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Matthew Stafford's rookie year

Jetsbb

By Jetsbb
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The Crusher

The Crusher

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Posted
1 minute ago, Warfish said:

I get it, but discussing Zach in a hopeful manner really should be about what Zach does well (his great arm), the physical and mental tools he posesses, the spots where he improved over the course of last year, how new weapons might help him develop/be better, etc.

"Durrrr, but Stafford and Manning, so Wilson" is the surest sign of a desperate fan, not an optimistic fan.

Exactly.  The massive reduction in turnovers IS a huge positive.  That it cost offensive production and was mostly in lopsided losses is a problem, but one step at a time.  Clean up the decision making, then focus on producing more in 2022.

I also think him having his receivers healthy and catching balls when the ball is near  or even close-ish would help. Not making excuses but can’t help but wonder how receiver drops effects a rookie QB trying to figure things out, I understand,” just pick yourself self up by bootstraps” but I’d imagine no matter how determined they are it gets to them at least a bit. Yet, another positive with Zach is he did  seem to become mentally tougher after his injury and the offense started to click for him. Would have been nice if he had more time late with his receiver core intact, maybe next year? 

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Warfish

Warfish

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4 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

I also think him having his receivers healthy and catching balls when the ball is near  or even close-ish would help. Not making excuses but can’t help but wonder how receiver drops effects a rookie QB trying to figure things out, I understand,” just pick yourself self up by bootstraps” but I’d imagine no matter how determined they are it gets to them at least a bit. Yet, another positive with Zach is he did  seem to become mentally tougher after his injury and the offense started to click for him. Would have been nice if he had more time late with his receiver core intact, maybe next year? 

You're talking to a guy who would legitimately consider drafting WR at BOTH #4 and #10 this draft :D  And TE in the 2nd too!

Clearly I am all-in on providing Zach with weaponz.  I may have my doubts about Zach's future, but I'll be damned if I'll sit idle what the Jets do to Zach what they did to Sam Darnold, leaving young QB's with utterly ineffective supporting skill position players.

With that said, at some point, JD needs to be held to account for his picks and FA choices, including the overall fragility of the players he signs/picks and the teams he runs.  But that is a separate conversation.

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The Crusher

The Crusher

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You're talking to a guy who would legitimately consider drafting WR at BOTH #4 and #10 this draft :D  And TE in the 2nd too!

Clearly I am all-in on providing Zach with weaponz.  I may have my doubts about Zach's future, but I'll be damned if I'll sit idle what the Jets do to Zach what they did to Sam Darnold, leaving young QB's with utterly ineffective supporting skill position players.

With that said, at some point, JD needs to be held to account for his picks and FA choices, including the overall fragility of the players he signs/picks and the teams he runs.  But that is a separate conversation.

Touché and well said my brother. 

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rtnelson

rtnelson

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Posted
7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You're talking to a guy who would legitimately consider drafting WR at BOTH #4 and #10 this draft :D

Clearly I am all-in on providing Zach with weaponz.  I may have my doubts about Zach's future, but I'll be damned if I'll sit idle what the Jets do to Zach what they did to Sam Darnold, leaving young QB's with utterly ineffective supporting skill position players.

With that said, at some point, JD needs to be held to account for his picks, including the overall fragility of the teams he runs.  But that is a separate conversation.

If the Jets WR's are getting consistent separation and the OL isn't melting down and we're not finding ways to move the ball through the air still coming up with some excuses why Zach looks bad.  I'm on board the Zach sux train.  But with the inconsistency of the team around him and young rookie OC it's little wonder why the season started so rough.  By the time Zach "put it together" there was essentially nobody to throw to.

Regardless if Zach is the man or not, any QB is going to need better options than the Jets have.  Worst case scenario a new QB should have some good young talent around him in 23' if Zach doesn't pan out so we can stop with the weaponzzz talk.

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Biggs

Biggs

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12 hours ago, Snell41 said:

I just love how people constantly have to dig up random QB’s who sucked as a rookie to compare and justify Zach Wilson sucking. Hey man it’s ok our guys sucks balls, some other guys sucked too. If you’d like I can list the QB’s who continued to suck balls after their rookie season but I don’t think this site allows enough characters in a post. Just ridiculous.


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Did you know Bill Parcells won 3 games his rookie year as HC of the NY Giants.  

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k-met57

k-met57

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On 2/15/2022 at 4:46 PM, varjet said:

Stafford and Allen are basically the best, if not only, examples of QBs who were terrible their rookie year but turned it around and got better.   There are at least 20 QBs who were that bad who never were decent. 

I think Zach Wilson is going to be ok. 

lets just also keep in mind that QB's starting year 1 is a fairly new thing. A lot of older QB's sat for at least a year some two years before they got to go play. QB's today are made to play day 1. I am not sure anyone can definitively say Aaron Rodgers is Aardon Rodgers if he doesn't sit behind Favre, or even Mahomes is Mahomes if he doesn't sit before Alex Smith.

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k-met57

k-met57

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53 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You're talking to a guy who would legitimately consider drafting WR at BOTH #4 and #10 this draft :D  And TE in the 2nd too!

Clearly I am all-in on providing Zach with weaponz.  I may have my doubts about Zach's future, but I'll be damned if I'll sit idle what the Jets do to Zach what they did to Sam Darnold, leaving young QB's with utterly ineffective supporting skill position players.

With that said, at some point, JD needs to be held to account for his picks and FA choices, including the overall fragility of the players he signs/picks and the teams he runs.  But that is a separate conversation.

this draft is huge for JD. Never mind the fact that he has a ton of assets, but he also has a chance to remove the stink of the 2020 draft and leave it in the past as a "gase thing". Having 2 stellar drafts in a row would go a long way towards validating his actions as GM.

And i 100% agree on weapons weapons weapons. If you prove that Wilson is the guy by surrounding him with TE, Receiver, OL, RB...you then have at least 2-3 drafts/FA periods to build a defense the way you want it. Not to mention that a byproduct of having a defensive coordinator for coach, should be getting more out of less on that side of the ball!!

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Snell41

Snell41

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Posted
If the Jets WR's are getting consistent separation and the OL isn't melting down and we're not finding ways to move the ball through the air still coming up with some excuses why Zach looks bad.  I'm on board the Zach sux train.  But with the inconsistency of the team around him and young rookie OC it's little wonder why the season started so rough.  By the time Zach "put it together" there was essentially nobody to throw to.
Regardless if Zach is the man or not, any QB is going to need better options than the Jets have.  Worst case scenario a new QB should have some good young talent around him in 23' if Zach doesn't pan out so we can stop with the weaponzzz talk.


The narrative that our Oline was so awful is just comically untrue. They certainly weren’t elite but they were a lot better than CIN as one example. Furthermore, they improved the moment both Mike White and Flacco came in. The QB has a ton of responsibility on recognizing a D presnap and both adjusting pass protection and routes at the line to acccomodate. He’s also supposed to recognize a hot route. Zach doesn’t know anything about sh*t presnap, that’s incredibly evident, and frankly he’s not bright post snap either. But I’m not bashing an OL that played extremely well overall considering what they had to work with behind center. Fant played at an elite level, which is mind boggling g given how his QB is literally doing everything he can to make an OL look bad.


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extmenace

extmenace

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Posted
14 hours ago, nycdan said:

Mahomes sat for a year behind Alex Smith.

Burrow basically had a red shirt year himself thanks to the injury.

Yep, Peyton led the league in INTs and threw for a 56.7% completion rate his rookie year.

Drew Brees sat his first year, had a barely average second year, and then was terrible in his third year before turning it around and having a top-5 career.

The list goes on.  Herbert was such an extreme outlier he should have a horn growing out of his forehead.

Burrow was playing pretty damn well in his rookie year if my memory is correct.

Regardless if mahomes sat out, him being that good in his first year starting is also an extreme outlier.

i doubt we’ll see qb’s play that good, that early very often. We just happen to see 3 guys within a few year period do it. 

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maury77

maury77

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16 hours ago, Snell41 said:

I just love how people constantly have to dig up random QB’s who sucked as a rookie to compare and justify Zach Wilson sucking. Hey man it’s ok our guys sucks balls, some other guys sucked too. If you’d like I can list the QB’s who continued to suck balls after their rookie season but I don’t think this site allows enough characters in a post. Just ridiculous.


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People almost always point to Peyton's rookie year in this exercise, it appears they are now moving onto Stafford as the modern red herring. 

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Hal N of Provo

Hal N of Provo

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25 minutes ago, maury77 said:

People almost always point to Peyton's rookie year in this exercise, it appears they are now moving onto Stafford as the modern red herring. 

Nobody knows yet.  Jury is out. Aaron Rodgers is another comp - he was awful while he learned during his first two seasons on the bench.  There are plenty of QB examples who busted or made it from where Zach was as a rookie.   
 

 We can wait a season to see how it all shakes out.  

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EM31

EM31

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On 2/15/2022 at 4:22 PM, Jetsbb said:

Everybody talks about Josh Allen making that jump but what about Stafford's rookie year? 53% 13TD 20INT 61 rating 37.1 QBR. This for all those jumping off the Zach Wilson train.

So we think Zack might me ready to lead us (or another team) to a Super bowl win some time in 2034? 

Good to know!

<edited to add>

Ryan Leaf also sucked in his rookie year, does that mean NFL teams may have collectively given up on him too soon? (asking for a friend)

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GangGreen Machine

GangGreen Machine

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Posted
On 2/15/2022 at 1:55 PM, extmenace said:

Aikmen, Eli manning, Peyton Manning, John Elway are a few others that come to mind. People seeing Mahomes, Herbert, and Burrow starting off amazing have made people forget how hard it is for a young QB. I wasn't a fan of the Wilson pick but I'm also not going to throw dirt on him either.  A not-so-great rookie season on a not-so-great team isn't enough to say wilson will be good or bad. Plenty of other QB's that have played that have had bad rookie seasons that wound up having decent to good to great careers. lets hope wilson is one of them.

I'm thinking the same for Brees having a bad year or two as well. Also guys like Rodgers, Lamar, and Mahomes had some redshirt time to figure things out so we will never know how much they might have struggled. 

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Biggs

Biggs

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, maury77 said:

People almost always point to Peyton's rookie year in this exercise, it appears they are now moving onto Stafford as the modern red herring. 

If Zach looked remotely as good as Peyton in his rookie year we wouldn't have threads like this.  Peyton balled his rookie year.  The Colts were No. 6 in passing yards and No. 8 in passing TD's in his rookie year.   The idea that Peyton sucked his rookie year based on his high INT's is a dumb narative.  

 

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GKnight83

GKnight83

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Posted
15 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

So not Jeff Smith DJ Montgomery Corey Davis dropping balls, Keelan Cole, Tarik Black?

My point has nothing to do with Jet receivers dropping balls - or Detroit receivers either, for that matter.

If the statement had been ... "first year QBs need time to develop with their receivers" ...I would 100% agree.

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Jimmy 2 Times

Jimmy 2 Times

Posted
Posted

The lack of support the board shows Zach is stunning.  

None of you get to hide behind, " I'm glad I was wrong" bull sh*t excuse if he develops.  

He might bust like 99% of the quarterbacks in our franchise's history, but I'm going to remain positive.

There's nothing wrong with supporting a kid until he shows you he can't do it. 

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Snell41

Snell41

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Posted
The lack of support the board shows Zach is stunning.  
None of you get to hide behind, " I'm glad I was wrong" bull sh*t excuse if he develops.  
He might bust like 99% of the quarterbacks in our franchise's history, but I'm going to remain positive.
There's nothing wrong with supporting a kid until he shows you he can't do it. 


The kid is being paid millions of dollars. Remaining positive doesn’t help him or anyone. In fact you’re irrelevant to ZW just like I am. I thought he was an awful QB prospect before he was even on our radar as a possibility at 2 overall. I was mortified when he ended up on our radar and even more so that we drafted him. If there’s ever a prospect that needed a couple years to learn the NFL game it was Zach Wilson. At very best i felt he was a late 1st round prospect and I still probably wouldn’t have drafted him there either because there’d still be pressure to start him. Everything I couldn’t stand about him as a prospect reared it’s head prominently over the course of the season and I don’t see him improving much next year. His mental acumen for the NFL game is severely limited.


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heymangold

heymangold

Posted
Posted

We gotta stop comparing our QBs rookie seasons to greats.  The jets have had a history of not supporting their rookie QBs.  So far wilson, Darnold, geno.  They supported sanchez and look where it led them, 2 straight afc champ games.  It’s time to give the kid some real talent on the offensive side.

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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

Posted
Posted
On 2/17/2022 at 9:14 PM, Snell41 said:

I just love how people constantly have to dig up random QB’s who sucked as a rookie to compare and justify Zach Wilson sucking. Hey man it’s ok our guys sucks balls, some other guys sucked too. If you’d like I can list the QB’s who continued to suck balls after their rookie season but I don’t think this site allows enough characters in a post. Just ridiculous.


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I can vouch for the fact that this site has no limits on characters / words / paragraphs / volumes in a post.

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TuscanyTile2

TuscanyTile2

Posted
Posted
On 2/15/2022 at 4:22 PM, Jetsbb said:

Everybody talks about Josh Allen making that jump but what about Stafford's rookie year? 53% 13TD 20INT 61 rating 37.1 QBR. This for all those jumping off the Zach Wilson train.

The problem with stuff like this is that it's easy for a QB to have a bad first season.  The hard part is making the jump to being competent followed by being good then great.   If you want to say "don't give up on Zach yet", I don't think anyone is.  And even if some fans are, the team is giving him a 2nd season, which is all that matters.

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Peace Frog

Peace Frog

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, cincy jets fan12 said:

He’s better than Wilson.  Not sure how that’s even considered a troll remark considering Wilson had a completely mediocre rookie year

He’s been sitting on a bench for 3 years and played 1 great game without throwing a pass more than 10 yards in the air. Stop embarrassing yourself. He’s nowhere near as good as Wilson, much less better. 

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