White absolutely upstaged Wilson, and Buffalo gave the Jets an opportunity to burry him, so they didn't have to deal w/ going back to Wilson if White rebounded off a bad game against a far superior opponent.

I would be perfectly happy riding with White and Flacco as the primary backups.

I can't see the FO starting a true competition off of Zach's improvement in the second half of the year.

I really don't see them going after a Minshew or Trubisky or the like.  Not a young guy looking to start.

It's not coddling so much as they are going to ride with Zach come hell or high water.  

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5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Not really worth arguing over or getting angry about ... 

Oh, not angry Fid buddy.  :D

This is just one of my pet peeves of discourse on players.  The repetition of the logical fallacy of "X did it, so Y can do it" when X was a statistical outlier in their "doing it", and Y and X have almost no variable in common besides being human beings who play football, lol.

We should all strive to avoid logical fallacies in our arguments, and this one is perhaps the oldest chestnut of fan logical fallacies.  No one would say being bad then getting better is impossible.  Of course it's possible.  But Manning, Brees or Rodgers are irrelevant to Wilson.  He will not do or not do because they did or did not do.

That's all.  Jousting my own particular favorite rhetorical windmill on this one. :lol:

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I am not going to get into the discussion of the game but wanted to make a point:

People say all the time -"he needs to move up in the pocket"

Well moving up in the pocket is generally associated with decent to good pass protection to buy an extra half a second or so. 

If the tackles get a decent block on the rushers that is what essentially creates the pocket. As time goes on the edge rushers compress the pocket and if the interior OL has done their job there is room to move towards the LOS for additional room.

If there is pressure up the middle, or free edge rushers often there is simply not room or time to "step up" to avoid the rush and the options are get rid of the ball or move backwards. In general QBs are not great at making plays after moving backwards, but some do like Mahomes,, Wilson Rodgers. Polian actually calls it the 4th dimension of a QB. If a QB can move backwards and still have the elusiveness, vision and arm strength to throw the ball it can be devastating. Zach Wilson has the ability to be one of the guys to succeed in that 4th dimension.

In the Buffalo game there were not a whole lot of move up in the pocket opportunities and he did move up in several plays. It's an easy criticism but not always an accurate one.

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10 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

I hope it is and I hope Zach learns to take what's given him early in games. Its not a bad thing to take the short stuff and force the hand of the defense. That's how things open up later in the game when you force their hand. Like I said a million times we watched Brady dink and dunk us to death for 2 decades. The one game Rex decided to take that away from Brady in the playoffs we won I know you remember that game.

I'm with you here and I also think Wilson learned that too...This offensive system is designed for it. 

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16 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

I definitely think Flacco still wants to play and still wants to start but I don't think the Jets are interested in a serious competition for the starter.  They are tied to Zach, like it or not.

Flacco is the insurance in case Zach gets injured.  Not if he falters.  

I disagree, but there's no point in pushing the issue because neither of us can or will ever know what's going on in his mind.

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5 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

I would be perfectly happy riding with White and Flacco as the primary backups.

I can't see the FO starting a true competition off of Zach's improvement in the second half of the year.

I really don't see them going after a Minshew or Trubisky or the like.  Not a young guy looking to start.

It's not coddling so much as they are going to ride with Zach come hell or high water.  

I worry about everyone else's development if the Tampa Bay game isn't close to the baseline.  Can't sacrifice the whole team for him.

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11 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

See, I don't know if that's true.

They may also have the mandate not to bring in anyone who can upstage their prized possession.  I believe that's why White got shut down so quickly.  Say what you want about him as a long term prospect, but White absolutely upstaged Wilson, and Buffalo gave the Jets an opportunity to burry him, so they didn't have to deal w/ going back to Wilson if White rebounded off a bad game against a far superior opponent.

exactly

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Oh, not angry Fid buddy.  :D

This is just one of my pet peeves of discourse on players.  The repetition of the logical fallacy of "X did it, so Y can do it" when X was a statistical outlier in their "doing it", and Y and X have almost no variable in common besides being human beings who play football, lol.

We should all strive to avoid logical fallacies in our arguments, and this one is perhaps the oldest chestnut of fan logical fallacies.  No one would say being bad then getting better is impossible.  Of course it's possible.  But Manning, Brees or Rodgers are irrelevant to Wilson.  He will not do or not do because they did or did not do.

That's all.  Jousting my own particular favorite rhetorical windmill on this one. :lol:

Agreed.

So few QB's become FQB - the VAST, VAST majority of the QB's that enter the league fail (including the 1st round ones)

The ones that have reached that level all seem to have all gotten there in different ways.  We shouldn't bucket anyone in a precedent category - for better or worse.

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4 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

See, I don't know if that's true.

They may also have the mandate not to bring in anyone who can upstage their prized possession.  I believe that's why White got shut down so quickly. 

You thought shutting him down after 4 INTs was quick?  I think the Jets know MUCH more about Mike White then some of us suspect.  They understand the underpinnings of that great win vs. Cincy, the extraordinarily low air yards component to the passing game that day, etc.  I like Mike White a lot, but he's still a developmental backup IMO.  I'd like to see him somehow get a lot more reps but I think the Jets know his ceiling.  Now, that ceiling could actually be as a low end starter in the league, maybe a Minshew-light kind of guy.  But after 3 years I think they know he doesn't have the same upside that Wilson has and thus the focus on getting reps for Zach.

 

Quote

Say what you want about him as a long term prospect, but White absolutely upstaged Wilson, and Buffalo gave the Jets an opportunity to burry him, so they didn't have to deal w/ going back to Wilson if White rebounded off a bad game against a far superior opponent.

There could certainly be some truth to this, but White was given an opportunity this year and I think the Jets learned a lot about him (both good and bad).  I also think they see the ceiling is much higher with Wilson even if Zach is still learning and making some of the mistakes that White went through during his development in 2018 with the Cowboys and 2019-2021 with the Jets.

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6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm not trying to not get into arguments today, especially about Mike White....

But White got shut down because White is a practice squad level player.  

Nothing to do with Wilson.  When Zach got hurt the Jets went out immediately and traded for Flacco.  They did that because they see White every day and have done so for three years.  They know what he is.

Who is this Mandate from?

Call him whatever you like, he had the best game by a Jets QB this season, and it wasn't particularly close.  He also played well the following week until getting hurt.  I am not making a commentary on White's future, simply that at the time he came in, he performed MUCH better than Zach Wilson, and absolutely upstaged him.

The mandate would obviously come from Woody Johnson, who, if we know anything, know he cares about appearances and what's on the back page.

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1 minute ago, ZachEY said:

I disagree, but there's no point in pushing the issue because neither of us can or will ever know what's going on in his mind.

Why would Flacco continue to take backup QB jobs if he did not want to play? He's one of the most highly compensated players in NFL history. ( > 165 million )

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4 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

I worry about everyone else's development if the Tampa Bay game isn't close to the baseline.  Can't sacrifice the whole team for him.

I agree 100%.  I just think they are going with Zach and if he reverts it's all going down in flames.  

 

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2 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Call him whatever you like, he had the best game by a Jets QB this season, and it wasn't particularly close.  He also played well the following week until getting hurt.  I am not making a commentary on White's future, simply that at the time he came in, he performed MUCH better than Zach Wilson, and absolutely upstaged him.

The mandate would obviously come from Woody Johnson, who, if we know anything, know he cares about appearances and what's on the back page.

 

I agree, but I'm also hoping some things are changing at One Jets Drive.  Westy seems to think so....

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, ZachEY said:

Call him whatever you like, he had the best game by a Jets QB this season, and it wasn't particularly close.  He also played well the following week until getting hurt.  I am not making a commentary on White's future, simply that at the time he came in, he performed MUCH better than Zach Wilson, and absolutely upstaged him.

The mandate would obviously come from Woody Johnson, who, if we know anything, know he cares about appearances and what's on the back page.

Look, we saw three games the organization has seen three years.  They know what they have in him - but I'm going to leave White alone...

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying here -Basically, Woody Johnson told Joe Douglas that he's not allowed to sign a quality back-up because the New York Post might write something bad about Wilson.  Is that the gist of it?

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1 minute ago, jetstream23 said:

You thought shutting him down after 4 INTs was quick?  I think the Jets know MUCH more about Mike White then some of us suspect.  They understand the underpinnings of that great win vs. Cincy, the extraordinarily low air yards component to the passing game that day, etc.  I like Mike White a lot, but he's still a developmental backup IMO.  I'd like to see him somehow get a lot more reps but I think the Jets know his ceiling.  Now, that ceiling could actually be as a low end starter in the league, maybe a Minshew-light kind of guy.  But after 3 years I think they know he doesn't have the same upside that Wilson has and thus the focus on getting reps for Zach.

 

There could certainly be some truth to this, but White was given an opportunity this year and I think the Jets learned a lot about him (both good and bad).  I also think they see the ceiling is much higher with Wilson even if Zach is still learning and making some of the mistakes that White went through during his development in 2018 with the Cowboys and 2019-2021 with the Jets.

I mean, Zach Wilson had a 4 INT game and wasn't benched.  White had one against Buffalo, with only one of those INTs coming while the game was still at hand.

I agree that the Jets know more about White than we do, and as I've said before, and in this very thread, I'm not trying to speak about White re: the future, I'm saying he played the best game at QB of anyone this season, and it wasn't close.

Ultimately, White was benched prior to Zach's return.  Why do that, other than to ease the transition back to the underperforming rookie?  Had White put up another quality game, it would have been extremely difficult to go back to Wilson.  MIKE WHITE HYPE was a real thing.  With Flacco, you could/can pull him any time.

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4 minutes ago, Green hat said:

Why would Flacco continue to take backup QB jobs if he did not want to play? He's one of the most highly compensated players in NFL history. ( > 165 million )

Because when he's only 36 years old and when leaves football, his earning potential drops to zero, and back up QB for a few million a year is a pretty awesome job.

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4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Look, we saw three games the organization has seen three years.  They know what they have in him - but I'm going to leave White alone...

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying here -Basically, Woody Johnson told Joe Douglas that he's not allowed to sign a quality back-up because the New York Post might write something bad about Wilson.  Is that the gist of it?

You're phrasing it a way to make it sound as absurd as possible - Mike White is relevant because with one game, a meaningful portion of the fanbase was hoping for something other than the return of the face of the franchise #2 pick.

I'm sure Woody has discussions w/ leadership, and I'm not seeing it as terribly absurd that they want to avoid that type of situation, considering the investment in Wilson.  If you think that is so crazy, why when there were many better QBs available in FA, was no one brought in who could easily outplay Sam Darnold or Mark Sanchez.  Hell, we went with Luke Falk and David Fales at one point.

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15 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

I agree 100%.  I just think they are going with Zach and if he reverts it's all going down in flames.  

 

Well, I think we can agree that that would be... well... bad?

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