The last 2 SB losers…

[Jetsfan80]

44 minutes ago, OilfieldJet said:

Lol, everyone is below average?

In terms of baseline expectations for what an OL needs to be able to do in the NFL, sure, I could buy that the majority of teams are below average on the OL.  Likely because there's a shortage of great OL talent out there (while pass rushers are getting more and more freakishly good by comparison), and on top of that, teams who already paid their QB's are unable to devote adequate resources to the OL (as well  as other positions on the field).

Just like if the average IQ at a workplace was 85, you wouldn't say that an 85 IQ is now "average".  100 would still be the average.  The workforce you have in place just sucks.

[Integrity28]

8 hours ago, doitny said:

ok so what do you consider investment. i already showed you two 1st rd picks and a 2nd rd pick. 

You showed me picks that led to Burrow getting hurt last year. Recognizing past draft picks aren’t working is part of the deal. 

 

[UntouchableCrew]

5 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I've read some comments like "too bad Cincy didn't win but they're talented and young so their future is bright".  I really don't understand that type of attitude though, especially since we haven't even been to a SB in 50+ years.  Cincy hadn't gone in 33 years. 

I thought this when we lost in 2009.

Never again. You have no idea what the future holds, Joe Burrow or not. In that loaded young AFC the odds the Bengals never make it to the Super Bowl are better than that they make it.

[UntouchableCrew]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

In terms of baseline expectations for what an OL needs to be able to do in the NFL, sure, I could buy that the majority of teams are below average on the OL.  Likely because there's a shortage of great OL talent out there, and on top of that, teams who already paid their QB's are unable to devote adequate resources to the OL (as well  as other positions on the field).

Just like if the average IQ at a workplace was 85, you wouldn't say that an 85 IQ is now "average".  100 would still be the average.  The workforce you have in place just sucks.

OL play collectively has declined under the new CBA. It's one of those positions where you need reps to build chemistry -- the improvement of the Jets OL from Week 1 to Week 17 speaks to that too.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I thought this when we lost in 2009.

Never again. You have no idea what the future holds, Joe Burrow or not. In that loaded young AFC the odds the Bengals never make it to the Super Bowl are better than that they make it.

At least they'll be perennial contenders for a long time with Burrow, regardless.  The Rams mortgaged their future and the bill will be coming due for that soon, particularly when you consider they don't have a 1st round pick till what, 2025?

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

OL play collectively has declined under the new CBA. It's one of those positions where you need reps to build chemistry -- the improvement of the Jets OL from Week 1 to Week 17 speaks to that too.

True, but by that logic the Bengals OL shouldn't have been having the issues they had yesterday.  They were healthy and a unit that should, theoretically, have "gelled" by now.  

[sec101row23]

6 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

OL play collectively has declined under the new CBA. It's one of those positions where you need reps to build chemistry -- the improvement of the Jets OL from Week 1 to Week 17 speaks to that too.

Agreed.   O-line is different than any other position group.   They function as a unit, the sum is greater than the parts.   You don’t need all-pros all over the line, just need capable players functioning as a unit and have some decent depth behind them.  

[Jetsfan80]

50 minutes ago, 68JET11 said:

Bengals get to this game because Burrow can handle a pass rush and has top WR's.  Give Burrow a better OL, and that game wouldn't have come down to the last drive by the Rams. It would have been over sooner.

Don't try an convince us old folk, even though the game has changed that OL and DL still aren't the most important positions on the field other than the QB. It won't work. Games today are still won in the trenches and nobody can convince someone with knowledge of football otherwise.

At least we can finally confirm that below average or even bad OL play doesn't make a QB play poorly 100 % of the time. 

Between Burrow's performance all year and Herbert's performance all year last year, it's not a viable excuse for bad QB play.  Bad OL play can only prevent a QB from perhaps achieving the next level up.  And conversely, good OL play can't take a QB who sucks and make him good.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Agreed.   O-line is different than any other position group.   They function as a unit, the sum is greater than the parts.   You don’t need all-pros all over the line, just need capable players functioning as a unit and have some decent depth behind them.  

You do generally need an elite or at least high-end LT, however.  The list of teams who have appeared in SB's over the years are strewn with elite LT's.  

The rest of the OL, yes, they can be just capable guys and nothing more.

[TuscanyTile2]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You do generally need an elite or at least high-end LT, however.  The list of teams who have appeared in SB's over the years are strewn with elite LT's.  

The rest of the OL, yes, they can be just capable guys and nothing more.

And right handed QBs to go with those elite LT's.  And if ever there was a game to have an elite LT in, Super Bowl 56 would be the one.

[Jetsfan80]

28 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Correct.

Similar to how we drafted Brick, Mangold, Revis, Harris, Cotchery, Leon, Brad Smith, Kerry Rhodes, etc. and then went out and added Calvin Pace, Kris Jenkins, Alan Faneca, Damien Woody, and then swung on Favre.

And only teams who are already good can attract an elite veteran QB.  Tom Brady and Matthew Stafford wouldn't have come to play for this sh*t team in a million years.  Each of them would only have agreed to go to a team that could contend, which each of those teams were in position to do.  The Bucs weren't great in 2019 (7-9), but they had an established offensive genius in Bruce Arians and just needed a QB.  The Rams, of course, had been to a SB with Jared Goff under center.

And yeah, Favre came to the Jets the year after they went 4-12.  But Pennington missed half of that season and clearly was one of the biggest issues with the team that year even when he did play.  In 2006, the Jets had made the playoffs.

So if the plan is for the Jets to just go get someone like Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, etc if/when Zach Wilson fails, you'd better hope that the team already has a bunch of attractive pieces already in place first.  It's not enough just to have a lot of cap space.  Veteran QB's like those have enough money.  They want a ring.

[UntouchableCrew]

14 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And only teams who are already good can attract an elite veteran QB.  Tom Brady and Matthew Stafford wouldn't have come to play for this sh*t team in a million years.  Each of them would only have agreed to go to a team that could contend, which each of those teams were in position to do.  The Bucs weren't great in 2019 (7-9), but they had an established offensive genius in Bruce Arians and just needed a QB.  The Rams, of course, had been to a SB with Jared Goff under center.

And yeah, Favre came to the Jets the year after they went 4-12.  But Pennington missed half of that season and clearly was one of the biggest issues with the team that year even when he did play.  In 2006, the Jets had made the playoffs.

So if the plan is for the Jets to just go get someone like Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, etc if/when Zach Wilson fails, you'd better hope that the team already has a bunch of attractive pieces already in place first.  It's not enough just to have a lot of cap space.  Veteran QB's like those have enough money.  They want a ring.

Agreed, and I'd apply the same logic to good WRs. You either need to draft them or be good enough that they'd want to come here. Disgruntled superstar WRs don't want to go to moribund offenses that haven't had success in 20 years.

[RutgersJetFan]

9 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

That was the other thread. The one I opted not to start in favor of beer.

I feel like that’s what happens now with 75% of the posts I start to type out.

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

9 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

OK, that's false.  Teams with an established core can go out and spend in free agency and trade away a bunch of draft picks.  Teams like the Jets cannot.

Yes, the Rams bought a lot of their talent, but they also had established core players like Aaron Donald (the best non-QB in the entire league), Cooper Kupp (the best WR in the league this year), and a top-end LT in Andrew Whitworth.  They didn't draft Whitworth (though he had been a Ram since 2017), but they did draft Donald and Kupp. 

The Bucs brought in Brady, but they drafted Chris Godwin, Mike Evans, Donovan Smith, Tristan Wirfs, Devin White, Vita Vea and Antoine Winfield.

If your argument is the Jets need to go on a spending spree and trade their picks to become a SB contender, you would be wrong.  You have to have an established core FIRST, then you can feel free to go ahead and mortgage the future.

Ehhhhh idk. I disagree. 

All the Rams have done since McVay has got there is be players in free agency and the trade market to build out there team. But that's because they had a QB in Goff that they thought they could win with right away. And they almost did. 

 

 

[OilfieldJet]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

At least they'll be perennial contenders for a long time with Burrow, regardless.  The Rams mortgaged their future and the bill will be coming due for that soon, particularly when you consider they don't have a 1st round pick till what, 2025?

They won the Super Bowl. Mortgaged their future? Happy to mortgage the next 50 years for a Super Bowl win. Wait....

[slats]

11 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Were loaded on offense, but couldn’t protect their QB. 

Cincy would’ve won with the Jets OL. 

[Dunnie]

Build the Great Wall of NY JD ... ignore the haters and distractions.

[JoJoTownsell1]

People are acting as if the Bengals haven't tried to rebuild their oline. Since 2018, the Bengals have drafted:

2021- 2nd Rd- Jackson Carman Tackle

2019- 1st RD- Jonah Williams Tackle

2018- 1st RD Billy Price Center

Despite all that investment in rebuilding their oline, they managed to still  have Burrow/Chase/Higgins/Mixon on offense. 

All this proves is that the draft is a crap shoot and that it is WAY more important to hit on your playmakers than your OL picks because the Bengals aren't in the SB if Burrow and Higgins suck but their Oline picks are great. 

[shawn306]

1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

OL play collectively has declined under the new CBA. It's one of those positions where you need reps to build chemistry -- the improvement of the Jets OL from Week 1 to Week 17 speaks to that too.

Yup....the way the CBA is right now it is if you are rebuilding your O-Line it isn't until about week 4 or 5 before you really know what you have.

[Sperm Edwards]

9 hours ago, doitny said:

but they did invest in the OL . 

2022 - 2nd, 4th, 6th rd

2019- 1st and 4th rd

2018 1st rd C Price who got traded to the Giants before the year. 

Cin further brought in a veteran LT to play RT for them. Had been good for 15-16 starts in 6 of his 8 prior seasons, and in the other two he started 13 & 14 games. Last year he missed 1 game, to covid-19. 2021 is the first season he'd gone on IR.

All that with Reiff - who was also brought in to be LT insurance against Williams getting injured again - really should be enough. Reiff had been a rock-solid pass blocker for years (gave up just 1 sack the prior season, like Fant this season).

9 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Over 4 drafts.  Which is decent, I suppose.  But for the first of of those 1st rounders (Price in '18) it was very clear early on that he wasn't going to work out, meaning he was a sunk cost.

Not taking an OL until the 6th round in the 2020 draft made no sense.  Especially since Jonah Williams had just suffered an injury that cost him the entire 2019 season.  

Cin

• LT = 2019 1st rounder (overall pick #11).
• LG = 30 yr old veteran starter acquired in mid-2020.
• C = Hopkins (Cin starting center since beating out 1st rounder Price; prev at least an average pass blocker)
• RG = 2021 mid-2nd round pick
• RT = veteran starting LT who'd just once (back in 2018) missed as many as 3 starts in the prior 8 seasons
• also reacquired one of the supposedly better OL coaches (by reputation) in the league, replacing one of the worst

Beyond just the OL, in the 2021 offseason they parted with or upgraded from these 2020 starters: RT Bobby Hart, LG Michael Jordan, RG Alex Redmond, WR AJ Green, RB Bernard, DT Mike Daniels, (and though he didn't start in 2020, DT Geno Atkins, who'd been almost Aaron Donald for the prior decade). Also this year got full seasons out of 2020-injured starters in RB Mixon, TE Uzomah, and LT Williams.

The Bengals' OL investment dwarfs what Rams put into their 2021 OL:

• LT = 40 year old Whitworth making $6MM; missed more games in 2020 than Jonah Williams.
• LG = 2019 5th rounder
• C = 2018 4th rounder
• RG = traded a 5th rounder to Cleveland for a failed 2018 draft pick
• RT = 2015 late 2nd round pick (signed to half what the top RTs make)

From an investment standpoint, the Rams had as close to a bare-bones OL as a team could put together. It obviously worked for them, but not because they dumped heavy team resources into their line. Quite the contrary: the Rams' highest draft pick investment was a 2nd rounder (pick #57) back in 2015, and at $8MM this year he was also their highest-paid veteran.

Like the Bengals losing Reiff, delete the best veteran tackle from the Rams' OL and tell me Stafford is still just as comfortable back there.

[IndianaJet]

Bengals were in the Super Bowl because they won a sh*tty division.  Then in the playoffs they drew a sh*tty Raiders team in the first round, the Titans with Ryan Tannehill doing Ryan Tannehill things, and the Chiefs and Mahomes completely collapsing in the second half of the AFC championship.

If OBJ doesn't get hurt on a freak play and the refs don't gift the Bengals a 75 yard touchdown, the Rams would have won this game by 2-3 touchdowns.

Despite Burrow and Chase the Bengals were and are a flawed middle of the pack team who caught a lot of breaks this year.  Those flaws start with the o-line.

 

[doitny]

2 hours ago, Dunnie said:

false narrative

so they get to the SB if they draft Sewell over Chase? i think not

[TheClashFan]

Why do we keep trying to compare the Jets to whoever the current SB teams are?  Each team in the league is in unique situations.

The Jets suffered through 5 years of Mike Mac virtually ignoring the OL.  Neither Cincy or the Rams had to recover from someone like him in the recent past.  Mac only drafted 3 OL in 5 years, none higher than the later 3rd round, and none turned out well.  He also signed some JAG free agents who were pretty crappy.  

So, when JD took over, he had to try to "jump start" the OL with picks in the 1st and 4th rounds two years ago.  Unfortunately, neither of those guys played in the regular season this past year. One is now retired and other a serious threat to totally bust this year.  AVT looked good last year, so that Jets have only ONE young OL who looks like a potential stud.  They still need to build some young talent and depth, even if you like and want to keep Fant and McGovern long-term (both had knee injuries late last year).  Becton can't be counted on for anything, though they shouldn't give up on him, yet.

Having said that, I don't think the Jets must take an OL in the first round.  The OT class looks pretty deep, and they could wait.  I hope they do consider Linderbaum at 10, but only if they do believe that he's extra special. If they go WR there, fine!  But then grab an OT in the 2nd and an good C/G prospect in the 3rd.  But if JD wants to go OT with the 4th pick, fine...but he needs to nail that pick.  No more Bectons.

 

 

[sourceworx]

11 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Conversely, the last two winners built teams in ways that we’ve been consistently told franchises shouldn’t build.

Mike Tannenbaum was ahead of his time.

[Sperm Edwards]

2021 was never viewed as a push all their chips into the middle, type of season for the Bengals the way the Rams did. They won 4 games last year ffs, which is how they were even in a position to draft Chase (and Burrow the year before). 

From the tone it's almost as though some of of our hindsight GMs - surely the same ones who thought it was crazy to draft Chase instead of the obvious/safe/smart pick in Sewell - one would think they'd have considered 2021 a better building block season for the Bengals as an "up and comer" team if they got bounced in the WC round (or missed the playoffs outright, like the Chargers).

That they got this far makes it easy to pick at areas they were weaker, as though this season would've ended just the same except for improvements. Like everyone should've known ahead of the season that Reiff would go on IR in Dec and all 3 of their drafted OLmen would be meh or duds as rookies.

They aren't and weren't a finished product in 2021. They were overmatched by a better team in the Super Bowl and still nearly pulled it out. Bummer for them last night, but they're a young SB team with $60MM in cap space for 2022.

It'll be a lot easier for them to shore up a few loose ends on their roster this year than last year. 

[TuscanyTile2]

6 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

Mike Tannenbaum was ahead of his time.

He was GM'ing where football was going

[IndianaJet]

22 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

Bengals were in the Super Bowl because they won a sh*tty division.  Then in the playoffs they drew a sh*tty Raiders team in the first round, the Titans with Ryan Tannehill doing Ryan Tannehill things, and the Chiefs and Mahomes completely collapsing in the second half of the AFC championship.

If OBJ doesn't get hurt on a freak play and the refs don't gift the Bengals a 75 yard touchdown, the Rams would have won this game by 2-3 touchdowns.

Despite Burrow and Chase the Bengals were and are a flawed middle of the pack team who caught a lot of breaks this year.  Those flaws start with the o-line.

 

I'll add another "break" the Bengals got...that was Burrow getting hurt last year.  If Burrow doesn't get hurt they're never in a position to make the choice between Chase and Sewell.

Bengals got ALL. THE. BREAKS.

The Jets NEVER. GET. THE. BREAKS.

[Dunnie]

so they get to the SB if they draft Sewell over Chase? i think not

Sorry that is not what i was saying ... i was trying to say Chase being god doens make that an axiom.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Ehhhhh idk. I disagree. 

All the Rams have done since McVay has got there is be players in free agency and the trade market to build out there team. But that's because they had a QB in Goff that they thought they could win with right away. And they almost did. 

It's a lot easier to do that when you have a talent like Aaron Donald on the defensive side of the ball.  He makes everything easier.  He's been THAT good.  By far the best and most valuable non-QB in the league.  And everyone wants to play with that guy.  Without Donald, none of this is really possible.

And again, they found Kupp in the 3rd round.  That's huge too.  You're not supposed to be able to find one of the game's best receivers in round 3.

The Jets don't have anyone who is remotely in the ballpark of a Donald or Kupp.

[Jetsfan80]

56 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

Bengals were in the Super Bowl because they won a sh*tty division.  Then in the playoffs they drew a sh*tty Raiders team in the first round, the Titans with Ryan Tannehill doing Ryan Tannehill things, and the Chiefs and Mahomes completely collapsing in the second half of the AFC championship.

You had me going until this.  You can't just dismiss the Bengals' win over KC.  Cincy's defense, which was criminally underrated all year, had a huge part to play in Mahomes and the Chiefs collapsing.  

[Jetsfan80]

43 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

Mike Tannenbaum was ahead of his time.

It certainly wasn't the worst decision to try to go "all in" with that 2010 team.  The "career suicide" mistake by Tannenbaum was extending Sanchez in 2012. 

2012 was the time to bring in a veteran QB like the Bucs and Rams just did.  Even if Peyton didn't work out, try to go get someone else.  You simply couldn't entrust the kind of roster the Jets had with Mark Sanchez.  Extending him was a fireable offense all on its own.  

[Jetsfan80]

36 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

I'll add another "break" the Bengals got...that was Burrow getting hurt last year.  If Burrow doesn't get hurt they're never in a position to make the choice between Chase and Sewell.

Bengals got ALL. THE. BREAKS.

The Jets NEVER. GET. THE. BREAKS.

It's better to be lucky than good, and luck is a residue of design.  

Having a special talent like Burrow at QB tends to make a team seem "lucky" quite often.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, OilfieldJet said:

They won the Super Bowl. Mortgaged their future? Happy to mortgage the next 50 years for a Super Bowl win. Wait....

Please don't misunderstand.  I have no issue with the Rams doing what they did.  All I'm saying is I get why in many peoples' eyes, the "pressure" was far more on the Rams than the Bengals to win this SB.  The Bengals will be really good for a long time with Burrow.  The Rams were in the middle of a quickly closing window.  

[UntouchableCrew]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You had me going until this.  You can't just dismiss the Bengals' win over KC.  Cincy's defense, which was criminally underrated all year, had a huge part to play in Mahomes and the Chiefs collapsing.  

Bengals defense deserves credit... But that same defense got lit up like a Christmas tree by Mike White.

You won't be able to convince me that the Bills and Chiefs weren't clearly the two best teams in the AFC and that the Bengals got a bit lucky.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Bengals defense deserves credit... But that same defense got lit up like a Christmas tree by Mike White.

You won't be able to convince me that the Bills and Chiefs weren't clearly the two best teams in the AFC and that the Bengals got a bit lucky.

The Bengals who faced Mike White were a very different team than the one that went on their playoff run.

The Chiefs were at home.  They had no excuse to lose to Cincy.  If they were truly the better team, they would have won that game. 

The Bengals were clearly outmatched by the Rams, but deserve an enormous amount of credit for making the run they did.  It certainly wasn't ALL luck, and they have every right to say they really were the best team in the AFC.