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Key Distinction Between Zach and Sam going into Year 2


johnnysd
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On 1/27/2022 at 3:44 PM, LAD_Brooklyn said:

In other words, no excuses right?!

What does that even mean?

It's like you're hoping for failure.

The kid needs to continue to progress, and certainly being in year two of the same system should help that effort.

If he's not better in year two than he was in year that will be a problem - if that's what you mean by no excuses then I agree.

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As we discussed on this board before, coaching is very powerful in the NFL.

Newly acquired and rookie QBs often surprise other teams because their opponents do not have enough tape on them.  Sanchez did the same thing.  My suspicion is that Darnold surprised teams when he came back from his injury in year 1, but when you combined the off season tape review and the mono, Darnold and Gase could not make the next chess moves to continue to compete.

That is the power and value to a QB of a strong, powerful running game.  Opponents know you are going to run, but you are so strong and well-coached they can’t stop it unless you fumble.  

So Wilson, Lafleur, Benton and Co will need to continue to correct, improve and evolve to counter the tape that the Jets 2022 opponents are reviewing RIGHT NOW to counter Wilson’s tendencies that he showed in 2021.   Once the NFL figured out Sanchez and he lost his running game, he was toast.   Players like Rodgers and Mahomes, and their weapons, are so good the coaches can’t stop them.  

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3 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Feel good post and all but not sure a change of coaches will correct or hamper Zachs inability to throw a screen pass. 
 

Some of it it’s just on talent and the ability to play in the league. 

I expect vast improvement in this area of his game or will be calling Houston to report a problem. Thankfully improving the screen game is extremely possible.... much more than teaching a guy how to have arm talent.

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3 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

Feel good post and all but not sure a change of coaches will correct or hamper Zachs inability to throw a screen pass. 
 

Some of it it’s just on talent and the ability to play in the league. 

He was really solid on that the last few games but good to see the Zach hater club still going strong.

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On 1/28/2022 at 7:18 AM, Cut Jet Penalty Makers said:

You're not paying attention...it was said on the SNY postgame show.

I watch every postgame show.  You hear what you want to hear.  That’s not what they said

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The key distinction between Zach and most rookie QBs is that the speed of the game was a much bigger adjustment due to the LOC in college. Many guys who come out of the non-power 5 conferences struggle in their rookie years for that exact reason, but come year 2/3 it clicks. 

Personally, I think Sam's struggles were directly correlated with bad coaching and infrastructure 

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On 1/30/2022 at 10:01 AM, KRL said:

@football guy WR questions if you know.  With Brady out in TB and Rodgers maybe leaving GB

would Douglas open up the vault and go after Godwin and/or Adams in free agency?

The Jets are very cognizant of the need to continue surrounding Zach with pass catchers, that's for sure. I still don't know how they'll go about doing it, but in a perfect world they would add a veteran so I think everything is on the table. As for Godwin/Adams, I think their teams are going to try to keep them, and I don't know how much the Jets will be willing to spend on Godwin coming off the ACL. I do know he was our top WR FA target last year, but I think the Bucs will still try to retain him. The way I see things, if Brady definitely retires that likely means Gronk is following him out too, which should free up money for a Godwin contract. As far as Adams, I think people are jumping the gun thinking he'll be available. They will find a way to clean up the cap enough to at least tag him. To make matters more restrictive, he has to want to play for us. If Aaron gets traded, I could see him really pushing to join him wherever he goes. I also think the Raiders are a real possibility for him for various reasons. 

We'll find out a lot more this week, but understanding where Calvin Ridley is at will be one of the first priorities. If the rumors are true, I think a change in geographical location will be exactly what the doctor ordered, but hard to say at this point that he would prefer to move to the Jets over other teams. He doesn't have a choice, but you're not going to trade for a player if his long-term future is out of the question. I also think the Jets will absolutely consider returning to the draft well again, even if they prefer addressing the position before it. Can't help but wonder if Joe is paying attention to some of these teams and how they've grown their receiver rooms (see Cincinnati). 

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On 1/27/2022 at 2:01 PM, Joe W. Namath said:

But shouldnt Douglas and Saleh have been fired right after the season?

Only Saleh.  Douglas has sucked but he at least showed improvement in drafting in year 2.  

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On 1/30/2022 at 6:31 AM, football guy said:

The key distinction between Zach and most rookie QBs is that the speed of the game was a much bigger adjustment due to the LOC in college. Many guys who come out of the non-power 5 conferences struggle in their rookie years for that exact reason, but come year 2/3 it clicks. 

Personally, I think Sam's struggles were directly correlated with bad coaching and infrastructure 

I think the adjustment to the speed of the games was what I misjudged on Zach. It was a bigger jump that expected. Would you agree that towards the end of the season Zach seemed to be comfortable with the speed of the game?

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What does that even mean?
It's like you're hoping for failure.
The kid needs to continue to progress, and certainly being in year two of the same system should help that effort.
If he's not better in year two than he was in year that will be a problem - if that's what you mean by no excuses then I agree.


I think it means the kid had better start showing he’s worthy of us having used the #2 overall on him. You keep wanting to hang your hat on his second half “improvement” this past season as some sort of mountain of accomplishment. Let’s be clear, he was pretty awful the second half of the season. Tack on all the excuses you want as to why he was awful, but he was awful. Just because it was slightly less awful than he was first half doesn’t mean anyone should be content. If he’s not a concensus top 15 QB next season then we need to start moving on.


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9 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

I think the adjustment to the speed of the games was what I misjudged on Zach. It was a bigger jump that expected. Would you agree that towards the end of the season Zach seemed to be comfortable with the speed of the game?

Absolutely. We saw a much more decisive player to close the season, and what really leaves me feeling bullish on him is the amount of anticipatory throws he made down the stretch. Those throws are all about timing, so the fact that he made a few of them so precisely is an indication that the speed of the game started to become second nature to him.  

In retrospect, the Jets probably could've made things more simple for Zach to begin the season by running more RPO and Air Raid concepts which in turn probably would've allowed him to rip it more and play more confidently, but I think asking him to execute the offense the way it had been designed will ultimately be much better for him in the long-run. He's going to be a good one, and I think we'll see a big jump in his play from year 1 to year 2, then year 2 to year 3. 

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On 1/27/2022 at 1:57 PM, johnnysd said:

I do not see this being mentioned much, but Zach goes into year 2 with the same system and same coaches. This is huge. HUGE

NFL teams keep making the same mistake:

They draft a QB, team struggles, then they fire the head coach and then the high draft pick has to go into Season 2 getting used to new coaches, new schemes, new players, and especially new terminology and new QB coaches.

So whatever strides they made are reset, and instead of having a productive offseason and just building on what they know, they have to relearn everything.

And frankly it ruins QB prospects.

It happened with Sam. It happened with Daniel Jones and now he is in same situation but trying to save his career. 

Next year both Fields and Lawrence will be in this situation.

David Mills who to me might have been the most impressive rookie QB is in this situation and as a lower round pick may not be given a 2nd year chance.

But Zach has none of these burdens. He can work with Beck all offseason who was part of the Jets staff, he does not need to learn new terminology or playbooks, he has the same coaches.... He can just focus on building on what he learned and perfecting it.

People used to say that the biggest jump year to year for a football player was Year 1 to 2. But so many QBs now are being robbed of that.

It is a good reason to be really excited for the development of Zach. He has the perfect situation to build on all the improvement he showed at the end of the season.

 

 

 

Lawrence and Fields are miles better off having a new HC in year 2 if the new HC is competent.  Sam sucks, it's not the system.  If Houston is sticking with Watson Davis Mills will get a shot somewhere else and be better off.  

If the Jets HC is a fraud there is no upside in developing a potential franchise QB with him simply for continuity.  Sunk costs have to be put behind you ASAP in all cases. 

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On 1/27/2022 at 2:28 PM, Jets Voice of Reason said:

The Jets get rightfully criticized, but they really deserve praise for hiring John Beck in the creative way to circumvent the offseason rules to allow him to continue working with him. With the Knapp tragedy throwing a curveball, they could have easily just been satisfied with Cavanaugh, but invested in the coaching support to have made a difference.  And while it should have been an offseason move, getting an actual veteran QB in the room who has been successful in the NFL showed they were serious about giving Zach resources.

Sam never worked hard enough to get better. Being an year 4 pro and still having the same bad footwork makes me feel compelled to say that. Accuracy and quick decision-making and reading defenses may be less coachable to a degree, but having bad mechanics 4 years into an NFL program with starting qb reps is inexcusable and that's squarely on him.

This is a big offseason for the Jets, if Zach takes a step forward and we have another foundational offseason, I'll actually start expecting wins next year for the first time in about a decade.

 

 

How many years do you think we will need Zach's tutor?  I hope he has a break out season this upcoming season.  I don't think that will happen, but one can hope.

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24 minutes ago, football guy said:

Absolutely. We saw a much more decisive player to close the season, and what really leaves me feeling bullish on him is the amount of anticipatory throws he made down the stretch. Those throws are all about timing, so the fact that he made a few of them so precisely is an indication that the speed of the game started to become second nature to him.  

In retrospect, the Jets probably could've made things more simple for Zach to begin the season by running more RPO and Air Raid concepts which in turn probably would've allowed him to rip it more and play more confidently, but I think asking him to execute the offense the way it had been designed will ultimately be much better for him in the long-run. He's going to be a good one, and I think we'll see a big jump in his play from year 1 to year 2, then year 2 to year 3. 

They way they called plays for Zach in the first 6 games was incredibly maddening. Run Run Pass from 12 personnel over and over and over when our personnel did not fit it at all.

I completely agree he would have started faster with RPOs and Air Raid Concepts but maybe you are right that in the long term staying within the "system" will be better in the long run.

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35 minutes ago, Fantasy Island said:

How many years do you think we will need Zach's tutor?  I hope he has a break out season this upcoming season.  I don't think that will happen, but one can hope.

I think it's a years thing as much as it is the fact that we hired rookie coaches everywhere from head coach on down, so their learning curves were steep. I'm not in that coaching room so I have no idea if Rob Calabrese is any good, but you'd hope the right thing to do is he's competent and is able to do a better job in his 2nd year with a person supporting him as an offensive quality control coach.

The larger point for me is that the Jets have underinvested in their coaching staff in the past, to their detriment in performance. Doing dumb stuff like not hiring offensive quality control coaches for instance.

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