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Should NFL fine the Giants?


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The facts aren’t in yet obviously but it seems like Flores made an assumption and let his emotions take over and took a flamethrower out.  
 

Would he actually feel better if the Giants canceled his interview if indeed they had already made a final decision? Not even give him a chance to hit a home run?

it’s unlikely that belicheat will disclose his source for his information. 

I doubt it goes to the level of subpoena. 

the second the giants hired schoen , with jones a similar QB to Allen, Daboll became a 98% hire. He would have had to show up drunk to the interview to lose the job. 
 

if the Giants did actually hire Judge on Belicheats recommendation, isn’t it logical to assume belicheat recommended Daboll?

Of course it’s possible it was racism in the end, I just can’t see a path where Flores can prove it based on his argument so far. 

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1 hour ago, Ghost420 said:

Blame the rule not the team. They shouldn't be forced to interview people when they already knew who they wanted.

By they you mean the owners who are partners in something called NFL Football.  The NFL run by the owners have set up a divesity committee for the sole purpose of defending themselves against attacks of racism.  That committe, set up by the Commissioner with the blessing of the owners actually strengthened the rule this year.

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“League and club leadership must reflect America’s diversity,” Jonathan Beane, the NFL’s senior vice president and chief diversity and inclusion officer, and Fritz Pollard Alliance Executive Director Rod Graves said in a statement.

I'm not a fan of the Rooney rule.  I do think an organization that has someone with the title "Senior VP and Chief diversity and inclusion officer" is trying to cover up their lack of diversity and inclusion.  It's almost an absurd satire to be real.

The team, abides by these rules becaue the owners want cover for their behavior.   Why does the NFL have an internal organization like this if they don't recognize that their private club needs public cover?

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If Brian Flores was in fact the candidate that was required for the rooney rule - then there has to be a more thorough investigation and the Giants could be open to some type of fine/penalty. This all assumes the timing of when Daboll was formally offered the job as well.

Many lessons to learn here including always listen to your father. Mine wanted me to be a corporate lawyer - of course I would not listen and wanted no part of it. Seeing what I see and working with a few over the years, it is kind of like having a lottery ticket.

 

 

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1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

I honestly don't  think a fine is warranted. It isn't like someone was hired that was not qualified to do the job. This kind of thing happens in every industry.  When I was playing bass for a living, after an audition for a wedding band, the band leader told me not to leave, just sit for a while. I doubt anyone is going to cut you and I have to be accommodating to some of these other people. 

It's  just the way it is. Sometimes you find the right guy early and you know he is the one you want. 

I thought you were a drummer.

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23 minutes ago, Biggs said:

 

The team, abides by these rules becaue the owners want cover for their behavior.   Why does the NFL have an internal organization like this if they don't recognize that their private club needs public cover?

Sounds like your poking at something way bigger than the NFL. Every corporation, university etc has this these days.

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2 hours ago, playtowinthegame said:

But if text messages are found that show they never intended to hire them it should be a violation. The NFL has to investigate this after the leaked Belichick text messages.

It probably should be, but it's not clear that it currently is. 

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2 hours ago, playtowinthegame said:

If they investigate the Giants and find anymore text messages that corroborate the Belichick text messages, and it shows clearly the Flores interview was indeed just a sham, then Roger Goodell has to drop the hammer on the Giants for violating the Rooney Rule.

I don't believe Roger Goodell has ever fined an NFL team for violating the Rooney Rule. 

Matt Millen was fined $200,000 by then-Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, who apparently warned teams that the floor for further violations would be $500,000.

When will Roger fine a team for violating the Rooney Rule? 

They do not appear to have violated the rule.

Interviewing someone despite having a favorite already in hand does not make it a sham. 

Right now, based on what has been reported, there will be no fine. The problem appears to be a complete lack of understanding by folks as to what hiring processes look like.

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2 hours ago, playtowinthegame said:

If they investigate the Giants and find anymore text messages that corroborate the Belichick text messages, and it shows clearly the Flores interview was indeed just a sham, then Roger Goodell has to drop the hammer on the Giants for violating the Rooney Rule.

I don't believe Roger Goodell has ever fined an NFL team for violating the Rooney Rule. 

Matt Millen was fined $200,000 by then-Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, who apparently warned teams that the floor for further violations would be $500,000.

When will Roger fine a team for violating the Rooney Rule? 

I'm very wary of this line of thinking. 

Maybe he hasn't fined anyone because teams have learned to comply with the Rooney Rule? You can't hand out punishments based on reaching a quota. You can only punish teams when they have actually violated a rule. 

My impression is that the Rooney rule itself is inadequate, not that teams are getting away with breaking it. 

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1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

How can texts prove they had no intentions of hiring him?  Tomlinson was interviewed after the Steelers hired a HC and he impressed them so much they changed their minds.  
 

If they're is any text that proves Flores was not a genuine interview and only the Giants showing "interest" in him to satisfy the Rooney Rule then Goodell needs to make the Giants give up their 1st round pick and pay a million dollar fine.

F the Giants

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2 hours ago, jamesr said:

They had interviewed at least two minority candidates before Daboll ... they didn't violate the Rooney rule.

Just letting you know they did not because Rooney Rule indicates 1 of the interviews has to be in person which up to the point of Flores’ interview they had not had an in-person minority interview. Graham and Frazier were virtual. 
 

So if they held an in-person sham interview with Flores it does not meet rule as process was not a good faith assessment of candidates. 

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19 minutes ago, Warfish said:

They do not appear to have violated the rule.

Interviewing someone despite having a favorite already in hand does not make it a sham. 

Right now, based on what has been reported, there will be no fine. The problem appears to be a complete lack of understanding by folks as to what hiring processes look like.

Those who are saying they should be fined are using the word IF in their comment. We don't know the facts. But if an investigations confirms there was a violation of policy, then they should be fined.

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2 hours ago, playtowinthegame said:

If they investigate the Giants and find anymore text messages that corroborate the Belichick text messages, and it shows clearly the Flores interview was indeed just a sham, then Roger Goodell has to drop the hammer on the Giants for violating the Rooney Rule.

I don't believe Roger Goodell has ever fined an NFL team for violating the Rooney Rule. 

Matt Millen was fined $200,000 by then-Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, who apparently warned teams that the floor for further violations would be $500,000.

When will Roger fine a team for violating the Rooney Rule? 

No they shouldn't. This whole thing is a complete nothing burger.

The NFL conducts interviews all the time where the person has no chance at the job. So does the entire corporate world.

But the whole lawsuit is ludicrous because Flores WAS a NFL head coach and he actually got an interview. Maybe the Giants were just interested in learning more about him and putting him in the mix for DC. That happens with former head coaches all of the time.

And in addition not all of the fired head coaches got interviews. Were they discriminated against too.

Say the Jets when they interviewed Salah 3 years ago were already set on Gase when they interviewed Saleh. But they liked what they heard and when the next opportunity came up he got the job.

Plus, the entire lawsuit predisposes that he WAS the best candidate and should have gotten the job. So in essence he is saying he expected a sham interview on his side where he was just rubberstamped and got the job.

It is ludicrous, and actually hurtful for minorities to get more head coaching jobs,

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12 minutes ago, Be_a_Jet said:

Just letting you know they did not because Rooney Rule indicates 1 of the interviews has to be in person which up to the point of Flores’ interview they had not had an in-person minority interview. Graham and Frazier were virtual. 
 

So if they held an in-person sham interview with Flores it does not meet rule as process was not a good faith assessment of candidates. 

Thanks for this. Didn't realize both the previous ones were virtual. Or that Graham was an internal interview so doesn't count either way.

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25 minutes ago, Warfish said:

They do not appear to have violated the rule.

Interviewing someone despite having a favorite already in hand does not make it a sham. 

Right now, based on what has been reported, there will be no fine. The problem appears to be a complete lack of understanding by folks as to what hiring processes look like.

This is not correct. The Rooney Rule requires an in-person interview with a minority candidate from outside the organization. Prior to Flores' in-person interview no other minority candidate had been seen in person. Only Leslie Frazier, who was on tele-conference. Graham was in house and doesn't meet Rooney requirement. So Flores is on solid ground in arguing that Daboll was picked (based on Bill's texts) prior to any minority candidate being seen in-person.

Here's the timeline:

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/timeline-new-york-giants-head-coach-interviews-rooney-rule-requirement/591390

 

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1 minute ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

This is not correct. The Rooney Rule requires an in-person interview with a minority candidate from outside the organization. Prior to Flores' in-person interview no other minority candidate had been seen in person. Only Leslie Frazier, who was on tele-conference. Graham was in house and doesn't meet Rooney requirement. So Flores is on solid ground in arguing that Daboll was picked (based on Bill's texts) prior to any minority candidate being seen in-person.

Here's the timeline:

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/timeline-new-york-giants-head-coach-interviews-rooney-rule-requirement/591390

 

They’d have to have proof an offer letter were signed prior to the interview. 
 

And haven’t the in person rules been relaxed bc of Covid?

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Just now, Matt39 said:

They’d have to have proof an offer letter were signed prior to the interview. 
 

And haven’t the in person rules been relaxed bc of Covid?

Discovery process if they go to trial. They'll subpoena Daboll as well as the Giants. I don't think it has to be a signed offer. Verbal would be enough for this kind of case. And no, I don't believe there was any exception for Covid.

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23 minutes ago, Be_a_Jet said:

Just letting you know they did not because Rooney Rule indicates 1 of the interviews has to be in person which up to the point of Flores’ interview they had not had an in-person minority interview. Graham and Frazier were virtual. 
 

So if they held an in-person sham interview with Flores it does not meet rule as process was not a good faith assessment of candidates. 

So then this should be very straightforward and simple (we know it won't be) what constitutes an offer and was that done in any way prior to finishing the in person interview with Brian Flores? 

That should and could be answered in minutes.  

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To me, the flimsy bit in all of this is the language in the BB texts.

"Sounds like ..." 

"I think ..."

Where did BB get his updates from? Was it fact based, rumour based, and will we ever find out? Why would the Giants be telling BB anything about their intentions, especially that early in the process?

It's certainly not a good look for the team or the league, but in my opinion it will never stand up under scrutiny. Which may be something that Flores is 100% aware of, but if he doesn't file the suit then this all gets very little attention. 

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6 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Discovery process if they go to trial. They'll subpoena Daboll as well as the Giants. I don't think it has to be a signed offer. Verbal would be enough for this kind of case. And no, I don't believe there was any exception for Covid.

I don't think so.

I don't believe there is a violation of the rule if, during Daboll's interview, the Giants say "Brian, we think you're our guy.  We still have some interviews left to conduct and league hiring rules to meet as you know, but we're very impressed with you, and we think you're our man.  Please don't take anyone else's offers, pretty please, while we conduct the rest of our interviews".

The above would not make the follow-up interviews "shams", those applicants would still have the power to blow the Giants away during their interview, and change their minds (I've had that happen myself).  Also, the Giants have every right to think Daboll IS their guy, but still have to perform the remaining interviews if required to meet league rules.

Tell me, is it better for the NFL if a team interviews a Daboll first, can't hire him because of the Rooney Rule, and while they are interviewing others they lose Daboll to another sudden suitor?  Perhaps that IS the intent, to force NFL teams to interview only minority candidates first, out of fear if they interview a non-minority candidate first and like him, that every interview after that will be called a "sham" and not in meeting the intent of the rule.  If so, this will surely lead to more actual sham interviews up front to get them out of the way before they interview their real applicant pool/preferences.

We'll just have to see I guess.

 

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1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

Sounds like your poking at something way bigger than the NFL. Every corporation, university etc has this these days.

Yea, I don't think it's a symptom of the NFL exclusively. Is there a coaching Union that fights for their rights like the NFLPA? I can't imagine the NFL wants that but maybe it's a consideration.

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7 minutes ago, jamesr said:

To me, the flimsy bit in all of this is the language in the BB texts.

"Sounds like ..." 

"I think ..."

Where did BB get his updates from? Was it fact based, rumour based, and will we ever find out? Why would the Giants be telling BB anything about their intentions, especially that early in the process?

It's certainly not a good look for the team or the league, but in my opinion it will never stand up under scrutiny. Which may be something that Flores is 100% aware of, but if he doesn't file the suit then this all gets very little attention. 

Giants likely called Bill to talk about Daboll and Flores since ownership and Bill are close, have always been rumors about him coming back to coach the Giants.

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3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Yea, I don't think it's a symptom of the NFL exclusively. Is there a coaching Union that fights for their rights like the NFLPA? I can't imagine the NFL wants that but maybe it's a consideration.

Could be a solution to help. Also keep in mind many coordinators go through several years of HC interviews before they finally land the HC job. Ironically Flores skipped that process.

Marcus Brady was just promoted to Colts OC. A name to look out for  next coaching cycle. 

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I know defending the Giants isn't cool here, but I can see them having set their sights on Daboll from Day 1.  In a normal world, you'd bring him in as soon as possible, and if you liked him still, you'd make the offer to pre-empt another team bringing him in and blowing your offer away.

Under the RR, you have to bring him in, tell him you like him, but you can't make an offer until you've run at least two more interviews.  Now let's say you have a hard time getting one of those other interviews in because of scheduling, or because your team sucks and no decent candidates of any race want to talk to you.  What are you supposed to do?  Meanwhile, another team rolls through it's RR interviews, brings your guy in and blows him away with a huge offer. 

The whole concept is broken.  The NFL should certainly work on ways to promote more diversity in hiring at the coaching and management levels, but the RR doesn't seem like the answer.

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5 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Could be a solution to help. Also keep in mind many coordinators go through several years of HC interviews before they finally land the HC job. Ironically Flores skipped that process.

Marcus Brady was just promoted to Colts OC. A name to look out for  next coaching cycle. 

Then you get guys like Josh McCown (who I really like) getting interviewed for HC multiple times while never having held a coaching position in the NFL haha 

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22 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

This is not correct. The Rooney Rule requires an in-person interview with a minority candidate from outside the organization. Prior to Flores' in-person interview no other minority candidate had been seen in person. Only Leslie Frazier, who was on tele-conference. Graham was in house and doesn't meet Rooney requirement. So Flores is on solid ground in arguing that Daboll was picked (based on Bill's texts) prior to any minority candidate being seen in-person.

Here's the timeline:

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/timeline-new-york-giants-head-coach-interviews-rooney-rule-requirement/591390

 

Belichick is a very calculated and intelligent guy, and I can't get past him being that stupid when he sent that text to Brian Flores, who's a former assistant coach of his, and this comes after the Giants fired a former assistant coach of his, Joe Judge. It's almost as if Bill Belichick wanted to stick it to the Giants by exposing them with a text message that shows he knew from someone inside the Giants org who leaked the job was Brian Dabols and the Flores interview as merely the Giants going through the motions to satisfy the Rooney Rule requirements. I know Brian Flores is saying he hasn't spoken to Bill Belichick since he made those Belichick's text public, but I'm not buying Bill is all upset at Flores for leaking the text. Belichick is like a chess player, and he knows what he's doing with every text he makes or word he speaks. Belichick is like F the Giants for firing Judge and then using my former DC to satisfy the Rooney Rule. I'm not saying this is true, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was.

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7 minutes ago, nycdan said:

 

The whole concept is broken.  The NFL should certainly work on ways to promote more diversity in hiring at the coaching and management levels, but the RR doesn't seem like the answer.

The way to promote more diversity is starting from the ground up, not the overarching bullhorn approach that ESPN is doing. 

Take a look at all of the OC’s and DC’s in the league. Wunderkinds like Mcvay are rare. 95% of these guys started as GA’s making minimum wage living in a dorm taking Masters classes. It’s not for everyone. Maybe the NFL needs to change their approach in getting people into coaching. But it’s more or less a family business like cops and firemen. Typically coaches are sons of coaches. And then of course it’s the time and effort required to work your way up from college GA to quality assistant then maybe to position coach at a major school or NFL program. For the vast majority it doesn’t work out.

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3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Then you get guys like Josh McCown (who I really like) getting interviewed for HC multiple times while never having held a coaching position in the NFL haha 

The Texans don’t know what they’re doing. 

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14 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Then you get guys like Josh McCown (who I really like) getting interviewed for HC multiple times while never having held a coaching position in the NFL haha 

Multiple times? :shock:

Who other than the Texans is interviewing him?

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