If Zach Wilson doesn’t work out here should the Jets stop drafting QBs for a while?

[Jet2020]

4 hours ago, JETSY14 said:

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut

We’ve found a bunch of nuts too. 

[FidelioJet]

Draft a QB, but build the team first.

Recently the Jets have brought in raw, rookie QB's to a team without any support.  Zach has come in with less than Sam and that's scary.  Robert "We're gonna lift you up" Saleh - such BS...

With Sanchez they did it right, but Sanchez never evolved...

What you saw with him was a QB came in with a competent team that helped carry him through his first couple of years and the team thrived.

When it was time for Sanchez to start putting the team his back - year 4...He wasn't capable.  But the team around him made that transition relatively smooth.

It's the reason why when I continue to hear the team doesn't matter - the talent doesn't matter - the weapons don't matter etc...it's all nonsense.  Of course, it all matters. 

[jetswinbaby!]

So even though the Jets have the same odds as any other team to draft the next Justin Herbert...

They should make a run at one of the many great, winning, veteran QB's that are always available in the NFL...

Oh my...

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, jetswinbaby! said:

So even though the Jets have the same odds as any other team to draft the next Justin Herbert...

They should make a run at one of the many great, winning, veteran QB's that are always available in the NFL...

Oh my...

I just don't buy this.  

The situation a QB comes into matters.  Jets don't do it right.

[Hal N of Provo]

1 hour ago, JetPotato said:

Yes, because not acquiring QBs is one of the best ways to find one.

 

I’ve seen enough commercials for sports movies to know this is true.  There are a few ways to do it:

-wait for a young child to develop some special ability following an accident 

-look for a zoo or farm animal that shows potential 

-look for a nerdy girl watching practice and just give her a chance!

-or wait for your basic angles in the outfield scenario 

 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

11 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I just don't buy this.  

The situation a QB comes into matters.  Jets don't do it right.

You don’t buy it because the jets pick the bad ones and not the good ones?

[Hal N of Provo]

12 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I just don't buy this.  

The situation a QB comes into matters.  Jets don't do it right.

There is no way they chose the wrong guy 35 times in a row 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

If Wilson doesn’t work out, you wait until there’s a good QB worth drafting. If you have the opportunity you take it. Until then, build the team out. And you don’t need a veteran QB to compete. 

[BigRy56]

2 years from now this team will be competing and if Zach has been officially deemed not the answer at that point, I’d rather put a good veteran QB out there with a team that’s ready instead of drafting another one.

The issue at that point will become who is available as a FA and how do we get a QB in the draft when we’re picking mid-first round. IMO we’d have to either trade up considerably or we are revisiting the era of drafting guys like Clemens, Hackenberg, McElroy again.

[slats]

35 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Draft a QB, but build the team first.

Recently the Jets have brought in raw, rookie QB's to a team without any support.  Zach has come in with less than Sam and that's scary.  Robert "We're gonna lift you up" Saleh - such BS...

With Sanchez they did it right, but Sanchez never evolved...

What you saw with him was a QB came in with a competent team that helped carry him through his first couple of years and the team thrived.

When it was time for Sanchez to start putting the team his back - year 4...He wasn't capable.  But the team around him made that transition relatively smooth.

It's the reason why when I continue to hear the team doesn't matter - the talent doesn't matter - the weapons don't matter etc...it's all nonsense.  Of course, it all matters. 

This is why I was in the trade down camp last year. With a depleted roster and rookies from the head coach on down, I didn’t think it would be the best environment to also try to start developing a rookie QB at the same time. But what could they do sitting there with the #2 pick and a QB they liked? Should they have run it back with Darnold? Brought in some low level starter/high end backup and do their installations? I guess, maybe, but then what was going to be their long term solution at the position?
 
Serious case of: it is what it is. Zach had a rough rookie campaign, but comes back next year with a season under his belt to a team that should be significantly closer to complete. This was their plan. For it to work, Zach needs to take a giant step forward. 

[Dunnie]

The failure of every drafted Jets QB is an infrastructure problem. They simply don’t have the capacity to develop high end QB talent here. They need to either flush the system altogether or they pay the price to bring in pre-developed QBs. They never should have drafted Wilson in the first place. They should have waited out the Watson and Russell Wilson situations while loading up on draft capital by trading #2 to San Fran.

I agree with the baseline analysis of the problem .. but your solutions are head scratching.

The only real solution is to develop the coaching capabilities. Develop or acquire the ability to train up obvious talent.

Watson or Wilson would have handcuffed this roster.

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[Smashmouth]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Drafting QBs is ok, but you should always pair him with a competent vet to compete for the job, which the Jets never do.  Sanchez, Darnold and Wilson were the unquestioned starters entering Week 1 of their rookie years.  There was no legitimate competition.

Grab Winston, Minshew or Trubisky this offseason, please.

No , No and No ... I agree with what you are saying but I don't want anything to do with Winston and of the three I would say maybe Minshew ...Is this all thats available ? Jimmy G would be the perfect fit but if Zach Fails Jimmy is always hurt so theres that.

[Snell41]

We should absolutely continue drafting QB’s until we have one. Currently we do not have one.


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[TheClashFan]

43 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Draft a QB, but build the team first.

Recently the Jets have brought in raw, rookie QB's to a team without any support.  Zach has come in with less than Sam and that's scary.  Robert "We're gonna lift you up" Saleh - such BS...

With Sanchez they did it right, but Sanchez never evolved...

What you saw with him was a QB came in with a competent team that helped carry him through his first couple of years and the team thrived.

When it was time for Sanchez to start putting the team his back - year 4...He wasn't capable.  But the team around him made that transition relatively smooth.

It's the reason why when I continue to hear the team doesn't matter - the talent doesn't matter - the weapons don't matter etc...it's all nonsense.  Of course, it all matters. 

Regarding Sanchez, yeah, didn't the Jets have arguably the best OL in the league his first year, with the #1 rushing offense?  IIRC.

However, dropping Alan Faneca at LG and replacing Damien Woody at RT with Wayne Hunter pretty much ruined all that.  

[Dunnie]

We should absolutely continue drafting QB’s until we have one. Currently we do not have one.


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I agree we need to take a QB in rd 3 or 4 ... and its ok to be Wrong about Zach ... really ... we will still love you.

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[derp]

20 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

You don’t buy it because the jets pick the bad ones and not the good ones?

Look at where the good ones get drafted and where the bad ones get drafted. Good ones get drafted #1 overall or outside the top five in ranges where the teams have the capacity to support them.

Jets draft guys in the 2-5 overall purgatory range that’s resulted in Matt Ryan and a bunch of busts. Team not good enough to give the QB an environment to develop in, QB not good enough to elevate the team.

[mfmartin]

This is precisely my point. To those in the “keep trying until you find one camp”
1) It’s tough to build the infrastructure when the organization continues to invest their best draft picks on QB. Want to build the infrastructure?
Draft Quentin Nelson instead of trading up for Sam Darnold 
Draft Kyle Pitts or Jamaar Chase instead of drafting Zach Wilson 
2) Nobody in the organization has any track record drafting/developing young QBs. The Jets aren’t good at it. Why continue to expose your weakness?
Sanchez, Geno, Darnold, and Zach all look like the same player. All thrown into the fire well before they were ready. 

Sanchez, Geno, Darnold and Zach weren’t developed by the same people. Your 2nd point is moot. It’s like saying you shouldn’t draft USC quarterbacks, complete amateur comparison


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[Joe Willie White Shoes]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

The failure of every drafted Jets QB is an infrastructure problem. They simply don’t have the capacity to develop high end QB talent here. They need to either flush the system altogether or they pay the price to bring in pre-developed QBs. They never should have drafted Wilson in the first place. They should have waited out the Watson and Russell Wilson situations while loading up on draft capital by trading #2 to San Fran.

I call complete BS.  Please explain to me how the same "infrastructure" was in place when Sanchez was the QB, then Darnold, and now Wilson????  What is this common "infrastructure?"  Each was coached by an entirely different coaching staff.  There is basically not a single thing that is the same from QB to QB.  

[JohnnyLV]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Drafting QBs is ok, but you should always pair him with a competent vet to compete for the job, which the Jets never do.  Sanchez, Darnold and Wilson were the unquestioned starters entering Week 1 of their rookie years.  There was no legitimate competition.

Grab Winston, Minshew or Trubisky this offseason, please.

I have never really gotten this stance. 

A rookie QB is not "winning" a TC competition with a veteran QB especially since they get roughly half the work. 

If you want the QB to sit and learn then do that. I am not sure the rookie is always better off, but I get the concept. Two full offseasons and watching the QB play does make him more prepared in Season 2, but it is still less preparation than if he played, plus are you expecting him to win the competition in Year 2? Probably still unlikely, so most teams will clear the deck and start him and then you are in the same situation as starting him in Year 1 but he has more knowledge to start the year.

They way I see it, Zach is MUCH better prepared for year 2 than if he had sat a year. If we had say started a Minshew or Flacco year 1, then in year 2, Zach would still very likely need to go through the same ups and downs with the speed of the game and mechanics and system knowledge he did this year. 

And if you start the veteran again then you might as well have just adopted the Minnesota philosophy and not drafted QB and roll with veterans and hope you build a strong enough team around him to succeed. It has happened but super rarely.

Zach was bad in Year 1 but at the end the game did not seem too fast his mechanics were much improved and for the most part he elevated those around him.

We took him at #2 because we thought he was a franchise guy, so you need to take the lumps in his development.

In terms of veteran mentoring and the like I am not so sure it really has that much impact, and we did have veterans for Zach to talk to.

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

7 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Drafting QBs is ok, but you should always pair him with a competent vet to compete for the job, which the Jets never do.  Sanchez, Darnold and Wilson were the unquestioned starters entering Week 1 of their rookie years.  There was no legitimate competition.

Grab Winston, Minshew or Trubisky this offseason, please.

This makes no sense whatsoever.  Back up the young highly drafted QB with failed slightly older highly drafted QBs?  And what does this competition between green inexperienced QBs and prior failures moving on to their 3rd-4th teams produce?  I think having a veteran back up on a contending team makes sense. If the starting QB is injured, you  want someone who can come in and hold the fort and win some games. For a rebuilding team in the current NFL, having a QB competition is a disaster. There are not enough practices under the new CBA if a young QB splits reps with the vet.  Plus the current use of social media by beat writers magnifies the competition and makes it unworkable.  "Wilson just threw a bad interception".  "Minshew went 1-5 in the red zone drill".  All it does is stir controversy. 

[JetPotato]

38 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

I’ve seen enough commercials for sports movies to know this is true.  There are a few ways to do it:

-wait for a young child to develop some special ability following an accident 

-look for a zoo or farm animal that shows potential 

-look for a nerdy girl watching practice and just give her a chance!

-or wait for your basic angles in the outfield scenario 

 

Remember too, even if the nerdy girl doesn't become the star QB, just get her to take off her glasses and untie her hair and voila... she's super hot and ready to party.

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

7 hours ago, NYJets43 said:

I like Zach Wilson and wanted the Jets to draft him, but at this point I have my doubts that he’s going to be good enough to be considered a long-term solution. 

Since 2009 the Jets have invested more draft capital in the QB position than any other team In the NFL by a wide-margin. 

A big part of the reason the Jets haven’t made the playoffs going on a dozen years is because of all the time and resources wasted trying to find a star QB in the draft. 

As an older Jets fan I am really getting sick of it. We’ve had two competent QB seasons since Brett Favre in 2008.

2015: Ryan Fitzpatrick

2017: Josh McCown

Outside of those seasons every year we’ve been watching the worst QB in the NFL. 

Beyond that I’m not buying what anyone is selling anymore. All we are going to hear about this off-season/training camp is that ZW is ready to take a big jump in year 2. Has anyone heard that story before? I’ll believe it when I see it. 
 

At this point if Wilson fails I just want the Jets to grab a competent veteran and try to win that way. Organizations need to understand what they don’t do well. The Jets stink at drafting and developing QBs just like the Yankees stink at drafting and developing starting pitching. 

10 of the 14 teams in the playoffs have home grown drafted QBs.  Two more traded for very young QBs who were either behind vets who were going nowhere or were struggling a bit.  The only 2 teams in the playoffs that actually added veteran QBs to an existing team are Tampa and the Rams.  Of the 10 teams that drafted QBs, 7 took them in the first round and 2 others went early in the 2nd.  The overwhelming winning QB development formula is to draft a QB early in the first round.  Some hit, some miss. You keep doing it until you hit.  

 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Serious question, when was the last time we had a GM or Hc with ant track record of picking or developing a QB?

people act like coaching has no bearing on the success or failure of a QB and they couldnt be more wrong.  There are reasons why certain coaches have developed multiple QBs and why others have never.

The QB is one variable in the equation, not the entire equation.

The college game is so different than the nfl game its not even funny. If zw doesnt work out, which i think is far from concluded, the jets have got to get people in the process with a track record of selecting and developing a QB before giving a regime a second chance.

[Ray Ryan]

we should draft more undersized qbs who never had a good game facing real defenses in college as long as Chris Simms says so

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I just don't buy this.  

The situation a QB comes into matters.  Jets don't do it right.

Nope.  Most QBs are drafted in the top 10 picks in the first round.  If you build the team first and start winning, you don't draft in a spot to pick a QB.  The overwhelming majority of starting QBs in the NFL were drafted in the top third of the first round.  

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Nope.  Most QBs are drafted in the top 10 picks in the first round.  If you build the team first and start winning, you don't draft in a spot to pick a QB.  The overwhelming majority of starting QBs in the NFL were drafted in the top third of the first round.  

many of top QBs right now were not drafted top 10, some were, but many were not

[peebag]

It's not the qb issue but an organizational one.  And until that's fixed, we get to watch other teams have success.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, peebag said:

It's not the qb issue but an organizational one.  And until that's fixed, we get to watch other teams have success.

yeah, this should be pretty clear to everyone, but apparently isnt

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

6 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

many of top QBs right now were not drafted top 10, some were, but many were not

Really? I can name only a few:

Brady - just a complete outlier of a story

Rodgers - 15 years ago and he inexplicably slid to the later part of round 1

Wilson - a rare gem in round 3 - and he appears to be slipping

Prescott

Lamar Jackson - slid because of his unorthodox skill set

Three were drafted 10 or more years ago. Brady and Rodgers are freaks and are from another era completely.

So you really only have 2 young QBs drafted in the last 10 years who were not early first round draft picks.  That's not "many". That's "hardly any"

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

20 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Serious question, when was the last time we had a GM or Hc with ant track record of picking or developing a QB?

people act like coaching has no bearing on the success or failure of a QB and they couldnt be more wrong.  There are reasons why certain coaches have developed multiple QBs and why others have never.

The QB is one variable in the equation, not the entire equation.

The college game is so different than the nfl game its not even funny. If zw doesnt work out, which i think is far from concluded, the jets have got to get people in the process with a track record of selecting and developing a QB before giving a regime a second chance.

That was Knapp's job. The biggest loss for this new Jets regime was his untimely death.  He was a QB whisperer and very hard to replace.  

[Dunnie]

we should draft more undersized qbs who never had a good game facing real defenses in college as long as Chris Simms says so

Glad we dont have anything resembling your desription

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[Joe Willie White Shoes]

6 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

yeah, this should be pretty clear to everyone, but apparently isnt

So we are back to "firing" the owner?  That's the solution?  I guess we should all find a new team then. A better view is that the Johnsons wake up and realize that the answer is to find the right front office and CS.  Owners develop over time as well. The Rooney family was an NFL joke until the 1970s.  

[Saul Goodman]

18 minutes ago, Ray Ryan said:

we should draft more undersized qbs who never had a good game facing real defenses in college as long as Chris Simms says so

Man, so many fans ate that sh*t up. Too bad an actual General Manager thought the same. That we drafted Zach Wilson at 2nd overall still just blows my mind. Some days I laugh, some days I’m infuriated. 

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, Dunnie said:

 

 

I agree with the baseline analysis of the problem .. but your solutions are head scratching.

The only real solution is to develop the coaching capabilities. Develop or acquire the ability to train up obvious talent.

Watson or Wilson would have handcuffed this roster.

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I think that’s what I mean by it being an infrastructure problem. Who’s hiring these coaches? Who’s filling out these staffs? The ever-burning questions surrounding the Jets has always been, who’s in charge? 

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

That was Knapp's job. The biggest loss for this new Jets regime was his untimely death.  He was a QB whisperer and very hard to replace.  

Can you point to all the great QB success stories under Greg Knapp RIP?