No HOF for Baseball's Ultimate Cheaters - Bonds and Clemens! Great News

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

I for one am glad (ecstatic actually) that Bonds and Clemens are not in the HOF. Integrity has to count for something. Analytics have clearly ruined baseball, taking all of the excitement out of it. But for me, PEDs ruined it first. Baseball is a numbers game and stats are its legacy. I don't care what Bonds and Clemens did before they juiced. Their juicing turned the game's iconic records and history upside down. I have nothing but contempt for both of them.

There is no hitter in the history of the game whose career went on the upswing at age 35 - except Bonds. It was a despicable insult to the game and the players who played before him. Clemens was done at age 30 He was 40-39 with an ERA of 4.00 from 93-96. And then he has 8 - count them - 8 more phenomenal seasons from age 34-42. Did he find a new pitch? Change his delivery? No. He took steroids. That is also despicable. It is just out and out cheating. Neither of them belongs anywhere near the HOF. Most of the all time greats were on the decline by age 35. If Willie Mays juiced like Bonds, he may have hit 850-900 home runs. Seaver and Gibson would have won 400 games if they juiced like Clemens. It doesn't help that both of them were horrible people either (although I know that the HOF is populated by similarly bad characters).

I have zero respect for players who cheated the game and the natural aging process like these two. However, I would put Pete Rose in the HOF tomorrow. His actions did not impact his on the field performance. I think his actions are much more forgivable than those of Bonds and Clemens.

I just watched Ken Burns' Baseball on the MLB network and loved it. But when it got to the added episode - the 10th inning - I was both sad and disgusted at how baseball's great history was soiled by these two selfish and deceitful players.

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

9 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

I for one am glad (ecstatic actually) that Bonds and Clemens are not in the HOF. Integrity has to count for something. Analytics have clearly ruined baseball, taking all of the excitement out of it. But for me, PEDs ruined it first. Baseball is a numbers game and stats are its legacy. I don't care what Bonds and Clemens did before they juiced. Their juicing turned the game's iconic records and history upside down. I have nothing but contempt for both of them.

There is no hitter in the history of the game whose career went on the upswing at age 35 - except Bonds. It was a despicable insult to the game and the players who played before him. Clemens was done at age 30 He was 40-39 with an ERA of 4.00 from 93-96. And then he has 8 - count them - 8 more phenomenal seasons from age 34-42. Did he find a new pitch? Change his delivery? No. He took steroids. That is also despicable. It is just out and out cheating. Neither of them belongs anywhere near the HOF. Most of the all time greats were on the decline by age 35. If Willie Mays juiced like Bonds, he may have hit 850-900 home runs. Seaver and Gibson would have won 400 games if they juiced like Clemens. It doesn't help that both of them were horrible people either (although I know that the HOF is populated by similarly bad characters).

I have zero respect for players who cheated the game and the natural aging process like these two. However, I would put Pete Rose in the HOF tomorrow. His actions did not impact his on the field performance. I think his actions are much more forgivable than those of Bonds and Clemens.

I just watched Ken Burns' Baseball on the MLB network and loved it. But when it got to the added episode - the 10th inning - I was both sad and disgusted at how baseball's great history was soiled by these two selfish and deceitful players.

[PFSIKH]

10 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

I for one am glad (ecstatic actually) that Bonds and Clemens are not in the HOF. Integrity has to count for something. Analytics have clearly ruined baseball, taking all of the excitement out of it. But for me, PEDs ruined it first. Baseball is a numbers game and stats are its legacy. I don't care what Bonds and Clemens did before they juiced. Their juicing turned the game's iconic records and history upside down. I have nothing but contempt for both of them.

There is no hitter in the history of the game whose career went on the upswing at age 35 - except Bonds. It was a despicable insult to the game and the players who played before him. Clemens was done at age 30 He was 40-39 with an ERA of 4.00 from 93-96. And then he has 8 - count them - 8 more phenomenal seasons from age 34-42. Did he find a new pitch? Change his delivery? No. He took steroids. That is also despicable. It is just out and out cheating. Neither of them belongs anywhere near the HOF. Most of the all time greats were on the decline by age 35. If Willie Mays juiced like Bonds, he may have hit 850-900 home runs. Seaver and Gibson would have won 400 games if they juiced like Clemens. It doesn't help that both of them were horrible people either (although I know that the HOF is populated by similarly bad characters).

I have zero respect for players who cheated the game and the natural aging process like these two. However, I would put Pete Rose in the HOF tomorrow. His actions did not impact his on the field performance. I think his actions are much more forgivable than those of Bonds and Clemens.

I just watched Ken Burns' Baseball on the MLB network and loved it. But when it got to the added episode - the 10th inning - I was both sad and disgusted at how baseball's great history was soiled by these two selfish and deceitful players.

Why?  It is posted in every MLB locker room.  Do not bet on baseball.   A rule that had been in place since the 1919 Black Sox scandal and he still bet on baseball games.  He bet on games as a manager when he can control the game.  He crapped on the integrity of the game as well.

I understand your stance on Clemens and Bonds.  I do not agree with it as players from the 50s and 60s well into the 2000s were allowed to take amphetamines, but I digress.  Like it or not, they are part of baseball's history.  Rose to.  Given that the league looked the other way while a majority of players took PEDs and gladly reaped the financial benefit does not make it right, but maybe Bud Selig should not be in the Hall because of his complicity in it as commissioner.   

I say put them in.  Whether on their plaques or create a special room in the Hall for that era.  Explain what happened.  

[section314]

11 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

I for one am glad (ecstatic actually) that Bonds and Clemens are not in the HOF. Integrity has to count for something. Analytics have clearly ruined baseball, taking all of the excitement out of it. But for me, PEDs ruined it first. Baseball is a numbers game and stats are its legacy. I don't care what Bonds and Clemens did before they juiced. Their juicing turned the game's iconic records and history upside down. I have nothing but contempt for both of them.

There is no hitter in the history of the game whose career went on the upswing at age 35 - except Bonds. It was a despicable insult to the game and the players who played before him. Clemens was done at age 30 He was 40-39 with an ERA of 4.00 from 93-96. And then he has 8 - count them - 8 more phenomenal seasons from age 34-42. Did he find a new pitch? Change his delivery? No. He took steroids. That is also despicable. It is just out and out cheating. Neither of them belongs anywhere near the HOF. Most of the all time greats were on the decline by age 35. If Willie Mays juiced like Bonds, he may have hit 850-900 home runs. Seaver and Gibson would have won 400 games if they juiced like Clemens. It doesn't help that both of them were horrible people either (although I know that the HOF is populated by similarly bad characters).

I have zero respect for players who cheated the game and the natural aging process like these two. However, I would put Pete Rose in the HOF tomorrow. His actions did not impact his on the field performance. I think his actions are much more forgivable than those of Bonds and Clemens.

I just watched Ken Burns' Baseball on the MLB network and loved it. But when it got to the added episode - the 10th inning - I was both sad and disgusted at how baseball's great history was soiled by these two selfish and deceitful players.

I have to say, it did bring a smile to my face. 

[Lith]

Didn't Ortiz test positive for PEDs at some point.  But I guess the media likes him, so he gets in.  

[CrazyCarl40]

58 minutes ago, Lith said:

Didn't Ortiz test positive for PEDs at some point.  But I guess the media likes him, so he gets in.  

He did not. 

[Peace Frog]

1 hour ago, Lith said:

Didn't Ortiz test positive for PEDs at some point.  But I guess the media likes him, so he gets in.  

 

14 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

He did not. 

Yes he did.  He was named in the original Mitchell Report but his name was removed because Manfred said it "might have been" a false positive.  He did no such thing for any other player.  Apparently, nobody else was a false positive.  

[CrazyCarl40]

2 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

 

Yes he did.  He was named in the original Mitchell Report but his name was removed because Manfred said it "might have been" a false positive.  He did no such thing for any other player.  Apparently, nobody else was a false positive.  

He was not in the Mitchell Report. David Ortiz never tested positive for steroids. Google is your friend. 

[Peace Frog]

5 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

He was not in the Mitchell Report. David Ortiz never tested positive for steroids. Google is your friend. 

Yes he was. It was leaked by multiple sources that he was in the report, that he tested positive. His name was wiped clean. 

Google is also YOUR friend. 

[CrazyCarl40]

44 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Yes he was. It was leaked by multiple sources that he was in the report, that he tested positive. His name was wiped clean. 

Google is also YOUR friend. 

He was not named in the Mitchell Report. You’re referring to when MLB randomly tested players on condition of anonymity in 2003. And the tests couldn’t tell what the player tested positive for. They were tested for a range of supplements and not many were ever outlawed at the time. MLB could never tell Ortiz what he was positive for and he was tested throughout the rest of his career and was clean every time. This is well known and corroborated by the Commissioner.  

[greenwichjetfan]

They should be in the HoF with asterisks. To keep them out is plain buffoonery. Their stories are some of the biggest in baseball over the last 50 years, and any HoF's sole duty is to preserve the history of the game. 

Alternatively, if the boomer dinosaur BBWAA want to keep those two out, that's actually fine too. They just need to now go back and remove all of the actual (non-baseball related) criminals, all of the amphetamine users, and anyone with any suspicion of PEDs such as that slimeball Ortiz.

[Peace Frog]

6 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

 and corroborated by the Commissioner.  

Lol

[PFSIKH]

15 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

Lol

Versus an anonymous source.  

[Morrissey]

Pudge Rodriguez is in the Hall of Fame. David Ortiz is now in Hall of Fame. Baseball Hall of Fame is a joke. They let steroid users in who were nice to them.

[Matt39]

Ortiz tested positive so the "writers" are telling you it's not about steroids. Schilling isnt in and it's because those goobers dont like his opinions. Whole thing is silly.

[Peace Frog]

15 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Ortiz tested positive so the "writers" are telling you it's not about steroids. Schilling isnt in and it's because those goobers dont like his opinions. Whole thing is silly.

That's the funny thing--Schilling is 100% a Hall of famer but the only reason he's not in is for things he said AFTER he retired.  Makes zero sense.  The 'character clause' basically says:

Hall of Famers, the committee decided, “shall be chosen on the basis of playing ability, sportsmanship, character, their contribution to the teams on which they played and to baseball in general.”

They should include "mean tweets" as a reason for exclusion.

[chirorob]

22 hours ago, Morrissey said:

Pudge Rodriguez is in the Hall of Fame. David Ortiz is now in Hall of Fame. Baseball Hall of Fame is a joke. They let steroid users in who were nice to them.

Jeff Bagwell, there are tons of nice guys who juiced and are in.

[JustEndTheSuffering]

Not only did fatso get in as a juicer but he was first ballot too. What a sick hypocrisy. To be clear I was never a Bonds and Clemens need to be in kinda guy but if we’re going to let people in because they’re popular then the HOF has lost all credibility and meaning. 

[CrazyCarl40]

On 1/27/2022 at 7:37 PM, Matt39 said:

Ortiz tested positive so the "writers" are telling you it's not about steroids. Schilling isnt in and it's because those goobers dont like his opinions. Whole thing is silly.

Tell me what he tested positive for. With evidence. Thanks. 

[Maxman]

7 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Tell me what he tested positive for. With evidence. Thanks. 

I have the evidence but patient privacy laws prevent me from posting it.

Kidding.

At this point it is silly. There are guys in the hall of fame that used steroids. They made their point, just let them all in. If you want to keep Rose out for betting, sure do that. But Bonds belongs in the Hall and trust me originally I wanted them all out. Right now though how do you tell. The owners, players association etc all turned a blind eye. 

Vote people in based on their numbers and don't let people cheat for 12 years in the future without doing anything.

[HawkeyeJet]

On 1/28/2022 at 10:18 AM, Peace Frog said:

That's the funny thing--Schilling is 100% a Hall of famer but the only reason he's not in is for things he said AFTER he retired.  Makes zero sense.  The 'character clause' basically says:

Hall of Famers, the committee decided, “shall be chosen on the basis of playing ability, sportsmanship, character, their contribution to the teams on which they played and to baseball in general.”

They should include "mean tweets" as a reason for exclusion.

Schilling being 100% a HOF pitcher is very debatable.  He probably should get the nod, but he’s not a slam dunk candidate regardless about the opinions of his personality.  Him and Kevin Brown had damn near statistically identical careers and Brown fell off the ballot his first year.

[undertow]

The HOF used to be a big deal but it hardly makes news anymore because of the biases in the media and because baseball stats barely matter to baseball fans these days for various reasons. Were living in a strange world now were losers on the internet and in the media celebrate the failures of those who actually accomplish things on a daily basis.  Misery loves company.

[Peace Frog]

8 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Schilling being 100% a HOF pitcher is very debatable.  He probably should get the nod, but he’s not a slam dunk candidate regardless about the opinions of his personality.  Him and Kevin Brown had damn near statistically identical careers and Brown fell off the ballot his first year.

One of the great post season pitchers. He’s a HOFer but for his post baseball views. 

[chirorob]

3 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

One of the great post season pitchers. He’s a HOFer but for his post baseball views. 

Won a Cy Young.   Finished in 2nd place twice, plus a 4th place finish.

Led the league in innings twice, wins twice, strikeouts twice.  Over 200 wins, but as you said, the postseason really helps him out.

11-2 with a 2.23 ERA, 7 innings a start, just amazing.

[Peace Frog]

15 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Won a Cy Young.   Finished in 2nd place twice, plus a 4th place finish.

Led the league in innings twice, wins twice, strikeouts twice.  Over 200 wins, but as you said, the postseason really helps him out.

11-2 with a 2.23 ERA, 7 innings a start, just amazing.

I don’t think he ever won the Cy Young but he should have at least 1 and maybe 2. 

[chirorob]

18 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

I don’t think he ever won the Cy Young but he should have at least 1 and maybe 2. 

Correct, he finished 2nd 3 times, my bad.  Twice he lost to Randy Johnson, and once to Johan Santana.

[Peace Frog]

18 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Correct, he finished 2nd 3 times, my bad.  Twice he lost to Randy Johnson, and once to Johan Santana.

When so few pitchers are winning 20 games these days, doing it three times is damn good.