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Is this shaping up to be one of the deepest and most talented Edge rusher Drafts in a while?


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Just now, Peace Frog said:

The basics are Oline WR and TE. 

OT/Edge/WR/CB/TE are where teams should invest top draft and FA capitol.

The OL can be built with 2 good/all-pro tackles and serviceable IOL. There aren't enough 1st round picks to use 5 on the OL.

I get that it's an offensive league and the Jets need weapons but the D also needs help.

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Yes, its a deep pass rusher group. And the Jets should and probably will double dip. I would not be surprised if it was 2 guys with different skill sets as they are also hurting at the LB position and may lose a couple of rotational interior linemen.

Will they hit this year? I dunno. I guess we will see. JD seems to have whiffed on Mims but gotten a good one in Moore. Whiffed on Zuniga but hit on Hall. 

I think no matter how deep the draft is, it makes sense to target a Pass Rusher early this year. Its a highly sought-after position and the best guys will go early. 

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On 2/18/2022 at 7:45 PM, shuler82 said:

You want a G at #4 over a pass rusher?

Disbelief Reaction GIF

If the jets draft Ojabo they need to go back to a 3-4.  Ojabo does not fit the 4-3 at all

 

That would also help Quinnen Williams who played like an all pro two years ago and then fell off a cliff playing in a 4-3

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On 2/18/2022 at 6:26 PM, Big_Slick said:

AVT looks like he'll be be a mid to top level offensive guard and I'm happy to have him on the team, but, JD way overpaid for an interior offensive lineman. Don't forget the two third rounds picks it took to move up, one at the top of the round. Those picks should have been used to build depth and the first rounder should have been used on a premium position.

Good GM's find non-premium guys in FA and day 2/3 and that includes interior offensive lineman.

Day one board should only have Edge, OT, WR and CB.

People continue to say it was two 3rds but it was really one and a move down 15 spots into the 4th which at that point in the draft is meaningless so we really lost that one 3rd to move into the top 10.  Also they said they were shocked Carter fell all the way to the forth and would have taken him in the third. 

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On 2/18/2022 at 5:31 PM, jetstream23 said:

AVT is a great OG and some people even think #14 was too high for him (I don't).  You want an OG at #4?

 

Colts had no issue taking a guard at 6, the difference between Ikem and Nelson is that Ikem can also play Tackle at a high level. He may not be as good Nelson is at guard but he can play both positions which gives the Jets flexibility if he was to be the pick.

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On 2/18/2022 at 5:21 PM, Peace Frog said:

That's why we wait to the top of round 2.

OFFENSE in Rd 1.  

The G/T at 4 and WR at 10.  

No Sauce, no Stingley. 

No, you grab the best Edge on your board early. Waiting until round two means missing out on the premium talent. A guard at #4? Gracias, no. 

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59 minutes ago, slats said:

No, you grab the best Edge on your board early. Waiting until round two means missing out on the premium talent. A guard at #4? Gracias, no. 

Not what I said.

That’s if the top 2 Edges are gone. If one is there, you 100% take him but if not, I’m not using 4 on a guy similar to one who we can get at 33 or 35. And he’s not just a Guard, he’s a G for a year or 2 at most and then a bookend tackle. Who knows, if Bechton really is a big fat lazy slob or Fant gets injured early he may be a starting tackle sooner than we think. It’s not like I’m suggesting a C at 4. 

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20 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Not what I said.

That’s if the top 2 Edges are gone. If one is there, you 100% take him but if not, I’m not using 4 on a guy similar to one who we can get at 33 or 35. And he’s not just a Guard, he’s a G for a year or 2 at most and then a bookend tackle. Who knows, if Bechton really is a big fat lazy slob or Fant gets injured early he may be a starting tackle sooner than we think. It’s not like I’m suggesting a C at 4. 

If the top two Edges are gone at #4, I’m probably taking the next one on my board. And -who knows?- they may have these guys ranked differently than the media and fans and be drafting the Edge they liked first or second. I’m not drafting a guard or future tackle/tackle insurance at #4 overall. That’s crazy, especially with two first rounders spent on the OL in the last two years. They need to sign a solid RG and swing tackle in free agency, and I’m good with them bringing back LDT and Moses in those roles. 
 
I think it’s presumptuous to expect that you could get a similar Edge at #10, let alone #34. That’s where need meets value in this draft. Passing on the Edge because they think they can get one in the second round is a fool’s game. I’ll tell you what you can get in the second and third rounds: a starting caliber guard. If they like an Edge who they don’t think will make it to #10, they need to pounce. 

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29 minutes ago, slats said:

If the top two Edges are gone at #4, I’m probably taking the next one on my board. And -who knows?- they may have these guys ranked differently than the media and fans and be drafting the Edge they liked first or second. I’m not drafting a guard or future tackle/tackle insurance at #4 overall. That’s crazy, especially with two first rounders spent on the OL in the last two years. They need to sign a solid RG and swing tackle in free agency, and I’m good with them bringing back LDT and Moses in those roles. 
 
I think it’s presumptuous to expect that you could get a similar Edge at #10, let alone #34. That’s where need meets value in this draft. Passing on the Edge because they think they can get one in the second round is a fool’s game. I’ll tell you what you can get in the second and third rounds: a starting caliber guard. If they like an Edge who they don’t think will make it to #10, they need to pounce. 

Just going by what the draft gurus are saying. The Penn State guy could be there at 35 and may turn out the be better than Ojabu or Karlaftis. 

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22 minutes ago, slats said:

If the top two Edges are gone at #4, I’m probably taking the next one on my board. And -who knows?- they may have these guys ranked differently than the media and fans and be drafting the Edge they liked first or second. I’m not drafting a guard or future tackle/tackle insurance at #4 overall. That’s crazy, especially with two first rounders spent on the OL in the last two years. They need to sign a solid RG and swing tackle in free agency, and I’m good with them bringing back LDT and Moses in those roles. 
 
I think it’s presumptuous to expect that you could get a similar Edge at #10, let alone #34. That’s where need meets value in this draft. Passing on the Edge because they think they can get one in the second round is a fool’s game. I’ll tell you what you can get in the second and third rounds: a starting caliber guard. If they like an Edge who they don’t think will make it to #10, they need to pounce. 

Besides, I don’t consider Okwonu as insurance for anything. 

We could find a GVR in FA and get Zach killed or grab a stud that has little chance of busting. 

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57 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Not what I said.

That’s if the top 2 Edges are gone. If one is there, you 100% take him but if not, I’m not using 4 on a guy similar to one who we can get at 35 or 38.  And he’s not just a Guard, he’s a G for a year or 2 at most and then a bookend tackle. Who knows, if Bechton really is a big fat lazy slob or Fant gets injured early he may be a starting tackle sooner than we think. It’s not like I’m suggesting a C at 4. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

We could find a GVR in FA and get Zach killed or grab a stud that has little chance of busting. 

I'm pretty certain GVR and badly over-drafting a guard with the #4 pick in the draft aren't the only/binary choices.

In free agency, if they're still unsigned when FA begins:

  • RG:
    • Laken Tomlinson (zero learning curve for the Jets' blocking; would be a lock & key fit if SF doesn't extend him)
    • They could also sign an experienced zb center like Kelce and put him at guard or move McGovern over. At 34 he won't be expensive and will surely slide right in better than any rookie for this season.
  • A swing tackle. Though really a backup RT is all that's needed, seeing how both Fant & Becton can play either tackle position. Plenty of candidates: 
    • Jason Peters. Could easily play both sides or many games at a time without getting the QB killed; won't be expensive at all; experience zone blocking, and doing so at a high level at that
    • Matt Pryor, if the Colts re-sign Eric Fisher (they don't have a 1st round pick to draft another, and while he wasn't his prior model of consistency it was his first year back from an Achilles injury from Jan '21 & I don't know that they view Pryor as an every-game starter at LT. They're also neck-deep in a recent contract for Braden Smith and have to extend Nelson to major dollars. 
    • Morgan Moses, even if he's a bit overpriced for a backup. Devil you know, and all that, plus a 2nd year in the same scheme will only improve things, and 17 games is a long season.
    • There are others, but few I'd be comfortable with 12+ starts. Maybe the best of the rest is Quessenberry (started every game at RT for zone blocking Ten OL in 2021, and 7 games at LT in 2020, but no need to save $2-4MM for this season).
    • Or pick someone else.

Anyway, keep the #4 pick to draft an edge rusher. Or trade out of the slot to add another high pick this year or next year. Surely someone else will be interested in our pick for an OT, an edge we passionately love, a QB, or a DB someone else feels is better use of their resources than ponying up $20MM+ per year for a veteran FA corner or $17MM/year safety.

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On 2/18/2022 at 5:31 PM, jetstream23 said:

AVT is a great OG and some people even think #14 was too high for him (I don't).  You want an OG at #4?

 

 

On 2/18/2022 at 6:26 PM, Big_Slick said:

AVT looks like he'll be be a mid to top level offensive guard and I'm happy to have him on the team, but, JD way overpaid for an interior offensive lineman. Don't forget the two third rounds picks it took to move up, one at the top of the round. Those picks should have been used to build depth and the first rounder should have been used on a premium position.

Good GM's find non-premium guys in FA and day 2/3 and that includes interior offensive lineman.

Day one board should only have Edge, OT, WR and CB.

FWIW, if the Jets take OL at 4 it's obviously going to be a guy who projects as a OT long term even if he starts at RG as a rookie.

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm pretty certain GVR and badly over-drafting a guard with the #4 pick in the draft aren't the only/binary choices.

In free agency, if they're still unsigned when FA begins:

  • RG:
    • Laken Tomlinson (zero learning curve for the Jets' blocking; would be a lock & key fit if SF doesn't extend him)
    • They could also sign an experienced zb center like Kelce and put him at guard or move McGovern over. At 34 he won't be expensive and will surely slide right in better than any rookie for this season.
  • A swing tackle. Though really a backup RT is all that's needed, seeing how both Fant & Becton can play either tackle position. Plenty of candidates: 
    • Jason Peters. Could easily play both sides or many games at a time without getting the QB killed; won't be expensive at all; experience zone blocking, and doing so at a high level at that
    • Matt Pryor, if the Colts re-sign Eric Fisher (they don't have a 1st round pick to draft another, and while he wasn't his prior model of consistency it was his first year back from an Achilles injury from Jan '21 & I don't know that they view Pryor as an every-game starter at LT. They're also neck-deep in a recent contract for Braden Smith and have to extend Nelson to major dollars. 
    • Morgan Moses, even if he's a bit overpriced for a backup. Devil you know, and all that, plus a 2nd year in the same scheme will only improve things, and 17 games is a long season.
    • There are others, but few I'd be comfortable with 12+ starts. Maybe the best of the rest is Quessenberry (started every game at RT for zone blocking Ten OL in 2021, and 7 games at LT in 2020, but no need to save $2-4MM for this season).
    • Or pick someone else.

Anyway, keep the #4 pick to draft an edge rusher. Or trade out of the slot to add another high pick this year or next year. Surely someone else will be interested in our pick for an OT, an edge we passionately love, a QB, or a DB someone else feels is better use of their resources than ponying up $20MM+ per year for a veteran FA corner or $17MM/year safety.

I’ve been pretty consistent. 

1.  I want one of the top 2 (not the next 3-4) edges at 4. 

2.  If they are gone, trade out. 

3. If we cannot trade out (which I don’t think will come to fruition), get me an absolute stud to build an impregnable line at a position that rarely busts. 

Of course we WANT to sign someone better than GVR but if our plan is to sigh FA “X” guard being punted by his team, the likelihood we get a plug and play stud concerns me. Maybe Duvernay is the guy, but maybe a year later he’s lost a step. 

I don’t want to take a defensive player any player at 4 because the top 2 options are gone, we can’t trade out and a guy at 35 might be as good or better than the 3-4 next “rated” edge players.

All just opinions mind you. 

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1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

 

FWIW, if the Jets take OL at 4 it's obviously going to be a guy who projects as a OT long term even if he starts at RG as a rookie.

Exactly. They keep trotting out the “can’t draft a guard at 4” nonsense. He’s not a guard. That’s only where he starts his 12 year career. 

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6 minutes ago, GangGreen Machine said:

Do you think he is a better tackle than Fant or Becton? 

How would anyone possibly know that. 

Love Fant but he is going to be 30 before the start of the season.

Love Bechton but who knows what shape he’s in or where his head/heart is at. 

None of us know Ekwonu from a hole in the wall other that from what we’ve all discerned lately from all the draft gurus. Apparently the dude is a monster, is an incredible tackle but folks think he can kick inside for a bit (played T and G at NC State). “A+ physical traits with a high motor and a mean streak.” I like those guys. 

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On 2/18/2022 at 5:31 PM, jetstream23 said:

AVT is a great OG and some people even think #14 was too high for him (I don't).  You want an OG at #4?

 

Not rocket science...

Becton  has been disappointing, and Fant is in his last year of his deal.

They'll draft an OT. If the stars align, and Becton returns/plays and improves and Fant returns to last years form, you play the new guy at LG for a year as insurance to step in for Becton if he disappoints, or for Fant if he prices himself out, or god forbid one of them gets injured again.

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7 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

How would anyone possibly know that. 

Love Fant but he is going to be 30 before the start of the season.

Love Bechton but who knows what shape he’s in or where his head/heart is at. 

None of us know Ekwonu from a hole in the wall other that from what we’ve all discerned lately from all the draft gurus. Apparently the dude is a monster, is an incredible tackle but folks think he can kick inside for a bit (played T and G at NC State). “A+ physical traits with a high motor and a mean streak.” I like those guys. 

This.  Good job.  I'm certain Douglas likes those guys too.

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2 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

How would anyone possibly know that. 

Love Fant but he is going to be 30 before the start of the season.

Love Bechton but who knows what shape he’s in or where his head/heart is at. 

None of us know Ekwonu from a hole in the wall other that from what we’ve all discerned lately from all the draft gurus. Apparently the dude is a monster, is an incredible tackle but folks think he can kick inside for a bit (played T and G at NC State). “A+ physical traits with a high motor and a mean streak.” I like those guys. 

I don’t anticipate you to “know” like have a crystal ball. I’m just wondering as a fellow jet fan and presumably fan of drafts.

If he can’t win the job from the likes of those two guys, out of the gate, then I personally would reconsider the prospects of him moving to tackle later. 

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2 minutes ago, GangGreen Machine said:

I don’t anticipate you to “know” like have a crystal ball. I’m just wondering as a fellow jet fan and presumably fan of drafts.

If he can’t win the job from the likes of those two guys, out of the gate, then I personally would reconsider the prospects of him moving to tackle later. 

Neither of Fant nor Bechton is better suited to play Guard for a bit. 

I’d like to see all three playing at the same time, not Ekwonu supplanting one of them as a rookie. 

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2 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Neither of Fant nor Bechton is better suited to play Guard for a bit. 

I’d like to see all three playing at the same time, not Ekwonu supplanting one of them as a rookie. 

So guard at 4 then. If that happened I can live with it obviously if he is what’s been advertised. I do see a lot of other holes at premium positions. Given that, I see it as a punt but the line would be so epic if they all turned out. 

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4 minutes ago, GangGreen Machine said:

So guard at 4 then. If that happened I can live with it obviously if he is what’s been advertised. I do see a lot of other holes at premium positions. Given that, I see it as a punt but the line would be so epic if they all turned out. 

That’s the point. At 4 it’s either of the top 2 edge guys and if we can’t trade out we have to take a stud. Not a safety or CB and  no WR worthy there. 

Get a stud and build an impregnable line for Zach. 

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5 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

I’ve been pretty consistent. 

1.  I want one of the top 2 (not the next 3-4) edges at 4. 

2.  If they are gone, trade out. 

3. If we cannot trade out (which I don’t think will come to fruition), get me an absolute stud to build an impregnable line at a position that rarely busts. 

Of course we WANT to sign someone better than GVR but if our plan is to sigh FA “X” guard being punted by his team, the likelihood we get a plug and play stud concerns me. Maybe Duvernay is the guy, but maybe a year later he’s lost a step. 

I don’t want to take a defensive player any player at 4 because the top 2 options are gone, we can’t trade out and a guy at 35 might be as good or better than the 3-4 next “rated” edge players.

All just opinions mind you. 

Of course it's all just opinions. The bold is where you (and others) lose me most, and I think it's affecting the idea of requiring such a - imo preposterously - high pick just for a friggin' guard. 

There's a universe of difference between settling for GVR Part II and the need to burn the highest-ever guard pick in the history of the NFL, even for this "impregnable line" which doesn't happen with rookies playing new positions in the Jets' ozb blocking anyway.

AVT is probably no lesser of a guard prospect than anyone in this draft and, for all his talent and likely future excellence, in pass protection he was hardly "impregnable" as a rookie. The inconvenient truth is a talented - even if not AP1 level - veteran, experienced in this scheme, will make the line better than worrying about which prospect might beat 1:1 matchups on an OL that doesn't typically man-block in the first place. It's like drafting a FB at the top of round 2: yeah he may be really good - great even - but it's way overkill and in doing so they're robbing the roster of the player that'd more visibly lift the team more overall. 

I'd take the top edge on the Jets' board over any OL pick. I care not if he's technically the #1 or the #3 edge prospect this year, and once the draft is over no one will care in the future either.

Clelin Ferrell was the #2 edge prospect in 2019; there were 4 more 1st round edge prospects who ended up better (by a long shot), and those teams would've been foolish to pass up a top young edge rusher for a guard just because their slot was too low to grab one of the top 2 that year. The top iOL prospects to build impenetrable lines would've been  Chris Lindstrom and Garret Bradbury. Both were legit, serious 1st round talents, and they both suck. 

There are positions you just don't take that high except in extreme circumstances, like that being the very last hole to fill on a serious contender, which doesn't nearly apply to the Jets. A huge reason is a merely decent edge rusher has far more value to the team - and is still more difficult and more expensive to replace - than a merely decent #2 guard. You take one of these low-value positions up top, then nothing less than a 1st ballot HOF career - and hindsight knowledge of more valuable position prospects busting - is required to justify the pick. 

We agree on your first 2 points at least. :) 

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On 2/21/2022 at 12:07 PM, Claymation said:

Colts had no issue taking a guard at 6, the difference between Ikem and Nelson is that Ikem can also play Tackle at a high level. He may not be as good Nelson is at guard but he can play both positions which gives the Jets flexibility if he was to be the pick.

Yup, totally agree with this.  Flexibility is important.  It's the second most important thing, beyond talent, to scheme fit.  If Ikem is a really good fit for the MLF (Shanahan) wide/outside ZBS.... AND he can play both OG and OT, then sign me up!

Like it or not, whether he turns out to be good or not, our wagon is hitched to Zach Wilson for at least another year or two.  So build around him.  Let's keep adding one OL early (Round 1 or 2) and at least one WR/TE early (Round 1 or 2) every year.

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4 hours ago, greenwave81 said:

Not rocket science...

Becton  has been disappointing, and Fant is in his last year of his deal.

They'll draft an OT. If the stars align, and Becton returns/plays and improves and Fant returns to last years form, you play the new guy at LG for a year as insurance to step in for Becton if he disappoints, or for Fant if he prices himself out, or god forbid one of them gets injured again.

 

6 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

 

FWIW, if the Jets take OL at 4 it's obviously going to be a guy who projects as a OT long term even if he starts at RG as a rookie.

 

There's a lot of "Game Theory" going on here.  Several moving parts.

Part of me thinks that even though I believe OL is really, really important to football and a young QB these days it's also a tough ask to say we should devote a 1st round pick every single year (2020, 2021 +trading up, 2022) just to the OL.

At the same time, if we're not sold on Becton and there's a chance he's a goner by 2023 (or not granted the 5th year option) then that makes even more of a case for investing early in the Draft in OLine.

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7 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Yup, totally agree with this.  Flexibility is important.  It's the second most important thing, beyond talent, to scheme fit.  If Ikem is a really good fit for the MLF (Shanahan) wide/outside ZBS.... AND he can play both OG and OT, then sign me up!

Like it or not, whether he turns out to be good or not, our wagon is hitched to Zach Wilson for at least another year or two.  So build around him.  Let's keeping adding one OL early (Round 1 or 2) and at least one WR/TE early (Round 1 or 2) every year.

If Wilson does fail, not saying he will, but if he does, the Jets will have the infrastructure for the next QB. A quality line, Quality Wide Outs and hopefully a quality running attack.

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