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Rich Cimini and his awful take about Matthew Stafford's hall of fame career


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4 hours ago, nycdan said:

Because one great season doesn't change the entire narrative. 

ONE great season?  

He's the all-time leader of the Lions in every major passing category, is behind only Drew Brees and Peyton Manning in consecutive 4,000 yard seasons.  He is number 12 on the all-time list of passing yards and TD passes, #11 on pass completions, and just had a season where he either broke or tied 3 major all-time Rams passing records. 

ONE great season?  Gotta disagree.   This guy should, and will, be in the HOF when he hangs them up in another 4-5 years.

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13 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

ONE great season?  

He's the all-time leader of the Lions in every major passing category, is behind only Drew Brees and Peyton Manning in consecutive 4,000 yard seasons.  He is number 12 on the all-time list of passing yards and TD passes, #11 on pass completions, and just had a season where he either broke or tied 3 major all-time Rams passing records. 

ONE great season?  Gotta disagree.   This guy should, and will, be in the HOF when he hangs them up in another 4-5 years.

If he plays another 3 years even at this level and passes 60k yards, I have no doubt this will be true.  I was talking about this very moment.  He's got a good case, but I don't see him as a lock.  But with the way the Hall has been diluting itself lately, I think he's in regardless as well.  

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Twitter is a confusing place to me why would you wanna spend your time following people who have the worst thoughts and opinions on the planet?  It's like choosing to spend your time in real life hanging out with assholes who are always wrong.

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

If he plays another 3 years even at this level and passes 60k yards, I have no doubt this will be true.  I was talking about this very moment.  He's got a good case, but I don't see him as a lock.  But with the way the Hall has been diluting itself lately, I think he's in regardless as well.  

He will have better stats than Marino if he plays another 3-5 years.  So, if we think Marino is deserving, and not diluting the greatness pool, then this guy should be there as well.

 

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Does not seem like a HOF player, but then again I really don't think Eli should be in the HOF either. He can change that narrative over the next few years but what the Rams are doing is super hard to maintain. If they get any key injuries they can be a really bad team really quickly.

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I have always felt that if a guy is a HOFer, you just know it.  You don't have to look at the stats to confirm or justify it.  You saw the guy play and you know he is on a different level.  To me, Stafford is not there.  Really good QB.  Top 10 in the league throughout most of his career on some really bad teams.  I am a big fan of his, but to me, he is not a HOFer -- at least not yet, since his story is not finished.

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3 hours ago, JetsFanatic said:

Cimini is right. What are we at the point that any QB that wins a Super Bowl is HOFer? He wasn’t even the MVP. 

If winning a super bowl is the criteria then is Jim Plunkett a worthy candidate? He won two of them. Let Stafford win a couple more rings a few MVPs an ALL PRO or two before he goes in 

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10 hours ago, Biggs said:

Stafford wasn't just on a bad team.  He was in a division with a QB who was better than he was his entire career.  Stafford has always been a very good QB.  He was on a bad team but worse he wasn't as good as a guy he went up with twice a year who dominated the division.  

He's a great compiler and now he has a ring.  That gets a lot of guys in the HOF.  In no way shape or form was Stafford ever the best QB in the league or even top 4 or 5.  

I think he still gets in.  

Stafford was top 5 this year.

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21 hours ago, Biggs said:

 

Warner played on some of the most loaded teams ever.  He also arbuably had 2 of the greatest QB seasons in NFL history.  Warner, unlike Stafford was in the argument as the best QB in the league a couple of times.

Huh huh! You said arbuably!

Seriously Stafford is a very good quarterback but he's not great.

I actually was hoping we could somehow get him on the Jets for the last half decade Plus.

Really good but he's not Marino or Manning. Maybe Hall of Fame someday, but definitely not first ballot.

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Anyone think Eli doesn’t make it?  I think he’s a lock.  Eli was never the best QB in the league, not close.  Had nothing near Staffords regular season numbers, led the league in INTs twice.  
Two SBs where the D led the teams over Staffords one gets Eli in and keeps Stafford out?

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23 hours ago, nycdan said:

Because one great season doesn't change the entire narrative.  He's passed for a LOT of yards, but some of this other metrics are not compelling yet.  But if he wins one more SB, he will be a far better candidate than Eli.  

Another take on this debate.  Matt Ryan has more yards and TDs than Stafford.  Is he a lock?

I think both of them will be interesting debates.

This is a fair point. I think This if Ryan won a SB it will immediately elevate him to being a near lock. In general, I think winning a SB makes a big difference. Bigger than whether or not you came close to or broke a record or have more or less TDs or yards than the other guy (if its not by that much). 

And you have to look at the situation the two players are in. Unless Ryan leaves town and plays for a contender (Tampa Bay?). There is no way he wins a SB before retiring. Stafford could very well come back next year and make another run with LA.

Frankly, I think Stafford has another 3 years of football in him. Especially if he stays on the Rams and they can protect him and stay competitive. He's 34. Ryan, as a comparison is 36. These are the type of things that, while don't actually determine HOF contention, help you stay on the field and produce to pile up numbers and potentially win more trophies and awards.     

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I find it hilarious how people focus so much on QB wins when this season with Stafford literally just showed how much a team can hold someone back.

He could be the greatest QB ever and we’ll never know because he spent his best years burning in a dumpster fire.

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Ryan and Rivers no. Stafford, before Sunday, no. But, he lead his team on a game winning drive to victory in the Super Bowl! Thats what HOF QBs are supposed to do. Since he's only 34 and not retiring the point is moot. When all is said and done Stafford will be in Canton.

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1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Anyone think Eli doesn’t make it?  I think he’s a lock.  Eli was never the best QB in the league, not close.  Had nothing near Staffords regular season numbers, led the league in INTs twice.  
Two SBs where the D led the teams over Staffords one gets Eli in and keeps Stafford out?

I didn't realize that Eli retired being top 7 in passing yards, passing attempts, completions and touchdowns. That combined with two Super Bowl MVPs against the Patriots makes him a lock for the hall of fame. The defense assisted Eli, but he drove the team down the field when they needed them to. 

Stafford gets in with just three more seasons of decent production. 

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I remember all of the emotions years back about whether a certain RB was a 'compiler' and thus not HoF worthy.  Oddly, it feels like compilers are now being supported for HoF inclusion.  Granted, Eli had a few very good years, but never once was named All-Pro.  Cam Newton got one.  Rivers got one.  Ryan got one.  Brees, Brady, Manning and Rodgers got most of the rest during Eli's tenure.

I don't know how relevant All-Pro selections are, but they do say something about dominance in your era.  Eli was very good but I just don't see him as ever being dominant except maybe a two-year stretch in 2014-2015 when his numbers were top-5ish.  Without the two SBs and the last name, he is a vastly inferior Phillip Rivers.

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1 hour ago, Irish Jet said:

I find it hilarious how people focus so much on QB wins when this season with Stafford literally just showed how much a team can hold someone back.

He could be the greatest QB ever and we’ll never know because he spent his best years burning in a dumpster fire.

Meh, it’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Potential. Stafford may have been the Goat, but he wasn’t.

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

I remember all of the emotions years back about whether a certain RB was a 'compiler' and thus not HoF worthy.  Oddly, it feels like compilers are now being supported for HoF inclusion.  Granted, Eli had a few very good years, but never once was named All-Pro.  Cam Newton got one.  Rivers got one.  Ryan got one.  Brees, Brady, Manning and Rodgers got most of the rest during Eli's tenure.

I don't know how relevant All-Pro selections are, but they do say something about dominance in your era.  Eli was very good but I just don't see him as ever being dominant except maybe a two-year stretch in 2014-2015 when his numbers were top-5ish.  Without the two SBs and the last name, he is a vastly inferior Phillip Rivers.

All true, but, he will forever be the QB who denied Belichick and Brady their perfect season. For that he will always get special consideration!

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We'll need to see more to be certain but he's on the right track.

Would be good to get his accolades up. Only 1 pro bowl and no all pros throughout his career with not 1 season leading in a major statistical category, but he's definitely shown the talent to snatch all of those up on a team that's not actively weighing him down. 

Incredibly talented QB who has to overcome that Detroit hump but give it a few years and he'll probably be a lock Hall of Famer. 

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26 minutes ago, Jethead said:

All true, but, he will forever be the QB who denied Belichick and Brady their perfect season. For that he will always get special consideration!

This is the wild card that makes it all right with almost everyone in NY :)

 

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On 2/14/2022 at 2:40 PM, greenwichjetfan said:

Stafford on DET - much like Romo on DAL - was a QB who was better than his team, yet got all the blame for losing. I was so confident in Stafford being a great player who would finally prove it on a strong team that I bet on the Rams to make the SB the day his trade was announced. I'm happy for him.

Contrast that with guys like Rivers and Ryan who had been on some of the more talented teams in the league during various seasons and could never find a way to win, yet get so many accolades. 

Then contrast that with a guy like Brady who proved he was an all time great, but also played on great teams all the time and has 7 rings to show for it.

So yes, SB rings matter for how we view QBs, and to an extent they should. However, not all SB runs should be weighted the same.

For fun and to drive home the point that not all SB runs are created equal, I pulled some data out of profootballreference:

  • By Adjusted Yards Gained/Attempt, Stafford's '21 postseason is better than any of Brady's SB runs. Same with Y/A.
  • By Passer rating, Brady's '04 beats him by a hair, but the next best run is 8 points less in 2014.
  • Stafford also did all of this with his TE1 out and his WR1B going down in the middle of the SB.
  • Stafford's team rushed for 1.9 yards - the fewest by a SB winning team, and the second fewest postseason clip of all time. 
  • Due to this, Stafford was required to put the game on his shoulders, and accounted for 86% of the team's yards - more than any of Brady's SB runs and probably amongst the highest of any SB winning QB (haven't confirmed it yet)
  • For Stafford's offenses, three consecutive come-from behind game winning drives to win a SB Championship - again, never been done before 

image.thumb.png.2d3cf78ec0dcc191519e3c295e77623e.png

I think Stafford will continue to play for another 3-5 years and continue to accumulate the requisite volume stats to be considered. After that, I think this SB run alone should put him over the top to get in, because it was unlike anything we've ever seen before. 

 

 

Today I decided to try another exercise using raw data from Pro Football Reference. This one was significantly more annoying because I couldn't find a place to have all of the data that I wanted together. So I had to pull multiple extracts and run various functions, but finally, here we are. Below is the breakdown of all SB QBs by Wins, Losses, HoF status, and HoF eligibility.

  • Total SB Quarterbacks: 65
  • SB Winners + HoF: 15
  • SB Winners but no HoF: 9
  • SB Winners but not yet eligible for HoF: 10
  • SB Appearances without a win + HoF: 3
  • SB Appearances without a win but no HoF: 23
  • SB Appearances without a win and not yet eligible for HoF: 5

Yards: I couldn't find total yards easily, so I've kept the below analysis to only regular season yards because it still proves the point. 
Of the 9 SB Winners that are HoF eligible but not in the HoF, only one of them threw for more than 30k yards: Phil Simms (33.4k). Stafford is 5 yards away from 50k yards. Only 11 QBs have ever thrown for 50k yards. All of the other SB winners who have thrown for more than 50k yards are locked in as 1st ballot HoFers. The last 2 SB winners not to be elected to the HoF in his first year of eligibility were Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer - and for good reasons.

image.png.77abb0558799f622cd5b4db5beb5cb35.png

As I concluded in my last post, as long as Stafford has another 3 healthy seasons and jump into the top 10. If we extend that 1 more year, he'll finish somewhere between 5-7 (depending on how Rodgers and Ryan finish out their careers). If playoffs continue to be a factor, he might finish with 70k yards total. Even if he doesn't win another ring, that, along with this past year's incredible SB run make him a HoF lock.

Touching on Richard Sherman's points:

  • No All Decade Team - stupid prerequisite for the HoF to begin with, and also his playing career overlapped with four different Mt. Rushmore level QBs. 
  • No All Pro - Staubach, Elway, Moon, and Aikman also have no All-Pros.
  • Pro-Bowl - again, his career overlapped with the likes of Rodgers and Brees.
  • Never considered the best of his generation: Again, his playing career overlapped with four different Mt. Rushmore level QBs.

While Sherman isn't wrong about the things he said, it's ridiculous to fault Stafford for having the misfortune of playing at the same time as Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, and Brees. If anything, the narrative should be that the moment he found himself on a capable team, he elevated himself and his team to the tune of 6k yards, 50 TDs, and 3 GW come-from-behind drives to win a SB ring. 

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8 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Anyone think Eli doesn’t make it?  I think he’s a lock.  Eli was never the best QB in the league, not close.  Had nothing near Staffords regular season numbers, led the league in INTs twice.  
Two SBs where the D led the teams over Staffords one gets Eli in and keeps Stafford out?

You hit the nail on the head. Eli will make it with two SB wins….if that’s the case not sure why Stafford doesn’t make it with one SB.

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If the refs didnt gift the rams those penalties we are all here saying how typical Stafford overthrew a wide open receiver for a touchdown in the endzone to win the game and his team lost. Horrible effing throw. Absolutely effing horrible.

 

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If the refs didnt gift the rams those penalties we are all here saying how typical Stafford overthrew a wide open receiver for a touchdown in the endzone to win the game and his team lost. Horrible effing throw. Absolutely effing horrible.
 
Nah brah nah ... wed be talking about the refs gifting the Bungles the game by not calling the obvious Chase facemask on the 1st touchdown.
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I find it hilarious how people focus so much on QB wins when this season with Stafford literally just showed how much a team can hold someone back.
He could be the greatest QB ever and we’ll never know because he spent his best years burning in a dumpster fire.
This ... this ... this .... this ..... this .... this..... this .... this ... this .... this


Oh yeah .... and....

This.
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