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Warfish
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The Bills #1 Defense was beaten by Offense.
Offense wins in the modern NFL. 
Even the best Defense cannot defeat the best Offenses.
The Jets need to build Offense first and foremost. 
A legit weapon on Offense > anything on Defense, especially given our investment in Zach Wilson last draft.
Prove me wrong.  If the Bills can't stop the Chiefs Offense, what on earth makes you think the Jets Defense ever will?
Our only path forward is to outscore opponents, the modern NFL way to winning.


The Bills completely changed their philosophy for KC’s last 2 regulation scores. If you play prevent against certain elite QB’s you’re going to get gashed. Mahomes is one of those QB’s and McDermott and Frazier should have know that and played far more aggressively. The D basically parted the seas and let KC right through.


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1 hour ago, NYJets43 said:

I disagree.

According to Michael Porter the best strategies are ones that involve doing something unique that your competition can’t replicate. 
 

The Jets will never beat teams like the Chiefs and Bills by trying to match them on offense. Wilson is not going be Allen and Mahomes-those guys are a different breed. 
 

I personally think the Jets best chance to contend is to build a nasty defense that will gives these guys problems and compliment that with an Efficient offense that consistently moves the chains. 
 

The Bills have a good defense, but they don’t really have game wreckers. Mahomes struggled against them early in the year and made adjustments this round. 

It doesnt have to be a strong offense though the air. Tennessee, SF, and Baltimore have built consistent winners with amazing running games.

Being able to run at will can be our unique ticket to success. We’re a nasty RG and Becton getting his act together from being able to do just that. 

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There are multiple ways to win.

Obviously you want to have a quarterback. If you get that down, and he can make quick decisions - it's about playmakers. Pass protection only gets you so far if guys don't get open - and the short pass game is kind of used like the run game in the current NFL.

Note, a lot of this weekend's playmakers were drafted outside the first round - even the better guys who didn't have huge games. Hill, Kelce, Diggs, Adams, Samuel, Kittle, Kupp, Brown. Lots of superstar players. Davis who had the monster game, too. Chase, Evans, Beckham all first round guys.

Obviously protection is important as well.

Defensively, you want to impact the quarterback. True interior defensive line pressure is awesome but a unicorn. Edge guys where you want to stack. The Rams have them, Niners have them, Bengals improved with Hendrickson. Rams also have Donald and Jones is great for the Chiefs. The Bucs obviously did a great job pressuring Mahomes last year in the title game, Packers' defense took a jump when they added the Smith's a couple offseasons ago, Titans' defensive line caused havoc for Burrow all game, and the Bills have invested heavily in their front.

The Jets...lack playmakers and edge rushers and whether or not they have a franchise quarterback is to be determined.

I understand the desire to develop a good run game to take pressure off the quarterback but you're never going to develop one if you have no receivers who can beat man coverage. That is a must. Edge defenders are useful for impacting other quarterbacks and you can also stack a ton of them, add guys who can kick inside - just can't have too many.

Improving the offensive line is obviously beneficial, a run game and protection both help the quarterback, but those receivers who can get open are just critical. We've all seen what Diggs did for Allen, what Hopkins did for Murray. I think if they can find one via the trade market it opens up their options in the draft.

I think to an extent, Douglas has been piecing together a team in SF's image - one that can win despite its quarterback. Run game, pass protection, easy scheme. But having playmakers who can elevate a quarterback and then the quarterback who can in turn elevate the offense makes resource allocation much easier.

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9 minutes ago, Larz said:

Until next week when the defense is the difference 

This coming weekends Team Defense Rankings:

San Fran 3rd

LA Rams 17th

Bengals 18th

KC Chiefs 27th

Other than San Fran, Defense will not be the Difference.  These are not elite Defenses by any stretch.

And San Fran will not win based on it's Defense, it'll win based on how their QB plays leading their Offense.  He plays well, they have a chance, they play poorly, the don't.  Regardless of what their Defense does.

Note those same teams Offensive Rankings:

KC Chiefs 3rd

San Fran 7th

LA Rams 9th

Bengals 13th

Three Top 10 Offenses.  Three Bottom 15 Defenses.  Only San Fran is good at both.

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8 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

I was laughed at by board geniuses when I posted this weeks ago:

#4 - best olineman in the draft

#10 - best wr in the draft

#35 - best te in the draft

#38 - best rb in the draft

Now maybe you guys understand what I was talking about.

This is how I’m leaning with one difference - I would like us to trade for a WR using either a 3rd or a 4th. Then we can use that #10 on an edge rusher. It’s still clear that the only chance a defense has is with a strong pass rush. 

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Something I brought up in the game thread.

Nothing flattens out a defense more than numerous early successful QB runs.

At the end of the game the defenses were still playing in a way to be ready for QB runs instead of being totally aggressive or totally soft.

 

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6 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

I was laughed at by board geniuses when I posted this weeks ago:

#4 - best olineman in the draft

#10 - best wr in the draft

#35 - best te in the draft

#38 - best rb in the draft

Now maybe you guys understand what I was talking about.

KC had the 8th defense in points. the worst one still around in Cincy at 17th

we had the worst....... IN HISTORY!!!!. you cant ignore it early in the draft. and you cant count on FAs. there is a reason their teams didnt resign those guys.

i like 10 and 35, but 4 and 38 has to be defense. 

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

This coming weekends Team Defense Rankings:

San Fran 3rd

LA Rams 17th

Bengals 18th

KC Chiefs 27th

Other than San Fran, Defense will not be the Difference.  These are not elite Defenses by any stretch.

And San Fran will not win based on it's Defense, it'll win based on how their QB plays leading their Offense.  He plays well, they have a chance, they play poorly, the don't.  Regardless of what their Defense does.

Note those same teams Offensive Rankings:

KC Chiefs 3rd

San Fran 7th

LA Rams 9th

Bengals 13th

Three Top 10 Offenses.  Three Bottom 15 Defenses.  Only San Fran is good at both.

your point is even stronger when you consider the teams that barely lost, like TB and buffalo and GB.  I give credit to douglas for going offense with his first 4 picks last year, he seems to recognize this.  Trading adams was great too.  The additional problem douglas has is that the defense is so so bad it needs to be addressed majorly just to get them to sniff average.

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2 years ago the NFL told the refs to limit offensive holding calls, and made that decision public.

This is the new NFL, and I've been saying this since I joined the board. The only way to beat the best is to outscore them, not prevent them from scoring. While defense is a solid way to help your offense, the game has changed. You can have the best defense in the NFL, but eventually a team with a better offense will win.

Sure, you can argue that the defense won it all for Tampa Bay, but the Chiefs would have won handily if Mahomes' receivers showed up. Most of his incompletions were drops. 

Go all out on offense, and while defense should not be ignored, it's important to realize that having the better defense will work in the regular season, but won't fly for long in the postseason.

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1 minute ago, Hex said:

2 years ago the NFL told the refs to limit offensive holding calls, and made that decision public.

This is the new NFL, and I've been saying this since I joined the board. The only way to beat the best is to outscore them, not prevent them from scoring. While defense is a solid way to help your offense, the game has changed. You can have the best defense in the NFL, but eventually a team with a better offense will win.

Sure, you can argue that the defense won it all for Tampa Bay, but the Chiefs would have won handily if Mahomes' receivers showed up. Most of his incompletions were drops. 

Go all out on offense, and while defense should not be ignored, it's important to realize that having the better defense will work in the regular season, but won't fly for long in the postseason.

Also what sometimes gets overlooked is that what hurts defenses like the jets is when the offense has a ton of 3 and outs.  Defenses on teams with crappy offenses get tired and ultimately fail at the end.  The jets can do the D a lot of good not only by drafting good D players but by helping wilson sustain drives and keep the D off the field.

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3 minutes ago, doitny said:

we had the worst....... IN HISTORY!!!!.

To be fair, that's the worst in Jets history. The Lions have had 2 seasons where they have allowed more points than the Jets did this season

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1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

Also what sometimes gets overlooked is that what hurts defenses like the jets is when the offense has a ton of 3 and outs.  Defenses on teams with crappy offenses get tired and ultimately fail at the end.  The jets can do the D a lot of good not only by drafting good D players but by helping wilson sustain drives and keep the D off the field.

A big reason why the Chiefs-Bills game became a shootout was because every drive went really long. Both teams were good at that, and eventually the defenses couldn't keep up. 

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51 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

The route where Gabriel had the guy shaken out of his shoes was hilarious.

Such a terrible job by the DB.  Dude had outside leverage and Davis was running essentially up the numbers.. WHY ARE YOU BITING ON AN OUTSIDE MOVE?! clearly faking, what could he possibly run with a hard cut to the outside like that? And even if he ran outside, you have outside leverage already, youre in good shape! so bad... Dude panicked because he let him destroy his cushion on the route and was made a fool of for it.  

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

The Bills #1 Defense was beaten by Offense.

Offense wins in the modern NFL. 

Even the best Defense cannot defeat the best Offenses.

The Jets need to build Offense first and foremost. 

A legit weapon on Offense > anything on Defense, especially given our investment in Zach Wilson last draft.

Prove me wrong.  If the Bills can't stop the Chiefs Offense, what on earth makes you think the Jets Defense ever will?

Our only path forward is to outscore opponents, the modern NFL way to winning.

I don't suppose that you happened to catch last year's Super Bowl did you? 

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7 minutes ago, Hex said:

To be fair, that's the worst in Jets history. The Lions have had 2 seasons where they have allowed more points than the Jets did this season

your right my bad.

in fact the Colts have the worst. in 1981 they gave up 533

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There's one point that seems to be lost in all the chest-beating.

While a lot of uncertainty remains, getting a (hopefully) healthy Carl Lawson back next year would be like an extra 1st round pick in terms of year-over-year improvement.  If we pour three of our first four picks into offense, we are still getting a big bump in defensive talent if Lawson comes back looking like he did in preseason this year.  

Add even one more solid starter at almost any position and it could move the needle a lot before we even get to the draft.  We'll lose Maye so perhaps we target a Safety like Marcus Williams or Jessie Bates who are both as good or probably better.

Plus, we had a substantially large number of rookies and 2nd year players with substantial snaps on defense this year who should be better in their second year in the same scheme.  We're not going to be top-10 good no matter what, but we could be league-average, which would be a substantial improvement over this year.

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I said this in another thread but I would like to see at least 3 offensive players in our first 4 picks, preferably OL/WR/TE but not necessarily in that order.  If we can grab a good edge at 4 or 10...do it.  We can fill out the rest of the defense in FA and later drafts.

Realistically, we are not going to compete on the "divisional round" level until 2023.  You not only need offense, but you need an offense that is used to playing with each other. Bill/Chiefs etc. have great offensives, not only because they are filled with stars, but also because they've been with each other in the same system for multiple years.

If we focused on Offense in 2022, we could field an offense in 2023 that looks like this:

QB - Wilson year 3

RB - Carter year 3, 2022 draft pick year 2

WR - Moore year 3

WR - 2022 high draft pick year 2

TE - 2022 high draft pick year 2

I'd be happy to go 7-10 next year while losing games 35-31 if it means our offense will be vastly improved moving forward.

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33 minutes ago, nycdan said:

There's one point that seems to be lost in all the chest-beating.

While a lot of uncertainty remains, getting a (hopefully) healthy Carl Lawson back next year would be like an extra 1st round pick in terms of year-over-year improvement.  If we pour three of our first four picks into offense, we are still getting a big bump in defensive talent if Lawson comes back looking like he did in preseason this year.  

Add even one more solid starter at almost any position and it could move the needle a lot before we even get to the draft.  We'll lose Maye so perhaps we target a Safety like Marcus Williams or Jessie Bates who are both as good or probably better.

Plus, we had a substantially large number of rookies and 2nd year players with substantial snaps on defense this year who should be better in their second year in the same scheme.  We're not going to be top-10 good no matter what, but we could be league-average, which would be a substantial improvement over this year.

Can we count on a healthy Carl Lawson? 

Even so, we need another edge rusher on the other side. It's all about generating pressure with the front 4. 

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

In all seriousness, I am not advocating to use every pick and eveyr dollar in FA on Offense.

I'd advocating to support our #2 pick QB Mr. Wilson to the maximum possible, and to prioritize building the Offense over building the Defense.  Our franchise has done it the other way, failing to support drafted QB's and prioritizing Defense, and it simply does not work.

If we draft an edge at #4 will I be mad?  Nope.  We need one, badly.

If we draft Defense with 3 out of 4 (or all 4) of our top 4 picks will I be mad?  Hell yes.  That's repeating the insanity of previous regimes.

We need to get, from those top 4 picks, at LEAST two top-tier Offensive prospects, at least one at a skill position.

P.S. If we're going to lose, I'd rather lose 41-38 than lose 6-3.  JMO.

You can’t approach the draft that way Warfish. The Jets don’t need offensive players, they need GOOD offensive players. You can’t force a pick based on position. 

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Keep in mind a defense that gets off the field helps the offense. 

Look at the Eagles game where the Jets scored TDs on their first three possessions and still found themselves down 24-18 at halftime. 

Had the Jets been able to make a stop the Jets could have taken control of that game. Instead the Eagles offense held the ball forever and the offense completely lost its rhythm as a result. 

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Just now, NYJets43 said:

Keep in mind a defense that gets off the field helps the offense. 

 

I also think our punting game needs to improve.  I feel like we're always starting drives inside our 20 and opponensts are always starting around midfield.

I had hoped Mann would be a field flipper and he hasn't been, yet.  

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In order for anyone to believe in this rebuild that Douglas is promising, the Jets need to have a functional offense. Scoring some points will at least give you hope that the needle is turning. Defenses vary year to year. The Jets have dumped endless resources and picks into the defense over the last decade and have gotten nowhere.

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Just now, Matt39 said:

In order for anyone to believe in this rebuild that Douglas is promising, the Jets need to have a functional offense. Scoring some points will at least give you hope that the needle is turning. Defenses vary year to year. The Jets have dumped endless resources and picks into the defense over the last decade and have gotten nowhere.

At the end of the day, if you can score you have a chance to win.  If you can’t score you really don’t.

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26 minutes ago, NYJets43 said:

You can’t approach the draft that way Warfish. The Jets don’t need offensive players, they need GOOD offensive players. You can’t force a pick based on position. 

Unless you really think there are no "good offensive players" in the entire draft class, I'm not sure what your point here is.

There will be Offensive talent available at our picks that warrant those picks.

P.S. Remember to remind all the "can't force a pick" guys when the top two edge prospects go early, and the Jets are sitting at #4 contemplating picking either an edge who isn't even a top 10 talent, or a safety, lol. :shock:

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There seems to be this misconception that we always draft defense ahead of offense.  That was true through 2017, but in the last 4 drafts, we have been heavy offense at the top of the draft.  Since 2018:

  • 5 1st rounders:  4 offense (Darnold, Becton, Wilson & AVT), 1 defense (Williams)
  • 2 2nd rounders:  Both offense (Moore and Mims)
  • 5 3rd rounders: 1 offense (Edoga) 4 defense (Zuniga, Davis, Polite and Shepherd)
  • 6 4th rounders:  All offense (Carter, Perine, Morgan, Clark, Wesco and Herndon)
  • 5th and 6th round have been heavily skewed towards defense -- 11 of 13 have been defense with 1 offense and 1 punter. We have not picked in the 7th round since 2017.

18 players picked in Rds 1-4 since 2018; 13 have been offense.  The problem is not that we still spend too much resource on defense.  The problem is too many players we have drafted, on either side of the ball, have not been good. 

With 5 picks on days 1 & 2, I just want impact players, on both sides of the ball.

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24 minutes ago, NYJets43 said:

Look at the Eagles game where the Jets scored TDs on their first three possessions and still found themselves down 24-18 at halftime. 

Refresh my memory, how did we score three TD's and only end up with 18 points?  Did we miss all three Extra Points (and why am I not remembering that?  Self preservation memory wipe?)

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Refresh my memory, how did we score three TD's and only end up with 18 points?  Did we miss all three Extra Points (and why am I not remembering that?  Self preservation memory wipe?)

Yep.

we missed missed first two XPs, then Saleh said F it and decided to go for two 

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Refresh my memory, how did we score three TD's and only end up with 18 points?  Did we miss all three Extra Points (and why am I not remembering that?  Self preservation memory wipe?)

That was the game where we had just signed Alex Kessman to replace Amendola as kicker.  Kessman missed his first two XPs, we went for 2 on the 3rd try and missed.  Kessman was released after the game.

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27 minutes ago, NYJets43 said:

Look at the Eagles game where the Jets scored TDs on their first three possessions and still found themselves down 24-18 at halftime. 

Had the Jets been able to make a stop the Jets could have taken control of that game. Instead the Eagles offense held the ball forever and the offense completely lost its rhythm as a result. 

Such an infuriating game.

non-competitive defense, drops galore, and a kicker who can’t make an XP. 
 

very Jetsy loss 

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2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Such an infuriating game.

non-competitive defense, drops galore, and a kicker who can’t make an XP. 
 

very Jetsy loss 

Try watching it live. It was awful-the only time the Jets forced a punt was late in the 4th quarter where Phillys backup center snapped the ball over Minshews head. 

It was death by a thousand paper cuts on defense. The Jets defense just could not get off the field. 

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

If the Niners/Rams and Chiefs play a 9-6 Super Bowl, get back to me and I will re-evaluate by Offense > Defense viewpoint.'

Winning score of last 10 Super Bowls:

31, 31, 13, 41, 34, 24, 28, 43, 34, 21

No one (except the Pats over the Rams) is winning a Super Bowl if they cannot score 3 TD's bare minimum, or 4-5 TD's more likely.

 

 

A good defense isn’t necessarily judged by the final score - good defense scores points and more importantly helps win the battle of field position making an offense’s role easier. Also good defenses and defensive schemes were not seen last night - I don’t care what their ranking was. 

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