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Brady is the greatest of all time. I was a long time denier but now that he's continued to do it on the Bucs at age 44 or whatever he is, you can't take it away from him, IMO.

The only real argument is that the evolution of the game put greater emphasis on the QB position allowing the best QB to dominate the overall game more than in previous eras, which is true. But it doesn't change that fact that arguing any other QB is essentially hypothetical (i.e. if QB X played in today's game they'd do Y) which is subjective and impossible to prove.

The reality is, Brady dominated his era (which spans multiple eras) more than any QB dominated theirs. I mean, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees -- his three greatest contemporaries -- combined for 4 rings. Brady now has 7. The degree to which he's separated himself from the pack is pretty incredible.

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You rang?

Yes he was a total stat compiler who did very few special things while carrying a football. Mediocre numbers over a well-above-mediocre number of carries = lots of yards.

I'd take someone truly great for 4 years over someone just pretty good for 10 years every single time. 

:)

Martin was a very good back but he was not elite. Interestly, while he averaged around 4.1 ypc he had a relatively low frequency of break away runs in his career. He was a steady, consistent, and durable back wih scads of 100 yd games, which is not unimportant, but he will never be spoken of in the same breath as guys like Jim Brown, Walter Peyton, Barry Sanders, OJ, Dickerson, Smith. There's a pretty big drop off from the elite backs in the HOF to the guys who squeaked in like Franco Harris, Bettis, and Martin. And I don't care if they were first ballot or not. Compare Martin to Leroy Kelly for example and it's not even close. But Martin is the Cal Ripken of running backs and that counts for something. 

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You rang?

Yes he was a total stat compiler who did very few special things while carrying a football. Mediocre numbers over a well-above-mediocre number of carries = lots of yards.

I'd take someone truly great for 4 years over someone just pretty good for 10 years every single time. 

:)

I know, I get it.  It sucks when you and Barry Sanders are the only RBs in the history of the NFL to accomplish the same feat over a decade.  Terrible company must be very lonely.

 

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1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Brady is in his 22nd season, but after removing the '08 year, he's averaging 4023k yards per season. The passing explosion that Peyton and Brady started back in the mid 2000s was mostly just for the ultra-elite, but by the early 2010s, even above average QBs were averaging huge yardage. I understand why you chose Ben to make your argument, but you need to choose QBs from the very next era. See below:

For reference:

  • Ben was drafted in '04 and lost the first few years of his career playing for mostly run-first teams. Starting in '09, he averaged 4k yards per season when he started at least 10 games, 
  • Stafford was drafted in '09 in his 13th season playing on mostly sh*tty teams, and has almost 60% of Brady's career yards in his 22nd season
  • Russell was drafted in '12 and lost the first few years of his career playing for mostly run-first teams, and is still averaging 3700 yards per season. 
  • Derek Carr drafted is in his 8th season and is averaging 38 yards less than 4k per season
  • Dak is in his 6th season but essentially lost all of last year, and is averaging 4400 yards in his healthy seasons
  • Patrick Mahomes lost his entire first year to learning on the bench, and is now in his 4th season starting and is averaging ~4,750 yards per season. Even if he starts 5 years less than Brady, he'll break Brady's record
  • Kyler Murray is in his 3rd season and is averaging 3,800/season
  • Herbert just finished his second season and is averaging 4,600/season

Just for fun and to really showcase the passing explosion, Baker is averaging 3500/season and is a truly sh*tty QB. That's 500 yards less than Brady per season, and they added a game to each season going forward. My point being: Brady is an inner circle all time great HoFer, but it's not like some of these records won't eventually fall. He benefitted from the passing explosion and helped clear the way for the younger guys who will eventually overtake his records. The way the game is going, passing is in, and it's here to stay for at least another generation from the grassroots to the highest levels. 

Also, brady benefitted from great teams, great coaching, and copious amounts of HGH. 

You make a good point there. However, if Brady is one of 2 players to revolutionize football, wouldn't you argue that it's a pointer to him being the GOAT? 

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1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Brady is in his 22nd season, but after removing the '08 year, he's averaging 4023k yards per season. The passing explosion that Peyton and Brady started back in the mid 2000s was mostly just for the ultra-elite, but by the early 2010s, even above average QBs were averaging huge yardage. I understand why you chose Ben to make your argument, but you need to choose QBs from the very next era. See below:

For reference:

  • Ben was drafted in '04 and lost the first few years of his career playing for mostly run-first teams. Starting in '09, he averaged 4k yards per season when he started at least 10 games, 
  • Stafford was drafted in '09 in his 13th season playing on mostly sh*tty teams, and has almost 60% of Brady's career yards in his 22nd season
  • Russell was drafted in '12 and lost the first few years of his career playing for mostly run-first teams, and is still averaging 3700 yards per season. 
  • Derek Carr drafted is in his 8th season and is averaging 38 yards less than 4k per season
  • Dak is in his 6th season but essentially lost all of last year, and is averaging 4400 yards in his healthy seasons
  • Patrick Mahomes lost his entire first year to learning on the bench, and is now in his 4th season starting and is averaging ~4,750 yards per season. Even if he starts 5 years less than Brady, he'll break Brady's record
  • Kyler Murray is in his 3rd season and is averaging 3,800/season
  • Herbert just finished his second season and is averaging 4,600/season

Just for fun and to really showcase the passing explosion, Baker is averaging 3500/season and is a truly sh*tty QB. That's 500 yards less than Brady per season, and they added a game to each season going forward. My point being: Brady is an inner circle all time great HoFer, but it's not like some of these records won't eventually fall. He benefitted from the passing explosion and helped clear the way for the younger guys who will eventually overtake his records. The way the game is going, passing is in, and it's here to stay for at least another generation from the grassroots to the highest levels. 

Also, brady benefitted from great teams, great coaching, and copious amounts of HGH. 

The only guy who might come close to Bradys record is Mahomes. Problem for him is that Brady still putting up 5000 yard season in his age 45 year. Mahomes will be 27 next year and assuming he has 10 years of elite numbers left he’ll still come up short. Same thing with Kyler and Herbert, they’d literally need to put up 5000 yards for about 20 years. And if Brady puts up ANOTHER 5000 yard season next year? Nobody will ever touch him

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1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Brady is in his 22nd season, but after removing the '08 year, he's averaging 4023k yards per season. The passing explosion that Peyton and Brady started back in the mid 2000s was mostly just for the ultra-elite, but by the early 2010s, even above average QBs were averaging huge yardage. I understand why you chose Ben to make your argument, but you need to choose QBs from the very next era. See below:

For reference:

  • Ben was drafted in '04 and lost the first few years of his career playing for mostly run-first teams. Starting in '09, he averaged 4k yards per season when he started at least 10 games, 
  • Stafford was drafted in '09 in his 13th season playing on mostly sh*tty teams, and has almost 60% of Brady's career yards in his 22nd season
  • Russell was drafted in '12 and lost the first few years of his career playing for mostly run-first teams, and is still averaging 3700 yards per season. 
  • Derek Carr drafted is in his 8th season and is averaging 38 yards less than 4k per season
  • Dak is in his 6th season but essentially lost all of last year, and is averaging 4400 yards in his healthy seasons
  • Patrick Mahomes lost his entire first year to learning on the bench, and is now in his 4th season starting and is averaging ~4,750 yards per season. Even if he starts 5 years less than Brady, he'll break Brady's record
  • Kyler Murray is in his 3rd season and is averaging 3,800/season
  • Herbert just finished his second season and is averaging 4,600/season

Just for fun and to really showcase the passing explosion, Baker is averaging 3500/season and is a truly sh*tty QB. That's 500 yards less than Brady per season, and they added a game to each season going forward. My point being: Brady is an inner circle all time great HoFer, but it's not like some of these records won't eventually fall. He benefitted from the passing explosion and helped clear the way for the younger guys who will eventually overtake his records. The way the game is going, passing is in, and it's here to stay for at least another generation from the grassroots to the highest levels. 

Also, brady benefitted from great teams, great coaching, and copious amounts of HGH. 

Mahomes will have to average 4400 yards a season for the next 15 years (age 42 season) to touch Brady. And like I said, if Brady goes for another 5000 next year nobody is coming close 

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Just now, Rhg1084 said:

Mahomes will have to average 4400 yards a season for the next 15 years (age 42 season) to touch Brady. And like I said, if Brady goes for another 5000 next year nobody is coming close 

Yeah, the problem is, you have to have a guy who is not only super talented but also has the motivation to play until he is 45ish and take care of himself along the way. Maybe that will become more common, but idk. 

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15 minutes ago, Hex said:

You make a good point there. However, if Brady is one of 2 players to revolutionize football, wouldn't you argue that it's a pointer to him being the GOAT? 

I never said anything about revolutionizing football, but since you brought it up, it was actually Peyton who turned playing QB position into a behavioral science.

The rule changes which were driven by tv deals, gambling, and a farce on player safety is what opened up offenses and limited defenses. Peyton, and then Brady were just the first two to take full advantage of it.

Brady is obviously in the discussion for GOAT. I’m just saying that I like allowing room for discussion because I’m not completely convinced that he’s #1.

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8 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

Mahomes will have to average 4400 yards a season for the next 15 years (age 42 season) to touch Brady. And like I said, if Brady goes for another 5000 next year nobody is coming close 

So in your hypotheticals, you only allow brady to put up 5k yard seasons until he’s 50, but cut everyone else off at an arbitrary age? Certainly a convenient form of arguing.

Here’s another hypothetical: Patrick starts free-basing HGH like Brady and starts getting all the defensive signals ahead of time like Brady and starts averaging 6k yards per season and plays till he’s 65. Now what?

I’m never said that his records are whimsical and will definitely fall. I’m saying that they aren’t as unattainable as you are making them out to be. The same various factors which allowed him to reach those heights will benefit the younger QBs earlier in their careers and provide them with more potential to break those records.

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7 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I never said anything about revolutionizing football, but since you brought it up, it was actually Peyton who turned playing QB position into a behavioral science.

The rule changes which were driven by tv deals, gambling, and a farce on player safety is what opened up offenses and limited defenses. Peyton, and then Brady were just the first two to take full advantage of it.

Brady is obviously in the discussion for GOAT. I’m just saying that I like allowing room for discussion because I’m not completely convinced that he’s #1.

That is true. That's why Manning was in the discussion for GOAT for so long. But Brady has 7 wins in a league in which it wasn't ever dominated by one single team until Brady and the Pats came around. That's what sold me on him. I understand why you aren't sold yet, though.

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10 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

So in your hypotheticals, you only allow brady to put up 5k yard seasons until he’s 50, but cut everyone else off at an arbitrary age? Certainly a convenient form of arguing.

Here’s another hypothetical: Patrick starts free-basing HGH like Brady and starts getting all the defensive signals ahead of time like Brady and starts averaging 6k yards per season and plays till he’s 65. Now what?

I’m never said that his records are whimsical and will definitely fall. I’m saying that they aren’t as unattainable as you are making them out to be. The same various factors which allowed him to reach those heights will benefit the younger QBs earlier in their careers and provide them with more potential to break those records.

Nobody has ever put up a 5000 yard season at age 45! Big Ben is 6 years younger and he looked like a corpse out there this year. That’s why Brady is the GOAT. Mahomes has much higher odds of being done in his late 30s than he does putting up 5000 yard seasons at age 45

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2 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Martin was a very good back but he was not elite. Interestly, while he averaged around 4.1 ypc he had a relatively low frequency of break away runs in his career. He was a steady, consistent, and durable back wih scads of 100 yd games, which is not unimportant, but he will never be spoken of in the same breath as guys like Jim Brown, Walter Peyton, Barry Sanders, OJ, Dickerson, Smith. There's a pretty big drop off from the elite backs in the HOF to the guys who squeaked in like Franco Harris, Bettis, and Martin. And I don't care if they were first ballot or not. Compare Martin to Leroy Kelly for example and it's not even close. But Martin is the Cal Ripken of running backs and that counts for something. 

When you saw Sanders, Payton Dickerson, it was clear they were a cut above. CM never gave me that feeling… not to mention his untimely disappearance in the big spot.  

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27 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

When you saw Sanders, Payton Dickerson, it was clear they were a cut above. CM never gave me that feeling… not to mention his untimely disappearance in the big spot.  

So true. Martin may have had good stats and was durable, but he was dull, in no way electrifying like Payton or Sanders. Lamont Jordan was more exciting (kidding, but I was one of those who wanted more carries for Jordan) 

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4 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

Listen I hate the guy as much as anyone but he got a sh*t ton of guys to follow him there for cheap to win and they only came because he is there (mostly defense guys).

Not that I would expect him too or would fault him for not doing but I’d love to see him go to a sh*t team and see if/when he could turn it around 

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Comparing Brady to Ruth or Gretzky is a joke.  Brady has played for 22 seasons. His career stats are based on longevity.  He led the league in passing a few times.  He won 3 MVPs.  Ruth  won the HR title 12 times and hit more HRs than some teams back then (he only won 1 MVP because back then you could only win it once and then were ineligible ).  Gretzky won the scoring title 11 times and won 8 MVPs.  Michael Jordan won 10 scoring titles and 5 MVPs in 13 seasons.  

Brady didn't dominate a sport like these other players did. He was in the same class as Manning, Brees and others from the same era statistically. He has just done it longer.  He had the good fortune to play on very good teams all his life.  He is a winner, but in the ultimate team sport.  

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3 minutes ago, Anthony Jet said:

Not that I would expect him too or would fault him for not doing but I’d love to see him go to a sh*t team and see if/when he could turn it around 

If he were younger I could see it as feasible.  But isn't he 44?  He's not going to have time to turn a team around.  

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Just now, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Comparing Brady to Ruth or Gretzky is a joke.  Brady has played for 22 seasons. His career stats are based on longevity.  He led the league in passing a few times.  He won 3 MVPs.  Ruth  won the HR title 12 times and hit more HRs than some teams back then (he only won 1 MVP because back then you could only win it once and then were ineligible ).  Gretzky won the scoring title 11 times and won 8 MVPs.  Michael Jordan won 10 scoring titles and 5 MVPs in 13 seasons.  

Brady didn't dominate a sport like these other players did. He was in the same class as Manning, Brees and others from the same era statistically. He has just done it longer.  He had the good fortune to play on very good teams all his life.  He is a winner, but in the ultimate team sport.  

I would say having a 22 year career and going to the super bowl a little less than 50% of your seasons over that long of a span is 'dominating'

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1 hour ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Comparing Brady to Ruth or Gretzky is a joke.  Brady has played for 22 seasons. His career stats are based on longevity.  He led the league in passing a few times.  He won 3 MVPs.  Ruth  won the HR title 12 times and hit more HRs than some teams back then (he only won 1 MVP because back then you could only win it once and then were ineligible ).  Gretzky won the scoring title 11 times and won 8 MVPs.  Michael Jordan won 10 scoring titles and 5 MVPs in 13 seasons.  

Brady didn't dominate a sport like these other players did. He was in the same class as Manning, Brees and others from the same era statistically. He has just done it longer.  He had the good fortune to play on very good teams all his life.  He is a winner, but in the ultimate team sport.  

Yeah, don’t listen to that nonsense. 

Brady isn’t in Ruth’s, Gretzky’s or Jordan’s class. 

Ludicrous. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, Hex said:

I would say having a 22 year career and going to the super bowl a little less than 50% of your seasons over that long of a span is 'dominating'

He did all by himself.  Players like Adam Vinitieri, Mike Vrabel,  Willie McGinnest, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman etc and Bill Belichick were just along for the ride.  Leroy Butler's play was inspired by Brady and Carroll and Bevell calling a pass play - Brady.  The Rams forgetting that they had Marshall Faulk on the team was all Brady.  Vinitieri winning the first two SBs with kicks were all Brady.  The Falcons all time choke job was all Brady.  McNabb puking in the huddle - all Brady.  John Casey kicking the kickoff out of bounds - Brady.  Then we have the AFC title game and playoff issues.  Tuck rule - Brady.  Lee Evans dropping the winning TD - Brady. Cundiff's missed FG - Brady.  The refs blowing the Jacksonville fumble return TD dead - Brady.  Dee Ford's finger being offsides - Brady.  Petine deciding to blitz 8 men with 5 seconds left in the half - Brady.  Then let's add in the repeated cheating......  GOAT my A$$.

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1 hour ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Well I guess Gronk is tied with Brady as the GOAT.  Is he the best TE ever because of the rings?  Please.  

That's not the only reason why Brady is the GOAT. Gronk did not revolutionize the game as he went on. He also has had a shorter career.

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25 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

He did all by himself.  Players like Adam Vinitieri, Mike Vrabel,  Willie McGinnest, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman etc and Bill Belichick were just along for the ride.  Leroy Butler's play was inspired by Brady and Carroll and Bevell calling a pass play - Brady.  The Rams forgetting that they had Marshall Faulk on the team was all Brady.  Vinitieri winning the first two SBs with kicks were all Brady.  The Falcons all time choke job was all Brady.  McNabb puking in the huddle - all Brady.  John Casey kicking the kickoff out of bounds - Brady.  Then we have the AFC title game and playoff issues.  Tuck rule - Brady.  Lee Evans dropping the winning TD - Brady. Cundiff's missed FG - Brady.  The refs blowing the Jacksonville fumble return TD dead - Brady.  Dee Ford's finger being offsides - Brady.  Petine deciding to blitz 8 men with 5 seconds left in the half - Brady.  Then let's add in the repeated cheating......  GOAT my A$$.

Based on the way you said that it sounds like you think that the Patriots would have won all of those super bowls without Brady.

Is that what you think, or am I interpreting you incorrectly?

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6 minutes ago, Hex said:

That's not the only reason why Brady is the GOAT. Gronk did not revolutionize the game as he went on. He also has had a shorter career.

How exactly has Brady "revolutionized" the game???  I don't see that at all.  He's not Don Coryell or Bill Walsh.  Is his longevity amazing?  Yes.  Is he smart? Yes.  What has he changed that everybody is copying?  I don't see it.  

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2 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

How exactly has Brady "revolutionized" the game???  I don't see that at all.  He's not Don Coryell or Bill Walsh.  Is his longevity amazing?  Yes.  Is he smart? Yes.  What has he changed that everybody is copying?  I don't see it.  

I don't know. But I watch him and while he isn't always the best player in the game, he's been in the top 3 for essentially 21 years. Pretty much no player can attest to being so consistently good for that long. So he's obviously doing something right.

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17 minutes ago, Hex said:

Based on the way you said that it sounds like you think that the Patriots would have won all of those super bowls without Brady.

Is that what you think, or am I interpreting you incorrectly?

I'm saying that the Pats won some based on plays/players that had nothing to do with Brady.  It's a complicated team sport with 22 players on the field and 45 players on each team.  Brady played less than half of the plays in playoff games and the Super Bowls and many were decided based on plays that had nothing to do with him because he wasn't even on the field.  There is an incredibly huge misconception that QBs win and lose games on their own.  OL block or miss blocks, RBs hit a hole or don't or fumble, WRs get open or don't or catch or drop the ball. Players break tackles or trip. Then you have the defense.  

The thing that sets the Pats apart from every other dynasty is that they were involved in a ridiculous amount of close games.  There were very few blow outs either way.  One or two plays decided many of their key games and most of the time, Brady had nothing to do with those plays.  I think the world views Brady very differently if he loses 2-3 games before the SB ( say the Tuck Rule game, the Evans-Cundiff gift wrapped game, and the Dee Ford finger game). And let's say Seattle gives the ball to Lynch on the goal line and wins and Atlanta does one of 20 things differently and wins.  Then he is down to 2-3 Super Bowls wins and 4-5 losses.  Is he still the GOAT????? He has been incredibly fortunate.  Ridiculously fortunate.  And we aren't even talking about the cheating.  

 

I don't think you measure a player by the number of rings he has in team sports.  Some players play on great teams and some don't.  Derek Jeter is a prime example.  If Jeter played for the KC Royals, he is Craig Biggio or Paul Molitor (they have almost identical careers).  Still in the HOF, but not an all-time great.  Where would Jeter be if he didn't play with Rivera or dozens of other players that contributed just as much to the titles?

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2 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

I'm saying that the Pats won some based on plays/players that had nothing to do with Brady.  It's a complicated team sport with 22 players on the field and 45 players on each team.  Brady played less than half of the plays in playoff games and the Super Bowls and many were decided based on plays that had nothing to do with him because he wasn't even on the field.  There is an incredibly huge misconception that QBs win and lose games on their own.  OL block or miss blocks, RBs hit a hole or don't or fumble, WRs get open or don't or catch or drop the ball. Players break tackles or trip. Then you have the defense.  

The thing that sets the Pats apart from every other dynasty is that they were involved in a ridiculous amount of close games.  There were very few blow outs either way.  One or two plays decided many of their key games and most of the time, Brady had nothing to do with those plays.  I think the world views Brady very differently if he loses 2-3 games before the SB ( say the Tuck Rule game, the Evans-Cundiff gift wrapped game, and the Dee Ford finger game). And let's say Seattle gives the ball to Lynch on the goal line and wins and Atlanta does one of 20 things differently and wins.  Then he is down to 2-3 Super Bowls wins and 4-5 losses.  Is he still the GOAT????? He has been incredibly fortunate.  Ridiculously fortunate.  And we aren't even talking about the cheating.  

He has been incredibly fortunate. But luck occurring many times over a space of time = more than just luck. You can argue that any player won something because the other team played badly, or because the refs made a bad call. This applies to pretty much every player that has ever played.

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10 minutes ago, Hex said:

I don't know. But I watch him and while he isn't always the best player in the game, he's been in the top 3 for essentially 21 years. Pretty much no player can attest to being so consistently good for that long. So he's obviously doing something right.

The GOAT is the best player though.  He is not the GOAT.He's just been doing it a high level for a long time.  He is the GOAT at taking care of his body.  That is if it has all been legal, which, given his history, is quite questionable.  

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