How many NFL owners will actually be willing to trade for Watson?

[Shelbyblue]

Miami wants him bad. He should have settled these rub and tug cases and get on with his career before it’s too late.

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

The thing about *redemption stories* is that you need to be able to sell the narrative that someone is redeemable.  If something is a *one time thing* or a *moment of poor judgement*, we can do that.  If the many accusers are to be believed, Watson's actions are habitual and predatory.  And, in that case, even if we believe that the individual actions are not as bad as some of the others, the lack of an *I made a mistake* narrative makes this an incredibly tough sell.

I think you hit on a very important point that makes Watson’s case somewhat unique - he has 22 accusers, implying that his misconduct was habitual. 

It really is harder to look the other way when you are talking about a potential serial predator. This isn’t a he said/she said. It’s a he said/she (X22) said. 

[ZachEY]

7 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I think you hit on a very important point that makes Watson’s case somewhat unique - he has 22 accusers, implying that his misconduct was habitual. 

It really is harder to look the other way when you are talking about a potential serial predator. This isn’t a he said/she said. It’s a he said/she (X22) said. 

We're talking over two threads now, so I think it's best to move the conversation here.

I just read the wikipedia on Roethlisberger, because I didn't remember the details.  There's enough doubt sowed into those stories (at least as presented there, though they're all sourced) that you can see how, 12-14 years ago, you could say, "boys will be boys" or question issues around consent, if that's the narrative you wanted.  Please note, I think he raped both of them, and none of this is my personal belief, but just pointing to the narrative.  Additionally, there's what I mentioned before, and you're responding to, the habitual pattern of behavior with Watson.

[kmnj]

my opinion (you may disagree)

Watson is getting a bad rap-he has not been charged with a crime -there are active players that were charged with felony crimes in their past are there not ? 

What I believe and once again you may disagree(Watson did what R Kraft essentially did) got a rub and tug 

Until he is charged and proven with guilty he should be playing 

 

[kmnj]

10 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I think you hit on a very important point that makes Watson’s case somewhat unique - he has 22 accusers, implying that his misconduct was habitual. 

It really is harder to look the other way when you are talking about a potential serial predator. This isn’t a he said/she said. It’s a he said/she (X22) said. 

why has the "serial" predator not been charged with a crime? how many years will the guy have have to sit on the sidelines 

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, kmnj said:

my opinion (you may disagree)

Watson is getting a bad rap-he has not been charged with a crime -there are active players that were charged with felony crimes in their past are there not ? 

What I believe and once again you may disagree(Watson did what R Kraft essentially did) got a rub and tug 

Until he is charged and proven with guilty he should be playing 

 

With Kraft, both parties consented to the sexual nature of the interaction.

With Watson, both parties consented to a massage, the provider did not consent to a sexual encounter.

This distinction is not as insignificant as you're making it out to be.

[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, kmnj said:

why has the "serial" predator not been charged with a crime? how many years will the guy have have to sit on the sidelines 

[slimjasi]

12 minutes ago, kmnj said:

why has the "serial" predator not been charged with a crime? how many years will the guy have have to sit on the sidelines 

Because the burden of proof for criminal prosecution is very high and because many survivors of sexual assault are uninterested in reliving the most humiliating moments of their lives in front of strangers (typically a requirement for prosecution). 

This is anecdotal but my wife was in the army and was sexually assaulted there a couple of years before we met - she had ZERO interest in levying any charges against anyone. She'd rather forget it and move on with her life. This is a common sentiment, I promise you.  

Believe whatever you like, but the alternative to Watson being a serial predator is that 22 women have been paid or otherwise motivated to fabricate these very serious accusations against an innocent man. This just seems very unlikely to me. 

[johnnysd]

2 hours ago, JiFapono said:

Meh, the NFL doesnt care.  He will 100% play in the NFL again, no doubt in my mind, even with the current climate.  The Me too movement went deep and pulled sh*t out of people history to fid jusice but the NFL dont care one bit.  It's the place of 2nd chances.

Kareem Hunt is on film attacking a woman, being held back by his entourage only for it to end in him kicking a woman, it's on film.  Nobody gave a ****.  They care if he scored enough TD's for the Browns or points for your FF team.

Everyone loves Tyreek Hill, nobody gives a **** he kicked his pregnant girlfriend down a flight of stairs.

Joe Mixon is on film throwing a haymaker on a young woman who was sitting at a table, he recently signed a 48 million dollar contract extension.

The NFL dont care about me too.

 

 

Well said in both of your posts. It sort of sickens me to be honest. There might be times the #metoo thing goes too far, but the NFL literally does not care. The NFL needs better leadership and discipline. Their standards should be higher than the general population not one of indifference.

[whodeawhodat]

watson vs kraft

young professional athlete vs smart billionaire

wealthy and reckless vs money and power

 

[JiF]

2 minutes ago, whodeawhodat said:

watson vs kraft

young professional athlete vs smart billionaire

wealthy and reckless vs money and power

 

Bingo.  And there was video footage of that sh*t.

 

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

Because the burden of proof for criminal prosecution is very high and because many survivors of sexual assault are uninterested in reliving the most humiliating moments of their lives in front of strangers (typically a requirement for prosecution). 

Even without the challenges of revisiting trauma... How is this not obvious to everyone?  At the criminal standard, this is completely unproveable, short of video recording which doesn't exist.  Two people are in an otherwise empty massage room, there are no witnesses, no injuries, just a guy taking out his penis who will later say he didn't do that, or that he was encouraged to do so.  Even if she does what he's asking, does she keep his semen in a vial for later analysis?  Even if she did, how is consent proven?

People are so hung up on the phase "innocent until proven guilty" without actually understanding what it means.

[ZachEY]

44 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Bingo.  And there was video footage of that sh*t.

 

This is not a bingo.  One involves consent, the other does not.

[doitny]

54 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Because the burden of proof for criminal prosecution is very high and because many survivors of sexual assault are uninterested in reliving the most humiliating moments of their lives in front of strangers (typically a requirement for prosecution). 

This is anecdotal but my wife was in the army and was sexually assaulted there a couple of years before we met - she had ZERO interest in levying any charges against anyone. She'd rather forget it and move on with her life. This is a common sentiment, I promise you.  

Believe whatever you like, but the alternative to Watson being a serial predator is that 22 women have been paid or otherwise motivated to fabricate these very serious accusations against an innocent man. This just seems very unlikely to me. 

ok then why havent they just dropped the case?

where coming up on a year and last we hear was they were interviewing the women. doesnt take that long to talk to 22 women. you cant hold this over Watsons head forever. this has to come to a head sooner or later.

my guess is alot of those 22 women are no good and would get killed in cross examination. plus i think this lawyers plan was to produce all these women and get Watson to settle but when Watson refused, he was screwed and is now trying to find a smoking gun.

i would trade for him. if they had a case it would be over by now. and if something does come up he wont get suspended. he is like suspended now by sitting the whole year. just probably pay a fine to the NFL. 

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, doitny said:

ok then why havent they just dropped the case?

where coming up on a year and last we hear was they were interviewing the women. doesnt take that long to talk to 22 women. you cant hold this over Watsons head forever. this has to come to a head sooner or later.

my guess is alot of those 22 women are no good and would get killed in cross examination. plus i think this lawyers plan was to produce all these women and get Watson to settle but when Watson refused, he was screwed and is now trying to find a smoking gun.

i would trade for him. if they had a case it would be over by now. and if something does come up he wont get suspended. he is like suspended now by sitting the whole year. just probably pay a fine to the NFL. 

Dropped what charges, specifically?

[20andOut]

Ona related note, how are Maras statements not a major problem for the Giants?  I thought any public statement regarding possible interest in(or not) in another teams player was a major no-no. 

[football guy]

19 hours ago, nycdan said:

I can not fathom any team paying three 1st round picks plus more for Watson as things stand.  Unless the NFL definitively clears him, that seems like a pipe dream for HOU.  Maybe a high first or equivalent in picks/players.  Beyond that, the risk seems way too high.  Nobody wants to be the GM who trades for a player who gets suspended before he even takes a snap.  

But then again, nobody wants to be the GM who trades two 1st rounders for a Safety and yet...there you go.

 

While I agree, teams were willing to do it at the trade deadline. It was less a question of compensation, more logistics. Had he settled his lawsuits many believe he would've been traded and the Texans would've brought that amount back. Personally, I think they'll get less now that they've waited because (1) less demand from teams who initially were in on him; and (2) Watson's no trade clause. 

If Watson is only willing to get traded to 3 teams (lets say DEN, MIA, and PHI for sh*ts and gigs) and two of those teams either don't want to trade for him or won't give up what HOU wants (MIA/PHI), that pretty much only leaves one team to trade for him... at that point, HOU needs to decide whether they hold out for the best offer/wait for Watson to expand his list, or just take the highest bid. 

[ZachEY]

6 minutes ago, 20andOut said:

Ona related note, how are Maras statements not a major problem for the Giants?  I thought any public statement regarding possible interest in(or not) in another teams player was a major no-no. 

https://nflcommunications.com/Documents/2018 Policies/7-2018 Anti-Tampering Policy-Clean Version.pdf

Tampering policy seems to prohibit comments of interest, but not necessary disinterest.

Sounds like Mara was asked, and said no.  Doesn't appear as if that's a problem.  Were he to say, "We'd love to have him," that would be an issue.

[doitny]

5 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Dropped what charges, specifically?

not charges, the case.

the lawyer can drop whatever it is he started. the police can finish their investigation that is almost a year old.

you cant keep this kids life on hold forever.

you can never prove this for criminal court. but you can for civil court and the burden of proof is a lot less. yet were not in civil court. why? cause they dont even have a good case for that. 

drop whatever it is they have on him and let him play football without this hanging over his head. then the lawyer can keep trying to build a case and when he has one for criminal or civil court let him come out and do it. its apparent that he tried to get a quick settlement and when that failed hes scrambling to find anything he can use to bring this to court.

 

 

[FootballLove]

I kinda agree with football guy on Carolina. They seem to be super aggressive (desperate maybe???) to land a FQB. They know they messed up giving Sam his 5th yr and are kinda stuck with him for another season, or maybe not...it's just money right? But they are the one team to be openly doing anything in their power to solve the FQB puzzle.

Or maybe Carolina was genius giving Sam his 5th, making him tradeable as part of the Waston deal? Can't believe the Texans would have any interest in Sam, but then again I was surprised the Panthers coughed up good draft cap for him.

I really hope that whatever team coughs up three 1st round picks for Watson goes on to really SUCK for the next decade. How funny would it be if this team ends up being the Giants??? hahahaha They don't need any help sucking but it'd still be funny as hell.

[slimjasi]

52 minutes ago, doitny said:

my guess is alot of those 22 women are no good and would get killed in cross examination. plus i think this lawyers plan was to produce all these women and get Watson to settle but when Watson refused, he was screwed and is now trying to find a smoking gun.

Whether or not the 22 women would be willing and able to provide testimony that would actually convict Watson in a court of law ("beyond a reasonable doubt") is not something I'm particularly interested in. Again, the burden for criminal conviction is (rightfully) very high. 

I'm just saying that, giving everything we currently know, it's more likely than not that he was preying on women. 

[ZachEY]

17 minutes ago, doitny said:

not charges, the case.

the lawyer can drop whatever it is he started. the police can finish their investigation that is almost a year old.

you cant keep this kids life on hold forever.

you can never prove this for criminal court. but you can for civil court and the burden of proof is a lot less. yet were not in civil court. why? cause they dont even have a good case for that. 

drop whatever it is they have on him and let him play football without this hanging over his head. then the lawyer can keep trying to build a case and when he has one for criminal or civil court let him come out and do it. its apparent that he tried to get a quick settlement and when that failed hes scrambling to find anything he can use to bring this to court.

 

 

That it's not happening on your timeframe isn't a reason that it shouldn't happen, or is in any way erroneous.

I know someone with a fairly open and shut case re: employment inequity, it's reached the point where a settlement is agreed upon, and the complainant is getting almost every one of their demands in a settlement, and the lawyers are just dealing with language in the agreement.  It's been over 2 years since the initial complaint.

That's with one complainant, not 22, and not a high profile case.  There's an expression, the wheels of justice move slowly, but grind exceedingly fine.  Just because it's not happening on your timeframe, doesn't mean it's incorrect. 

[JiF]

1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

This is not a bingo.  One involves consent, the other does not.

Hmmmm, could have sworn the women were sex trafficked to that Orchid place and probably really didnt want to touch Mr. Kraft's penis but ok.  I see your point.  Kind of.  Idk, I dont have intimate details on either situation but it seems in one scenario, the women that were servicing Mr. Kraft were forced to be there against their will whereas, I'm pretty sure nobody was forcing the women massaging Watson to stick around.  Why didnt they just leave the room?  Legit question, did he have like bodyguards forcing them to stay or did he forcefully make them stick around?  Like, when he flashed his junk or positioned in an appropriate way, was someone in the room forcing them to continue? 

Could be wrong, again dont know the details, legit asking because it seems a bit different if those are the facts.

 

 

 

[ZachEY]

35 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Hmmmm, could have sworn the women were sex trafficked to that Orchid place and probably really didnt want to touch Mr. Kraft's penis but ok.  I see your point.  Kind of.  Idk, I dont have intimate details on either situation but it seems in one scenario, the women that were servicing Mr. Kraft were forced to be there against their will whereas, I'm pretty sure nobody was forcing the women massaging Watson to stick around.  Why didnt they just leave the room?  Legit question, did he have like bodyguards forcing them to stay or did he forcefully make them stick around?  Like, when he flashed his junk or positioned in an appropriate way, was someone in the room forcing them to continue? 

Could be wrong, again dont know the details, legit asking because it seems a bit different if those are the facts.

 

 

 

I thought it was a general rub and tug place... wasn't aware of sex trafficking.  There's a million of those places where you can go and pay for a massage and a hand job.  I am not as up on every detail as well, but I thought that was generally a harmless, but embarrassing encounter.  If that's not the case, and Kraft was knowingly involved, yes, that was something far more nefarious.  It's also possible that Kraft was unaware of how the women came to be there - sex trade isn't all sex trafficking.

As for Watson, I can't speak to the psychologies of people I've never met, nor heard speak, nor do I know the details of these occurrences.  What I do know is that often times, a woman will feel powerless to act.  And while there may not be someone physically restraining them, there may have been a number of reasons why.  I don't have the answers, but I also can't presume that because I don't have the answers, 22 people gathered with the same goal, and fairly flawlessly put this hit job together.

[Peace Frog]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

Hmmmm, could have sworn the women were sex trafficked to that Orchid place and probably really didnt want to touch Mr. Kraft's penis but ok.  I see your point.  Kind of.  Idk, I dont have intimate details on either situation but it seems in one scenario, the women that were servicing Mr. Kraft were forced to be there against their will whereas, I'm pretty sure nobody was forcing the women massaging Watson to stick around.  Why didnt they just leave the room?  Legit question, did he have like bodyguards forcing them to stay or did he forcefully make them stick around?  Like, when he flashed his junk or positioned in an appropriate way, was someone in the room forcing them to continue? 

Could be wrong, again dont know the details, legit asking because it seems a bit different if those are the facts.

 

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

I thought it was a general rub and tug place... wasn't aware of sex trafficking.  There's a million of those places where you can go and pay for a massage and a hand job.  I am not as up on every detail as well, but I thought that was generally a harmless, but embarrassing encounter.  If that's not the case, and Kraft was knowingly involved, yes, that was something far more nefarious.  It's also possible that Kraft was unaware of how the women came to be there - sex trade isn't all sex trafficking.

As for Watson, I can't speak to the psychologies of people I've never met, nor heard speak, nor do I know the details of these occurrences.  What I do know is that often times, a woman will feel powerless to act.  And while there may not be someone physically restraining them, there may have been a number of reasons why.  I don't have the answers, but I also can't presume that because I don't have the answers, 22 people gathered with the same goal, and fairly flawlessly put this hit job together.

As much as I hate to admit it, I think the sex trafficking thing was made up or massively overstated. Kraft is still a scumbag. 

As is Watson. 

[FidelioJet]

3 hours ago, whodeawhodat said:

watson vs kraft

young professional athlete vs smart billionaire

wealthy and reckless vs money and power

 

These are not even remotely close to the same situation....Couldn't be further from each other.

[IntoTheGreen]

41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

I thought it was a general rub and tug place... wasn't aware of sex trafficking.  There's a million of those places where you can go and pay for a massage and a hand job.  I am not as up on every detail as well, but I thought that was generally a harmless, but embarrassing encounter.  If that's not the case, and Kraft was knowingly involved, yes, that was something far more nefarious.  It's also possible that Kraft was unaware of how the women came to be there - sex trade isn't all sex trafficking.

As for Watson, I can't speak to the psychologies of people I've never met, nor heard speak, nor do I know the details of these occurrences.  What I do know is that often times, a woman will feel powerless to act.  And while there may not be someone physically restraining them, there may have been a number of reasons why.  I don't have the answers, but I also can't presume that because I don't have the answers, 22 people gathered with the same goal, and fairly flawlessly put this hit job together.

Wait...you claim not to know the psychology of people you never met - Watson - but then make a blanket psychological statement about the women - feeling powerless to act. 

[doitny]

1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

That it's not happening on your timeframe isn't a reason that it shouldn't happen, or is in any way erroneous.

I know someone with a fairly open and shut case re: employment inequity, it's reached the point where a settlement is agreed upon, and the complainant is getting almost every one of their demands in a settlement, and the lawyers are just dealing with language in the agreement.  It's been over 2 years since the initial complaint.

That's with one complainant, not 22, and not a high profile case.  There's an expression, the wheels of justice move slowly, but grind exceedingly fine.  Just because it's not happening on your timeframe, doesn't mean it's incorrect. 

im sure your friend and the company, all parties involved are not stopped from working. there lifes are not on hold for 2 years.

the wheels of justice do move slow. investigations takes years sometimes. thats why were innocent until proven guilty. 

imagine if the police came out after every crime and told us who they thought did it or who they were investigating? that guy could never get a job. who would hire him? thats why they do those investigations in private. you dont even know who did it until they are arrested. but not here. 

he is already guilty in the court of public opinion, who cares how many years he sits right?. but if that was any one of us we would be pretty mad.

[ZachEY]

34 minutes ago, IntoTheGreen said:

Wait...you claim not to know the psychology of people you never met - Watson

Did I?

[ZachEY]

2 minutes ago, doitny said:

im sure your friend and the company, all parties involved are not stopped from working. there lifes are not on hold for 2 years.

the wheels of justice do move slow. investigations takes years sometimes. thats why were innocent until proven guilty. 

imagine if the police came out after every crime and told us who they thought did it or who they were investigating? that guy could never get a job. who would hire him? thats why they do those investigations in private. you dont even know who did it until they are arrested. but not here. 

he is already guilty in the court of public opinion, who cares how many years he sits right?. but if that was any one of us we would be pretty mad.

This is my material understanding of Watson "not working."  Let me know if/where I am wrong.

Watson stated he will, in no uncertain terms, play for the Texans again.

The news on Watson came out.

The Texans signed Tyrod Taylor and drafted Davis Mills.

The Texans make Watson, who, again, said he would not play for them, and never publicly changed that tune, inactive for every game in 2021.

The Texans pay Deshaun Watson 10.5 million dollars to be inactive every game this season.

As of today, no team has been willing to trade for Deshaun Watson.

----

So, with that said, where is the crime?  Watson doesn't want to play of the Texans and the Texans don't want Watson to play for them, still, they've fulfilled their contractual obligation to him.  Is the crime that no team wants to trade for him and meet that asking price for the risk?  That's a big ask of any GM, and not far from the Kaepernick situation.  No owner wanted to bring that media attention to town.  And before you say, Watson > Kaepernick, of course that's true.  But, Kaepernick's crime and cost were far less.  Watson you need to invest a minimum of 2 first round picks (probably more) and 35 million dollars to have him as your starting QB next year.  So, you can take whatever stance you want, but in reality, there's 31 other NFL teams, many of which already have QBs, so there's maybe, what 5 owners and GMs in play here, and one of them has to say he's worth 35M and our entire future.  It's certainly understandable if no one green lights that.

[JiF]

1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

I thought it was a general rub and tug place... wasn't aware of sex trafficking.  There's a million of those places where you can go and pay for a massage and a hand job.  I am not as up on every detail as well, but I thought that was generally a harmless, but embarrassing encounter.  If that's not the case, and Kraft was knowingly involved, yes, that was something far more nefarious.  It's also possible that Kraft was unaware of how the women came to be there - sex trade isn't all sex trafficking.

As for Watson, I can't speak to the psychologies of people I've never met, nor heard speak, nor do I know the details of these occurrences.  What I do know is that often times, a woman will feel powerless to act.  And while there may not be someone physically restraining them, there may have been a number of reasons why.  I don't have the answers, but I also can't presume that because I don't have the answers, 22 people gathered with the same goal, and fairly flawlessly put this hit job together.

Never said that or anything close to it.  I was just asking questions because I was seeking to understand.  Anywho, that place was definitely linked to a large sex trafficking ring.  Just confirmed it on the google. 

 

 

[JiF]

1 hour ago, Peace Frog said:

 

As much as I hate to admit it, I think the sex trafficking thing was made up or massively overstated. Kraft is still a scumbag. 

As is Watson. 

fwiw, I did a google, bunch of articles that it was part of a larger ring with very long connections.  

[Peace Frog]

11 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

fwiw, I did a google, bunch of articles that it was part of a larger ring with very long connections.  

Yeah, I get that but at the time it was CLEARLY a sex trafficking ring, AWFUL DISGUSTING blahblahblah but whether it was Kraft of not, that talk seemed to quickly die down and it was just your run-of-the-mill rub and tug shop. Still not great but not as nefarious as originally thought.  I think the original reports or the investigators were being overzealous.

Who knows.  

[Peace Frog]

15 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

 with very long connections.  

What you did there, I see.  

[JiF]

7 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Yeah, I get that but at the time it was CLEARLY a sex trafficking ring, AWFUL DISGUSTING blahblahblah but whether it was Kraft of not, that talk seemed to quickly die down and it was just your run-of-the-mill rub and tug shop. Still not great but not as nefarious as originally thought.  I think the original reports or the investigators were being overzealous.

Who knows.  

Oh yeah, I dont think it was Kraft was part of the trafficking, so I guess from that perspective he wouldnt know the women were trafficked but when he was arrested, it was part of a bigger operation that stretched long.