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How much patience should a team have with a new Head Coach?


jetstream23
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as I always say, 3 years. If a 'rebuild' is longer than 3 years to get to the playoffs, it already failed so don't fukin let Mac try to rebuild his own rebuild. 
Never understood the allowance of a second rebuild when your talking this kind of lettuce.

.... Richard Todd, Ken OBrien, Chad Pennington, Mark Sanchez, Genope, Sam Darnold ...

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34 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

The NFL today today is ridiculous. HCs are fired too fast. Judge is a good example, he was revered last year (too much so IMO) and was ripped this year (also too much so). In the days prior to social media and 24 hour sports TV and radio HCs were given patience and time. A prime eample is Walt Michaels who did a great job building a terrible team into a winner. Today he would have been fired before he succeeded:

1977: 3-11

1978:8-8

1979: 8-8

1980: 4-12

1981: 11-5-1 made playoffs

1982: 6-3 (8-4, including playoffs) AFC Title game

Today he probably would have been fired after the 1980 season, and posters on this board would have been complaining in 1977 for going 3-11 with abad team.

 

 

He didn’t build a great team and he got fired because he refused to get help.   Very good team, not great.  

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How much patience should a team have with a new Head Coach?

As much as they earn.

"This one guy sucked early then did good, so our guy will too" may be the single most overused fallacy in football fandom.

For every Bill Bellichek there are hundreds of Adam Gase's.

If your Head Coach sucks early and loses alot, the odds are you have a Gase, and all waiting will do it lose more games and slow up the hiring of the next guy.

The same goes for QB's, frankly.  

2 years, max.  Prove something to me within 2 years, or goodbye.  Doesn't necessarily have to be wins and loses alone, for coaches big increases in offensive/defense ranking, for QB's competative production, etc.  But got to show me something to warrant patience beyond year 2 for me.

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1 hour ago, Biggs said:

It depends.  If the HC sucks you move on.  If he’s good and the team stinks you stick with him.  Record is secondary. 
 

One thing we know.   The 49ers don’t miss Saleh or Lefluer.  

One thing we don't know is what Saleh is going to turn out to be yet. We already knew that LeFleur wasn't the one in SF that was calling all the offense in the first place. He was a hire that had a question mark. So far after the first 5 games, he's proven to be a pretty good one, and hopefully will get better with experience. One can only hope that Saleh is a leader of men. He doesn't have to be best DC we've ever had, because that's not his job. His job is to be the best HC we've ever had. If he can't lead this team in year 3 and past to the playoff's then we'll be needing to look elsewhere again.

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32 minutes ago, Biggs said:

He didn’t build a great team and he got fired because he refused to get help.   Very good team, not great.  

He took over an awful team and, because the ownership was not pressured by the media and fans, he was allowed to have a long term rebuilding that worked. He was fired for non-football reasons.  This, to me, was a turning point in Jets franchise history.  

 

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3 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

He took over an awful team and beacuse the ownership was not pressured by the media and fans he was allowed to have a long term rebuilding that worked. He was fired for non-football reasons.  This, to me, was a turning point in Jets franchise history.  

 

Leon Hess was his own man.  He wouldn’t be pressured by anything.  Good or bad he had a spine.  Woody doesn’t have a spine.   

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6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

As much as they earn.

"This one guy sucked early then did good, so our guy will too" may be the single most overused fallacy in football fandom.

For every Bill Bellichek there are hundreds of Adam Gase's.

If your Head Coach sucks early and loses alot, the odds are you have a Gase, and all waiting will do it lose more games and slow up the hiring of the next guy.

The same goes for QB's, frankly.  

2 years, max.  Prove something to me within 2 years, or goodbye.  Doesn't necessarily have to be wins and loses alone, for coaches big increases in offensive/defense ranking, for QB's competative production, etc.  But got to show me something to warrant patience beyond year 2 for me.

Agreed.  At least show me something in 2 years.  Saleh's first year he didn't show much.  He has a lot to prove next year.

It's easy to have a terrible record for 2 straight years.  The hard part is turning the thing around.  When Parcells got to the Jets after a 1-15 season, he almost got us to the playoffs immediately.  And in 2 years we were in the AFC CG (and with castoff Vinny as our starting QB).  I know that's more the exception than the rule but, again, at least show me something.

Fwiw, I have some hope for ZW for next year.  I'm not as sold on Saleh but will keep an open mind.

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2-3 Years is usually fair. 

Making the Judge comparison doesnt work. The Giants were actually regressing from his first year and he was terrible with the media. 

If your team is getting worse, not better, then there is no need for patience. If Saleh wins only 4 games next year, how does everyone feel the conversation should go? 

Finally, like tons of other coaches, do we REALLY think the Bengals got to where they are because of Zak Taylor or because they have this guy playing Burrow at QB with a guy named Chase catching his balls. 

I'm a believer the roster will always be more indicitve of how many wins a teams get over the guy with the headset. 

Bottom line, 2 years you prob know what you have in the coach. The Benglas made a decision they were comfortable with him taking their 2nd year QB into the next season. It worked out. Because if the Bengals did poorly this year, he would of been fired. 

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7 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Leon Hess was his own man.  He wouldn’t be pressured by anything.  Good or bad he had a spine.  Woody doesn’t have a spine.   

You are correct about Leon but,in fairness, the times were different back then.  Leon today might have felt pressure to make a change because Michaels would have been roasted by the media and Fan Boards like this.  Back then none of that existed. I remember years ago when no HCs were fired after a season ended. Today there a good 5-7 annually and we even have what's known as Black Monday for the anticipated firings.

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1 hour ago, Biggs said:

It depends.  If the HC sucks you move on.  If he’s good and the team stinks you stick with him.  Record is secondary. 
 

One thing we know.   The 49ers don’t miss Saleh or Lefluer.  

Personally, many of the players miss Salehs’ energy and game planning. 49ers haven’t skipped a beat because of Shanehan’s system and a talented front 7 on D. 

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26 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Finally, like tons of other coaches, do we REALLY think the Bengals got to where they are because of Zak Taylor or because they have this guy playing Burrow at QB with a guy named Chase catching his balls. 

I'm a believer the roster will always be more indicitve of how many wins a teams get over the guy with the headset. 

On point! Get Zach right with good OL play and a true #1 WR and get the D fixed and the culture changes. 
 

Which direction this rebuild goes depends on JD. Can’t have a bad draft. He needs to hit on all 9 picks and get major contributions from the first 6 picks and get quality depth with the other 3. Then it’s the CS responsibility to develop and provide opportunities to succeed

Hoping JD can maneuver in the draft to continue acquiring future picks in ‘23. We are 2 quality drafts from contending if Zach develops into a quality top 12 QB. 

NO MORE 2020 drafts!!!!

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35 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Agreed.  At least show me something in 2 years.  Saleh's first year he didn't show much.  He has a lot to prove next year.

It's easy to have a terrible record for 2 straight years.  The hard part is turning the thing around.  When Parcells got to the Jets after a 1-15 season, he almost got us to the playoffs immediately.  And in 2 years we were in the AFC CG (and with castoff Vinny as our starting QB).  I know that's more the exception than the rule but, again, at least show me something.

Fwiw, I have some hope for ZW for next year.  I'm not as sold on Saleh but will keep an open mind.

I was happy with Saleh at the end of the year.   He’s not throwing players under the bus to the media , but he is benching the players who are not performing (Mims, Perine).   He had a decimated team and had them playing well at the end of the year against playoff teams who were playing for something (Bills, Bucs).   I think he has been good but there is always room for improvement.

     But I still believe for coaches it comes down to players.    If you don’t have the players, you won’t win.  
 

 

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42 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

He took over an awful team and, because the ownership was not pressured by the media and fans, he was allowed to have a long term rebuilding that worked. He was fired for non-football reasons.  This, to me, was a turning point in Jets franchise history.  

 

He absolutely had to be fired.  He earned getting fired.  Hess wanted to retain him and offered him an extension if he was willing to get help.

The team was constantly under pressure by the media.  There was pressure to build a stadium, pressure to win.  Hess turned it all off.  He was a self made man and nobody told him what to do.  
 

kraft is a self made man.  Woody is a tool.  No conviction at all.  

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1 hour ago, Biggs said:

He didn’t build a great team and he got fired because he refused to get help.   Very good team, not great.  

That team was a real QB away from being great.

People judge the coaches,to me it is more the GM.  If you have a no talent roster, you won't win a lot of games.

You also have to look at the team.  Is the coach playing a lot of young players?  Are they improving?  Are they quitting in mid November or are they playing hard the whole season.

As a fan, nothing bothered me more than watching my team lose, and the HC refusing to play young players to see if they were any good.

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13 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Which direction this rebuild goes depends on JD. Can’t have a bad draft. He needs to hit on all 9 picks and get major contributions from the first 6 picks and get quality depth with the other 3. Then it’s the CS responsibility to develop and provide opportunities to succeed

I agree with this a lot, but to he fair no one hits on all 9 draft picks.

The O would look much better with a real TE, and extra WR, better line play.

The D will look better with real players as well.

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34 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

He took over an awful team and, because the ownership was not pressured by the media and fans, he was allowed to have a long term rebuilding that worked. He was fired for non-football reasons.  This, to me, was a turning point in Jets franchise history.  

 


Too answer question I think circumstances dictate on how long a coach should be given. For example if a coach takes a perennial contender and runs it into the ground he’s out within 2 years. Now with the Jets situation I think Saleh and staff should be given 3 full years providing that team shows marked improvement. In that span HC will have his type of players his systems will be in place. Second year should show an upward trend with a few clunker games to be expected as team starts to learn what it takes to be a consistent winning team If by the end of third year no discernible improvement has been made he’s gotta go 

Also Waldo was a really really good coach. That team was just hitting its stride under him with more room to grow and improve They were about to go on a period of success and IMO they win two Lombardi trophies in a 4 year span under Michael’s 

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Saleh

1 hour ago, kevinc855 said:

2-3 Years is usually fair. 

Making the Judge comparison doesnt work. The Giants were actually regressing from his first year and he was terrible with the media. 

If your team is getting worse, not better, then there is no need for patience. If Saleh wins only 4 games next year, how does everyone feel the conversation should go? 

Finally, like tons of other coaches, do we REALLY think the Bengals got to where they are because of Zak Taylor or because they have this guy playing Burrow at QB with a guy named Chase catching his balls. 

I'm a believer the roster will always be more indicitve of how many wins a teams get over the guy with the headset. 

Bottom line, 2 years you prob know what you have in the coach. The Benglas made a decision they were comfortable with him taking their 2nd year QB into the next season. It worked out. Because if the Bengals did poorly this year, he would of been fired. 

Judge was one of the oddest scenarios I have seen. He got fired because of his own stupidity. Had he not went on that 11 minute rant and not called those two dumb goal line sneaks hes probably still the Giants coach.

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It depends on the situation. For instance Mike Tomlin inherited a SB team with a franchise QB. He walked into an optimum situation, which to his credit he didn't ruin, but he didn't have to do much either to be successful in short time. Whereas Saleh inherited a sh*t show that had just gone 2-14, essentially had nothing in place (players, systems, functional org/culture), and understandably should take longer to succeed (at least record wise). 

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2 hours ago, JetsFanatic said:

The NFL today today is ridiculous. HCs are fired too fast. Judge is a good example, he was revered last year (too much so IMO) and was ripped this year (also too much so). In the days prior to social media and 24 hour sports TV and radio HCs were given patience and time. A prime eample is Walt Michaels who did a great job building a terrible team into a winner. Today he would have been fired before he succeeded:

1977: 3-11

1978:8-8

1979: 8-8

1980: 4-12

1981: 11-5-1 made playoffs

1982: 6-3 (8-4, including playoffs) AFC Title game

Today he probably would have been fired after the 1980 season, and posters on this board would have been complaining in 1977 for going 3-11 with abad team.

 

 

Joe judge got himself fired with his dumbass remarks. 

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Depends on the scenario. If they are taking over an established team like the cowboys with McCarthy then you expect playoff wins. If he doesn’t win within 2 years then he’s on the hot seat 
 

when you are building from the ground up like how Shannahan or zac Taylor or say saleh then 3 years. In the 3rd year you should be at the very minimum be competing for a playoff spot  

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16 minutes ago, tfine said:

Thats because we live a world dominated by the media and everything is binary…you are either great or you stink. There is no such thing as building or progress anymore…..it’s either get it done or find someone else that will.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

Its become a world of instant gratification.  

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50 minutes ago, chirorob said:

I agree with this a lot, but to he fair no one hits on all 9 draft picks.

The O would look much better with a real TE, and extra WR, better line play.

The D will look better with real players as well.

Desperate times require miraculous performances. The cards need to fall just right where talent meets need!
 

No. 1: 1974 Pittsburgh Steelers 

During the 1974 NFL Draft, the Pittsburgh Steelers would draft WR Lynn Swann in Round 1, LB Jack Lambert in Round 2, WR John Stallworth in Round 4, and C Mike Webster in Round 5, and they also signed S Donnie Shell as undrafted free agent. All five would later be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

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1 hour ago, 32EBoozer said:

Desperate times require miraculous performances. The cards need to fall just right where talent meets need!
 

No. 1: 1974 Pittsburgh Steelers 

During the 1974 NFL Draft, the Pittsburgh Steelers would draft WR Lynn Swann in Round 1, LB Jack Lambert in Round 2, WR John Stallworth in Round 4, and C Mike Webster in Round 5, and they also signed S Donnie Shell as undrafted free agent. All five would later be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Id settle for a draft like the ravens had.

HOF left tackle at #4.   HOF middle linebacker with their 2nd first rounder.

You know.  Minus the murdery stuff.

Plus, the Steelers blew both of their 6th round draft picks that year.

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