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Judging QB's on wins and losses is the dumbest thing we do as Football fans


JiFapono
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Just now, Biggs said:

Agree except in Mahomes case.  He's done enough already to be in the HOF.   Gale Sayers is in the HOF with very little resume.  Mahomes has done enough to date to be a first ballot HOF QB and is certainly in the conversation as one of the best ever.  

I agree.  But there's a very good chance Mahomes will be going to his 3rd Superbowl and he's made it to 4 straight conference championship games.  Plus he has a 50-13 regular season record.  So while he is undoubtedly on schedule to be one of the greats in the history of the game, he also has built up quite a resume already.  

 

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You're definitely not wrong but it's just the way it is. QB's get the credit and the blame so it balances out some.

You look at the hit Rodgers' legacy has taken in the last 12 months compared to Brady when Rodgers soundly outplayed him the only time they met in the playoffs. Tampa were better than Green Bay day, Brady wasn't the better QB.

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20 hours ago, JiFapono said:

It's confusing when you go back and bring up a former point instead of responding directly to the point I made to you, but I digress and will answer now that I understand what you are saying. 

 

Similar to wins and losses, stats dont tell the whole story.  Brady just attempted the most passes in league history, so naturally he compiled more stats than the next guy, but efficiency wise he wasnt even top 5.   For example, Matt Stafford attempted 119 less passes, only threw 2 less TD's.  Herbert was the only other 5k passer this season, guess who was #2 in attempts?

Again, I dont know how anyone can sit here straight faced and say that Brady is better than Mahomes.  That is absolutely insane to me.  You're welcome to your own opinion, but Mahomes is so much more talented it's not really close and I dont need 25 years of compiling stats and wins to tell me that story.

Stafford attempted 119 less passes and threw 5 more INT's than Brady.  

Brady, in 2007 when the rules were a little less favorable to what they are now put up better numbers than Mahomes put up in his best year.  Even with his high number of attempts he is still in the top 10 in every passing catagory and the guy is well past his prime.   The fact that at 44 he's in the conversation is astounding.

Brady for most of his career didn't have the kind of Offensive talent Mahomes has.  When he did he put up tremendous numbers. 

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9 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Stafford attempted 119 less passes and threw 5 more INT's than Brady.  

Brady, in 2007 when the rules were a little less favorable to what they are now put up better numbers than Mahomes put up in his best year.  Even with his high number of attempts he is still in the top 10 in every passing catagory and the guy is well past his prime.   The fact that at 44 he's in the conversation is astounding.

Brady for most of his career didn't have the kind of Offensive talent Mahomes has.  When he did he put up tremendous numbers. 

Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Gronk, Fournette...that is next level loaded.

Randy Moss?  He was pretty good too.

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4 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Gronk, Fournette...that is next level loaded.

Randy Moss?  He was pretty good too.

He's not in his prime now.  When he was in a tougher league to pass in with Moss he's numbers were better than Mahomes best year with Hill and Kelche. 

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23 hours ago, JiFapono said:

Sure, but on the other side of the coin, the 49'ers offense didnt put up a single TD.  Rodgers is the villain but I dont hear anyone saying anything about how Jimmy G. came up short.

Because everyone expected Jimmy G to come up short.  The 49ers traded up for a QB and might be letting Jimmy G go this offseason because they expect him to come up short, too.  And the 49ers also were playing on the road after having won a tough road playoff game 6 days earlier.

With 2 weeks of practice, at home in Lambeau, as the # 1 seed...yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable to have expected a little better out of Rodgers.  

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22 hours ago, JiFapono said:

Well, yeah, that goes unsaid.  My point is more so along the line of Football is the ultimate team sport, yet we only weigh Wins and Losses on QB's.  It's just bizarre to me for some reason.

 

Pitchers and Hockey Goalies have W-L records, too.

It's definitely not the most important way to judge a QB.  But it's part of the equation.  No position has more impact on a team's ability to win and lose in their respective sports than QB's, Pitchers, and Goalies.  And I'd argue that QB's have more of an impact on wins and losses than starting pitchers and goalies.  Especially with the way the game has evolved.

Teams also spend up to 25 % of their salary caps on QB's, on a roster with 53 guys.  The top 11 highest paid players in the sport are QB's, and of the top 20 highest-paid players in the NFL, 15 of those are QB's.  If the NFL is the ultimate team sport, then certainly we need to question why so many teams are spending so much of their precious cap space on one player, no?  But until teams stop doing this, then it's also fair to lay a substantial amount of the credit for wins and losses on the QB.  Unless your QB is on a rookie deal, your QB is the highest-paid employee on a team's payroll and its not close.  

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QB's performance is critical to win games but it's still a team sports.  One other area that I think is more important to win games is 'team defense'

Since some of the posters were debating who is a better QB between Brady and Rodgers, here are their team defense stats.  Just a food for thoughts.

Brady: His team defense ranked in top 10, 18 out of 21 years.  The years his team won SB, team defense were ranked 6, 1, 2, 8, 1, 7, 8.  In average, his team defense ranked 7th in all years, and 5th in years his team won SB.

Rodgers: His team defense ranked in top 10, 3 out of 14 years.  2011, the year his team won SB, team defense was ranked 2nd.  Overall his team defense ranked 15th in 14 years.  quite average.

To me it's apples and oranges when you try to compare the two.  There are so many other criteria that goes into winning games whether its regular season games or playoff games.  Yes, Brady has the most number of rings among QBs but is he the GOAT?  I personally don't think so as he always had good teams backing him up.  Plus, he had Belichicken all these years who knows how to coach as much as I hate him. 

GOAT, no.  LOAT, yes.

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2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Because everyone expected Jimmy G to come up short.  The 49ers traded up for a QB and might be letting Jimmy G go this offseason because they expect him to come up short, too.  And the 49ers also were playing on the road after having won a tough road playoff game 6 days earlier.

With 2 weeks of practice, at home in Lambeau, as the # 1 seed...yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable to have expected a little better out of Rodgers.  

Agreed and I've made no excuses for him, I just think it's funny how he's being dragged through it for his worst game of the season in a game where he wasnt what you expect, but he was better than the other guy. 

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2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Pitchers and Hockey Goalies have W-L records, too.

It's definitely not the most important way to judge a QB.  But it's part of the equation.  No position has more impact on a team's ability to win and lose in their respective sports than QB's, Pitchers, and Goalies.  And I'd argue that QB's have more of an impact on wins and losses than starting pitchers and goalies.  Especially with the way the game has evolved.

Teams also spend up to 25 % of their salary caps on QB's, on a roster with 53 guys.  The top 11 highest paid players in the sport are QB's, and of the top 20 highest-paid players in the NFL, 15 of those are QB's.  If the NFL is the ultimate team sport, then certainly we need to question why so many teams are spending so much of their precious cap space on one player, no?  But until teams stop doing this, then it's also fair to lay a substantial amount of the credit for wins and losses on the QB.  Unless your QB is on a rookie deal, your QB is the highest-paid employee on a team's payroll and its not close.  

You're arguing importance, that's not what this is about.  I understand how important they are, I just dont like the emphasis on the W's and L's when they literally, leave the field. 

At least baseball has looked past it and realized there is more to it than just W's and L's.  Case in point DeGrom.  Everyone one looks past his W/L record because we understand how much goes into it.

And I've long argued that next to QB's, goalie is the most important position in sports.  Different than a QB, and pitcher for that matter, a goalie doesnt leave the ice and the only other measurement is saves, so I do actually kind of understand it with Goalies.

QB's?  No.  I dont.  Josh Allen didnt lose the game the other night but it's goes down on his permanent record which if he ends his career in the conversation, will be used against him and I think that approach is silly.  

 

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52 minutes ago, Jet2020 said:

How many SBs does Marino have?

If he had won 2 SB he would be in the conversation as the greatest ever.  Had he lost at home twice with the best team in football and stunk he would be further tarnished.  

Nobody is arguing Rodgers isn't going into the HOF.  Were only arguing sucking in a big spot with the better team at home after a bye doesn't get you in the Conversation with Montana and Brady. 

Lets play winning and lossing is a dumb way to judge HC's and GM's.

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