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Josh Allen should be MVP


LAD_Brooklyn
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12 minutes ago, LAD_Brooklyn said:

Allen finished his rookie season off highly productive yet not in a conventional way. I remember him accumulating the most fantasy points from week 11 to 16. That was thanks to him using him legs as he nearly finished with four 100 yard games rushing (99, 135, 101, 95 rushing yards). During that time his passing was progressing from disastrous to below average  to average performance.

Ah, he was disgusting in week 1 the following year. Had like 5 turnovers 

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23 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Fact is, Zach is going to be the uncontested starter next year.  So, he'll get at least another year to grow and develop.  But, while the Burrows, Mahomes, and Herberts are rare, I think they are becoming less and less rare as rule changes and college offenses have made the need for longer term development less glaring.  Also Mac Jones, who I'm not high on, came in and played a high level (I think he is who he is already, and the problems are physical ability from here).  In fact, it seems like more and more young QBs are "getting it" early on.  Those that don't, generally don't get it later, at least not in more recent history.  Allen is the rare, extreme exception/outlier.  Truth is, there isn't a lot of precedent for someone having as bad a rookie campaign as Wilson, and later becoming good.  We can certainly hope that changes.

I think a bigger argument can be made in where these QBs end up and the talent around them. The difference between Herbert, mahomes, and burrow and say Wilson, Darnold, fields, Lawrence and etc should be minimal as far as raw talent goes. But when you look at the young qbs who come out guns blazing, it becomes clear that the guys who are succeeding are the guys with talent around them. The guys who are foundering and struggling don’t have much support.

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1 minute ago, extmenace said:

I think a bigger argument can be made in where these QBs end up and the talent around them. The difference between Herbert, mahomes, and burrow and say Wilson, Darnold, fields, Lawrence and etc should be minimal as far as raw talent goes. But when you look at the young qbs who come out guns blazing, it becomes clear that the guys who are succeeding are the guys with talent around them. The guys who are foundering and struggling don’t have much support.

I think, "they're all largely the same except for their situation" is a terrible argument that is often proven as such when someone like Darnold, Sanchez, Geno, etc go somewhere else and still stink, as they all did.

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33 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Fact is, Zach is going to be the uncontested starter next year.  So, he'll get at least another year to grow and develop.  But, while the Burrows, Mahomes, and Herberts are rare, I think they are becoming less and less rare as rule changes and college offenses have made the need for longer term development less glaring.  Also Mac Jones, who I'm not high on, came in and played a high level (I think he is who he is already, and the problems are physical ability from here).  In fact, it seems like more and more young QBs are "getting it" early on.  Those that don't, generally don't get it later, at least not in more recent history.  Allen is the rare, extreme exception/outlier.  Truth is, there isn't a lot of precedent for someone having as bad a rookie campaign as Wilson, and later becoming good.  We can certainly hope that changes.

I generally agree with this and have made these points before.

I do want to see if Zach Wilson can have a "second year leap" next year though. Playing at Alabama, LSU, Oregon, etc. probably had most of those guys more ready for the NFL than BYU -- I think the speed of the game and culture shock was probably different for Zach than guys like Burrow and Mac Jones who played at LSU, Ohio State, Bama, etc.

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38 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I generally agree with this and have made these points before.

I do want to see if Zach Wilson can have a "second year leap" next year though. Playing at Alabama, LSU, Oregon, etc. probably had most of those guys more ready for the NFL than BYU -- I think the speed of the game and culture shock was probably different for Zach than guys like Burrow and Mac Jones who played at LSU, Ohio State, Bama, etc.

I don’t think the physical speed mattered much in this case.  It wasn’t fluff he loved film in college - he knew defenders responsibilities without thinking about it.  

I think he got fooled early and stopped trusting his eyes.   I don’t think the “throw everything at him” approach to start the season helped, but I understand why they tried it.  
 

The Tampa game gives good reason to hope for a solid season.  Give the kid some weapons, he’s ready to use them.  

I think he will have a nice jump in progress next season (doing a good job of keeping it simple).  At some point it will become second nature and then we will see what NFL Zach Wilson will look like. 

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3 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

I don’t think the physical speed mattered much in this case.  It wasn’t fluff he loved film in college - he knew defenders responsibilities without thinking about it.  

I'm talking about the speed of the game and the defense. He clearly wasn't ready for it -- to quickly and decisively throw into smaller windows.

In college he often had lots of time and/or open receivers. Threw a lot of 50/50 balls. Harder to do that with the speed of NFL defenses. Everything is faster.

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1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I'm talking about the speed of the game and the defense. He clearly wasn't ready for it -- to quickly and decisively throw into smaller windows.

In college he often had lots of time and/or open receivers. Threw a lot of 50/50 balls. Harder to do that with the speed of NFL defenses. Everything is faster.

Agreed.  But he tore up the easy preseason and camp stuff, so it was time to pay the price.  Being on the field had to be worth at least 2 seasons of watching.  
 

They weren’t 50/50 balls in college cause he’d watch which side the defender was going to be on so he’d make them 80/20 balls with no picks.   
 

His BYU receivers were not the athletes he had this season but they were better at catching the ball than the Jets.

New weapons will open that back up.  Lots of the drops this season were on those plays so they stopped calling them.  A big time #1 WR will catch some deep balls.  
 

Corey Davis can be that guy if he chooses to be, but I’d like to see them add another WR in that mold anyway.   Moore would pair great with 2 of those guys.  

And if they add a real TE?

nodding yes the oc GIF by CraveTV

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1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

Sure, but what Allen improved on between years 1 and 3 wasn't any of that stuff, it was his accuracy and decision-making. 

Right, because he already had those talents. Zach doesn’t. 

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5 minutes ago, Facts said:

Right, because he already had those talents. Zach doesn’t. 

Eh, Wilson has plenty of physical talent. Plenty. He doesn't have Josh Allen's upside but basically no one does. 

Wilson just has to put it together mentally. 

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1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I generally agree with this and have made these points before.

I do want to see if Zach Wilson can have a "second year leap" next year though. Playing at Alabama, LSU, Oregon, etc. probably had most of those guys more ready for the NFL than BYU -- I think the speed of the game and culture shock was probably different for Zach than guys like Burrow and Mac Jones who played at LSU, Ohio State, Bama, etc.

Well, you'll get your chance.

But, if what you're saying is true, you really need to question the wisdom of not having a more competent back-up in there last year, and that's with ignoring the questionable nature of taking a QB at 2 with these issues.  I worry Douglas just fell victim to the latest late rising QB.  Hopefully that leap comes, however.

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1 minute ago, ZachEY said:

. I worry Douglas just fell victim to the latest late rising QB.  Hopefully that leap comes, however.

I don't think this is a thing, just like I don't think GMs are swayed by draft gurus or media group think.

IMHO, I think GMs, especially like a guy like JD who has a football background, will make a decision based on what they see. Not any third party noise.  

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1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

I have no idea what that feels like because our seasons have been pretty much over before they start. Other than  maybe Squibb kicking that last regular time kick off you guys did enough to win. Mahomes is just silly sauce. 

This pretty much sums things up.  If he goes on to win his second SB (with 3 appearances) in his fourth year of starting he is going to start putting to bed all of the raging debate over who the GOAT is.  Because unless something changes, he's going to shatter every record in the books well before he is old enough to have an AARP card.

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7 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

I don't think this is a thing, just like I don't think GMs are swayed by draft gurus or media group think.

IMHO, I think GMs, especially like a guy like JD who has a football background, will make a decision based on what they see. Not any third party noise.  

I sure as hell hope you're right.  That said, QBs always rise late, because the desperation for one is real.  It's not crazy to think that Joe Douglas thought he got the 2nd best QB in the draft and also that 2 is high for Wilson, considering that issues.

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1 minute ago, ZachEY said:

I sure as hell hope you're right.  That said, QBs always rise late, because the desperation for one is real.  It's not crazy to think that Joe Douglas thought he got the 2nd best QB in the draft and also that 2 is high for Wilson, considering that issues.

Yes and yes.  But I find it funny that some folks here say to a certitude that we do things based on what someone else is doing.

Apparently, we drafted James Morgan because Belli was going to draft him and we had to nip that in the bud. Or that we need to make draft moves because Belli is planning something to outmanuever...lol...the Jets.  Like he gives us a second thought.

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37 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Well, you'll get your chance.

But, if what you're saying is true, you really need to question the wisdom of not having a more competent back-up in there last year, and that's with ignoring the questionable nature of taking a QB at 2 with these issues.  I worry Douglas just fell victim to the latest late rising QB.  Hopefully that leap comes, however.

Yup, and I did question it. I think most of us did.

Especially when not having one led to a trade for Joe Flacco.

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Just now, UntouchableCrew said:

Yup, and I did question it. I think most of us did.

Especially when not having one led to a trade for Joe Flacco.

The funny thing is that the HC loves Flacco and it sounds like he’s going to be the backup again next year. 

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14 hours ago, Cut Jet Penalty Makers said:

ZW will NEVER play anywhere near this level...it's the sad truth.

I beg to differ - if ZW played against a team with so many blown coverages he would have easily made those passes. There were more blown assignments by the KC defense in one night than a weeks’s worth at The Bunny Ranch

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6 hours ago, Facts said:

The Bills coaching staff owe Josh Allen an apology.

That was one of the greatest postseason performances by a QB in NFL history and he’s going home.

Peter King wrote in his column today that Allen had 16 drives in the playoffs and 12 ended in TD’s. Wtf!? 

Boohoohoo poor josh Allen. I guess Todd Bowles owes Brady an apology because not all the defense knew the play call when Stafford hit Kupp 

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2 hours ago, Cyberjet said:

I beg to differ - if ZW played against a team with so many blown coverages he would have easily made those passes. There were more blown assignments by the KC defense in one night than a weeks’s worth at The Bunny Ranch

Very fair point, but why was that.  I think what really separates JA from the rest is the power with which he runs the ball.  He can pick up 7 yards whenever he wants and when he's scrambling around defenders are bouncing off him.. This puts so much pressure on the defense and allows receivers to get wide open.  JA made a few tight window throws but most of his long completions were throws that most above average QB's make 9 out of 10 times.

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15 minutes ago, cat999 said:

Very fair point, but why was that.  I think what really separates JA from the rest is the power with which he runs the ball.  He can pick up 7 yards whenever he wants and when he's scrambling around defenders are bouncing off him.. This puts so much pressure on the defense and allows receivers to get wide open.  JA made a few tight window throws but most of his long completions were throws that most above average QB's make 9 out of 10 times.

Fair statements 

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7 hours ago, ZachEY said:

I sure as hell hope you're right.  That said, QBs always rise late, because the desperation for one is real.  It's not crazy to think that Joe Douglas thought he got the 2nd best QB in the draft and also that 2 is high for Wilson, considering that issues.

This is fair. 

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7 hours ago, Cyberjet said:

I beg to differ - if ZW played against a team with so many blown coverages he would have easily made those passes. There were more blown assignments by the KC defense in one night than a weeks’s worth at The Bunny Ranch

What Josh Allen did was a lot more than hitting open receivers on "blown coverages." If that's how you quantify it then you are clearly not paying attention. That's what my doubts about ZW refer to.

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22 hours ago, Cut Jet Penalty Makers said:

ZW will NEVER play anywhere near this level...it's the sad truth.

It's beyond ridiculous to make a definitive statement like this after someone's rookie year...

Especially considering one of the guys you mentioned rookie year was on par with Wilsons.

Additionally,  one of the NFC Championship game teams in Stafford had rookie years VERY SIMILAR to Zach Wilson's...The other 3 barely or didn't even play their rookie years.

That is the sad truth for all y'all dug in on your ZW hate...

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4 hours ago, Embrace the Suck said:

troll GIF

I am getting the same vibe. 

 

8 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

It's beyond ridiculous to make a definitive statement like this after someone's rookie year...

Especially considering one of the guys you mentioned rookie year was on par with Wilsons.

Two of the four QB's in the upcoming Championship games had rookie years VERY SIMILAR to Zach Wilson's...

That is the sad truth for all y'all dug in on your ZW hate...

I would not waste a lot of breath here. 

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16 minutes ago, Cut Jet Penalty Makers said:

What Josh Allen did was a lot more than hitting open receivers on "blown coverages." If that's how you quantify it then you are clearly not paying attention. That's what my doubts about ZW refer to.

I apologize- I just thought you said that ZW would never play anywhere near this level so I brought up the wide open receivers - I missed the post where you spelled it out in detail. My bad 

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