Scathing and sad article in today's star ledger on Manfred and Baseball by Bob Klapisch

[section314]

Mods, please indulge this in this forum, Wanted to post here for it to get maximum visibility. I would encourage all baseball fans to read it. Klapisch nails it. 

[RoadFan]

Baseball is dying and has been for a while.  It is excruciatingly boring.   
 

Millennials and Gen Z have zero interest outside of a handful of cities like Boston, Chicago, St. Louis…

I am Gen X and I can’t name more than 3 players in MLB.  I am dead serious, btw.  
 

 

[slats]

27 minutes ago, section314 said:

Mods, please indulge this in this forum, Wanted to post here for it to get maximum visibility. I would encourage all baseball fans to read it. Klapisch nails it. 

Uh, maybe post the article then? I’ll leave it here for a day but…

18 minutes ago, RoadFan said:

Baseball is dying and has been for a while.  It is excruciatingly boring.   
 

Millennials and Gen Z have zero interest outside of a handful of cities like Boston, Chicago, St. Louis…

I am Gen X and I can’t name more than 3 players in MLB.  I am dead serious, btw.  
 

 

Like @RoadFan, I don’t think I could name a single MLB player. There are teams now that I’ve never heard of, it’s been so long. 

[Trotter]

26 minutes ago, RoadFan said:

Baseball is dying and has been for a while.  It is excruciatingly boring.   
 

Millennials and Gen Z have zero interest outside of a handful of cities like Boston, Chicago, St. Louis…

I am Gen X and I can’t name more than 3 players in MLB.  I am dead serious, btw.  
 

 

Baseball (owners and players) continue to just do stupid things but in the end it does not seem to matter from a financial standpoint.

Owners continue to make money, franchise value increases as do player salaries.

This is the 4th stoppage I can remember and while I grew up a die hard baseball fan, simply lost interest around the 90's or so with whatever strike that was.

I agree with you it is dying and the interest just does not seem to be there - yet the money continues to increase and the fans always seem to come back

Very strange. 

 

[Larz]

Haven’t cared about baseball in like 15 years 

[jbt]

Baseball needs to make some drastic changes to make it more entertaining to watch.  it will upset the older fans but they wont be around forever.

 

[Kolchak]

This is easily the least entertaining thread on the forum.  Mods need to speed up the posting somehow.

[nycdan]

1 minute ago, jbt said:

Baseball needs to make some drastic changes to make it more entertaining to watch.  it will upset the older fans but they wont be around forever.

 

I guess we'll need a 'Roughing the Pitcher' rule?  Honestly, I don't know what they can do.  The game itself is mostly fine although not for everyone.  The problem to me is everything else but the game.  The drama, the stoppages, the PED suspensions, the constant flow of news about misbehaving players and coaches.  Now the chest-beating over whether paying a guy $30M instead of $35M is unfair and whether that comes out of owners pockets or other players, all while fan costs have exploded, is fun.  Baseball used to be all about the actual games, and its imperfect heroes who we loved anyway.  Now I'm not sure what it's about.

Then there's the never-ending string of injuries to pitchers.  It seems the game has evolved to a point where pitchers almost have to destroy their arms in order to compete.  So you pay a guy $30M/year and he pitches 15 games for you.  Good work if you can get it.  Horrible experience for fans who dare to get excited about a young arm.  Probably the greatest threat to the game that nobody seems to want to talk about.

Honestly, I always hope the Mets will be good, but I am pretty sure I haven't watched an entire 9-inning game in 20 years.  An inning here or there completely sates my appetite.

[nycdan]

Just now, Kolchak said:

This is easily the least entertaining thread on the forum.  Mods need to speed up the posting somehow.

We won't do anything until we get our new CBA signed.  @Maxman locked us out of the mod panel.

[JoJoTownsell1]

My kids rather go to the dentist than go to a baseball game. 

[Trotter]

2 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

My kids rather go to the dentist than go to a baseball game. 

And this is the part that makes no sense. 

I think a lot of kids and younger adults fall into that category and no one can blame them.

I honestly think if the yankees offered me free legend tickets to a game - I would decline and rather go to a steakhouse on my own and pay for a nice dinner.

What baffles me is if the younger generations have no interest - what is driving the major networks to pay MLB tens of millions of dollars for broadcast rights?

Who is watching this?

[section314]

38 minutes ago, slats said:

Uh, maybe post the article then? I’ll leave it here for a day but…

Like @RoadFan, I don’t think I could name a single MLB player. There are teams now that I’ve never heard of, it’s been so long. 

Will try my best.....technologically impaired. Thanks for the patirnce.

[CSNY]

Used to love baseball. My dad took me all the time went to the first ever Mets home game at the Polo Grounds , saw Jim Bunnings Father’s Day perfect game and Seavers almost perfect game ( dam you Jimmy Qualls) Now the game has become quite boring and has been taken over by sheer unadulterated greed. But what really disturbs me about the game is that the stewards of the game ( owners and players alike ) really don’t care about the game so many of us enjoyed playing and watching growing up. I read that part of the negotiations on a new CBA concerns the elimination of the shift which is baffling if you don’t like the shift adjust your way of hitting. In the immortal words of  Yogi “ hit ‘em where they ain’t”. Instead of arguing about a dam shift negotiate areas of major concern to get the players back on the field 

Just This minute area of discussion really pisses me off and the elimination of a Saturday afternoon game where Dads can bring the sons and daughters to watch in person ( after they save up the money for a baseball game) tells me that they really don’t give a dam about baseball or us the fans at all. I can’t say I will Never attend a game in person since I hope to be blessed with grandchildren some day bring them to the ballpark and be able to tell them stories about the good old days of baseball but as of now and past 5 years Will only watch on TV when I have insomnia as it is better than ambian 

[Trotter]

20 minutes ago, CSNY said:

Used to love baseball. My dad took me all the time went to the first ever Mets home game at the Polo Grounds , saw Jim Bunnings Father’s Day perfect game and Seavers almost perfect game ( dam you Jimmy Qualls) Now the game has become quite boring and has been taken over by sheer unadulterated greed. But what really disturbs me about the game is that the stewards of the game ( owners and players alike ) really don’t care about the game so many of us enjoyed playing and watching growing up. I read that part of the negotiations on a new CBA concerns the elimination of the shift which is baffling if you don’t like the shift adjust your way of hitting. In the immortal words of  Yogi “ hit ‘em where they ain’t”. Instead of arguing about a dam shift negotiate areas of major concern to get the players back on the field 

Just This minute area of discussion really pisses me off and the elimination of a Saturday afternoon game where Dads can bring the sons and daughters to watch in person ( after they save up the money for a baseball game) tells me that they really don’t give a dam about baseball or us the fans at all. I can’t say I will Never attend a game in person since I hope to be blessed with grandchildren some day bring them to the ballpark and be able to tell them stories about the good old days of baseball but as of now and past 5 years Will only watch on TV when I have insomnia as it is better than ambian 

I'm with you on the grandkids part but maybe that is where the minor league stadiums come into play. When my kids were little they loved going to Jackals games. It was the baseball experience that used to occur - reasonable paced game which at least kept their attention for a little while.

They are both grown now and I know if I offered my son $500 to go to a baseball game - he would decline. Just no interest in what the major leagues offer   

[shawn306]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

I guess we'll need a 'Roughing the Pitcher' rule?  Honestly, I don't know what they can do.  The game itself is mostly fine although not for everyone.  The problem to me is everything else but the game.  The drama, the stoppages, the PED suspensions, the constant flow of news about misbehaving players and coaches.  Now the chest-beating over whether paying a guy $30M instead of $35M is unfair and whether that comes out of owners pockets or other players, all while fan costs have exploded, is fun.  Baseball used to be all about the actual games, and its imperfect heroes who we loved anyway.  Now I'm not sure what it's about.

Then there's the never-ending string of injuries to pitchers.  It seems the game has evolved to a point where pitchers almost have to destroy their arms in order to compete.  So you pay a guy $30M/year and he pitches 15 games for you.  Good work if you can get it.  Horrible experience for fans who dare to get excited about a young arm.  Probably the greatest threat to the game that nobody seems to want to talk about.

Honestly, I always hope the Mets will be good, but I am pretty sure I haven't watched an entire 9-inning game in 20 years.  An inning here or there completely sates my appetite.

Baseball needs to get back to its roots. The reason baseball is so boring right now 

1) The amount of time between pitches. Pitchers walking off the mound, guys stepping out of the batters box, adjusting gloves, helmets, jock straps, you can't be going seconds between pitches. The pitch clock has been in the minor leagues for a couple of years now so a decent amount of these guys are used to it already.

2) Strikeout/HR/Walk - pretty much now what you see in baseball. Blame on it on Analytics, blame it on the thinking of pulling everything, exit veloclity, Launch angle, whatever. The thinking in baseball has to change that it is ok to go and steal a base, lay down a bunt. play hit and run. hit the ball where they a'int as Wee Willie Keeler used to say. Pitchers now are throwing as hard as they can instead for as long as they can instead of really pitching. Hitting corners, up in the strike zone, down, in, out. Another big reason why so many pitchers are getting hurt and missing years because of Tommy John Surgery. 

3) Let the managers manage - Please I am tired of the managers basically being puppets for the Front office putting out the lineups that their analytics department thinks is the best lineup. Can you imagine a Billy Martin, Earl Weaver, Sparky Anderson having to sit in a meeting with some analytic folks while they tell them what lineup he should be put out there ? 

4) I know this won't happen because of money but go back to limiting playoff teams to the three division winners in each league and one wild card. There are too many teams in the post season. 

5) Institute a "Salary Floor". Make teams like the Marlins, Royals, Rays, spend some money instead of pocketing all the cash from the richer teams. If you can't afford 120 million as a minimum Salary floor then those owners should not be owning a MLB team.

Just get back to the basics. I saw a thing on MLB network this morning stating that the average time of a MLB game in 1981 was like 2 hours and 30 minutes. Now it is around 3 hours and 15 minutes. Wayyyyy too long

[RVAJet815]

2 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

My kids rather go to the dentist than go to a baseball game. 

Wow, that's surprising. My 10 and 13 year olds love it. Play the video game (had the Show for a few years in a row), inhale MLB content, begged me to head back up to Queens to see the mets. Of course, I finally settle on heading back up and the game in May is probably getting cancelled . I guess it's what you're used to or raised on. A Ball game is always on in our house in the summer. I guess that's the difference?

[section314]

@slats Thanks for your patience with me on this one. Turns out, this is an article that can't be shared. Will give a cliff notes version, and then if you need to move to Baseball forum, totally agree. Again thanks. 

1) Manfred Is the worst ever Commissioner. He doesn't understand why people once loved baseball .He refers to him as an out of touch Ivy League lawyer. Manferd sits atop "Baseball Inc." and rules as a bloodless oligarch.

2)Manfred works in concert with 7-8 small market "hawks", hardliners who tank, refuse to spend and don't care that it's the players who bring the life to baseball. Manfred's goal is to finish off the union in these talks. Will just wait the players out.

3) Attendance in steady decline since 2015, WS ratings 2nd lowest ever, games longer and more boring.

[Kolchak]

16 minutes ago, shawn306 said:

3) Let the managers manage - Please I am tired of the managers basically being puppets for the Front office putting out the lineups that their analytics department thinks is the best lineup. Can you imagine a Billy Martin, Earl Weaver, Sparky Anderson having to sit in a meeting with some analytic folks while they tell them what lineup he should be put out there ? 

4

 

I'm not one for reality TV, but sign me up to watch that.  Especially Earl Weaver. 

[Bronx]

2 hours ago, jbt said:

Baseball needs to make some drastic changes to make it more entertaining to watch.  it will upset the older fans but they wont be around forever.

 

7 innings; 3 balls, 2 strikes. 

[JetsFanatic]

This isn't all on Manfred, the MLBPA sucks also. They whine and complain about everything. I thought the last offer by the owners was OK.

[David Harris]

The last strike made me sour on baseball forever, think I was in HS or college.  

It's right next to cricket for boredom.

I hate soccer but I'd maybe rather watch a 0-0 soccer game than watch baseball.  I'll half tune in for a Yankees/Mets playoff game. 

[Trotter]

10 minutes ago, RVAJet815 said:

Wow, that's surprising. My 10 and 13 year olds love it. Play the video game (had the Show for a few years in a row), inhale MLB content, begged me to head back up to Queens to see the mets. Of course, I finally settle on heading back up and the game in May is probably getting cancelled . I guess it's what you're used to or raised on. A Ball game is always on in our house in the summer. I guess that's the difference?

It would be really interesting to more responses on this.

I wonder if baseball is popular in the middle/high schools or has the interest fallen off as we were hearing for the past 5-10 years.

My son is grown now but loved baseball as a kid - did it all from teeball thru little league - fall ball etc.

You could not get him to a major league game now matter what you offered.

Really curious on other perspecitves. 

[chirorob]

45 minutes ago, Trotter said:

I'm with you on the grandkids part but maybe that is where the minor league stadiums come into play. When my kids were little they loved going to Jackals games. It was the baseball experience that used to occur - reasonable paced game which at least kept their attention for a little while.

They are both grown now and I know if I offered my son $500 to go to a baseball game - he would decline. Just no interest in what the major leagues offer   

They also killed off half the minor league teams last year, freaking moronic.

[jbt]

2 hours ago, nycdan said:

I guess we'll need a 'Roughing the Pitcher' rule?  Honestly, I don't know what they can do.  The game itself is mostly fine although not for everyone.  The problem to me is everything else but the game.  The drama, the stoppages, the PED suspensions, the constant flow of news about misbehaving players and coaches.  Now the chest-beating over whether paying a guy $30M instead of $35M is unfair and whether that comes out of owners pockets or other players, all while fan costs have exploded, is fun.  Baseball used to be all about the actual games, and its imperfect heroes who we loved anyway.  Now I'm not sure what it's about.

Then there's the never-ending string of injuries to pitchers.  It seems the game has evolved to a point where pitchers almost have to destroy their arms in order to compete.  So you pay a guy $30M/year and he pitches 15 games for you.  Good work if you can get it.  Horrible experience for fans who dare to get excited about a young arm.  Probably the greatest threat to the game that nobody seems to want to talk about.

Honestly, I always hope the Mets will be good, but I am pretty sure I haven't watched an entire 9-inning game in 20 years.  An inning here or there completely sates my appetite.

outlaw the shift to some extent

one of the main problems is the best players only get around 4 at bats a game and in the 9th inning when the game is on the line they could be on the bench.  other sports the greats have the ball in their hand in crunch time all or most of the time

[chirorob]

2 minutes ago, jbt said:

outlaw the shift to some extent

one of the main problems is the best players only get around 4 at bats a game and in the 9th inning when the game is on the line they could be on the bench.  other sports the greats have the ball in their hand in crunch time all or most of the time

Have to do something.

Infielders must be on the dirt, not on the out field grass.   2nd baseman must be to the right of 2nd base, SS must be to the left of 2nd base.

[section314]

4 minutes ago, Trotter said:

It would be really interesting to more responses on this.

I wonder if baseball is popular in the middle/high schools or has the interest fallen off as we were hearing for the past 5-10 years.

My son is grown now but loved baseball as a kid - did it all from teeball thru little league - fall ball etc.

You could not get him to a major league game now matter what you offered.

Really curious on other perspecitves. 

I am 64 and played baseball pretty much from the time I could walk. Was in organized from 9 LL through college. I still love baseball, it's MLB I can't stand. I think so many feel this way too. I would much rather watch my grandsons play Little League than watch today's major league snoozefest.

[Trotter]

5 minutes ago, chirorob said:

They also killed off half the minor league teams last year, freaking moronic.

Did not realize that.

It is almost as if they got in a room and said let's try and kill off a billion dollar industry by making it so boring and taking away any type of enjoyment and basically bankrupt it. then they all laugh knowing no matter what they do - they will continue to make millions (players and owners) and the sheep fans whatever is left of them will just absorb the higher cost.

 

Can't do it forever.  

[CSNY]

35 minutes ago, jbt said:

outlaw the shift to some extent

 

Totally disagree. You are a Major League Baseball played you should be able to hit the ball against the shift. Change the mindset of having to hit a 500 foot 5 run homer every dam at bat.
when you go out there with the mindset of swinging from your heels you strike out more often than not which is a predetermined fate 
Hit the ball run hard to first cause you never know if there will be an error and walla your on base instead of carrying your bat to the dugout 

[BigRy56]

I’m surprised anybody cares. I don’t know a single person that actually cares about the state of baseball. It’s a cheap excuse to get $10 tickets and get smashed at the ballpark. It’s a dead sport IMO… sad but true - and it’s been a long time coming

[Anthony Jet]

Little league baseball is still huge in Staten Island, as I’m sure other outer boroughs and suburbs of NYC. 
 

just like football they are tinkering too much. Too much data and what they think fans want to see. 
 

Part of the regular season baseball allure, is being outside on a summer night with beer, kids, a date or whatever it is you like. The stay away or stay at home culture will not enjoy regular season baseball as much and in turn have less fans. 

[section314]

1 minute ago, Anthony Jet said:

Little league baseball is still huge in Staten Island, as I’m sure other outer boroughs and suburbs of NYC. 
 

just like football they are tinkering too much. Too much data and what they think fans want to see. 
 

Part of the regular season baseball allure, is being outside on a summer night with beer, kids, a date or whatever it is you like. The stay away or stay at home culture will not enjoy regular season baseball as much and in turn have less fans. 

Very well said. 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, shawn306 said:

Baseball needs to get back to its roots. The reason baseball is so boring right now 

1) The amount of time between pitches. Pitchers walking off the mound, guys stepping out of the batters box, adjusting gloves, helmets, jock straps, you can't be going seconds between pitches. The pitch clock has been in the minor leagues for a couple of years now so a decent amount of these guys are used to it already.

2) Strikeout/HR/Walk - pretty much now what you see in baseball. Blame on it on Analytics, blame it on the thinking of pulling everything, exit veloclity, Launch angle, whatever. The thinking in baseball has to change that it is ok to go and steal a base, lay down a bunt. play hit and run. hit the ball where they a'int as Wee Willie Keeler used to say. Pitchers now are throwing as hard as they can instead for as long as they can instead of really pitching. Hitting corners, up in the strike zone, down, in, out. Another big reason why so many pitchers are getting hurt and missing years because of Tommy John Surgery. 

3) Let the managers manage - Please I am tired of the managers basically being puppets for the Front office putting out the lineups that their analytics department thinks is the best lineup. Can you imagine a Billy Martin, Earl Weaver, Sparky Anderson having to sit in a meeting with some analytic folks while they tell them what lineup he should be put out there ? 

4) I know this won't happen because of money but go back to limiting playoff teams to the three division winners in each league and one wild card. There are too many teams in the post season. 

5) Institute a "Salary Floor". Make teams like the Marlins, Royals, Rays, spend some money instead of pocketing all the cash from the richer teams. If you can't afford 120 million as a minimum Salary floor then those owners should not be owning a MLB team.

Just get back to the basics. I saw a thing on MLB network this morning stating that the average time of a MLB game in 1981 was like 2 hours and 30 minutes. Now it is around 3 hours and 15 minutes. Wayyyyy too long

Good post.

I love Baseball.  My first and best and most passionate sports love.  The sport I played, and once dreamed of playing as a pro (lol as it turns out).

But it's an old man's sport, a exceedingly slow sport, a mismanaged sport, an effectively salary cap-less sport utterly lacking in competitive balance, and a sport that seems to want to do it's utmost to ruin itself once and for all.

I agree almost all down the line with you list, and would add a few of my own as well.

But it's a lost cause.  Sadly.  MLB already is what, the 3rd most popular sport in the US behind the NFL and NBA/College Basketball?

It'll keep dropping if it isn't careful, to the depth of things like Boxing and Horseracing and Billiards and Bowling, and some day we'll have to watch it on the Ocho and read about it in Obscure Sports Quarterly if they keep trying to kill it off with mismanagement.

[Wit]

I personally love baseball and my son only follows baseball and he’s 12. Unfortunately we follow different teams, but if baseball was smart they would figure out how to change the game to make it shorter and more engaging for young fans. 

[BeaconJet]

1 hour ago, section314 said:

@slats Thanks for your patience with me on this one. Turns out, this is an article that can't be shared. Will give a cliff notes version, and then if you need to move to Baseball forum, totally agree. Again thanks. 

1) Manfred Is the worst ever Commissioner. He doesn't understand why people once loved baseball .He refers to him as an out of touch Ivy League lawyer. Manferd sits atop "Baseball Inc." and rules as a bloodless oligarch.

2)Manfred works in concert with 7-8 small market "hawks", hardliners who tank, refuse to spend and don't care that it's the players who bring the life to baseball. Manfred's goal is to finish off the union in these talks. Will just wait the players out.

3) Attendance in steady decline since 2015, WS ratings 2nd lowest ever, games longer and more boring.

#2 is huge.  The media says "the owners" are to blame, but its not all the owners. Its not Cohen or the Steinbrenners, its not the Red Sox, Mariners (who just gave Robbie Ray $115 million), Rangers ($500 million on their new middle infield), Tigers, etc.  Its the assholes who just want to be borderline competitive, get revenue sharing money and not pay out salaries. They can cancel all of April and still make money, so those 7-8 owners will hold things hostage until then.  League Avg payroll in 2021 was $132 million.  Teams like the Marlins and the Pirates, Cleveland, and Baltimore all have payrolls under $60 million.  Somehow Cleveland was just shy of .500 with a tiny payroll, but the others just tank. 

[Lith]

3 minutes ago, Anthony Jet said:

Part of the regular season baseball allure, is being outside on a summer night with beer, kids, a date or whatever it is you like. The stay away or stay at home culture will not enjoy regular season baseball as much and in turn have less fans. 

Agreed.  I have two adult kids.  Both enjoy going to ball games with me.  Nothing better than spending a few hours with either my son or daughter, on a summer evening, watching a ball game and chatting.  Maybe about the game, maybe about life, maybe just chatting about nothing.  I look forward to a few of those visits to the ballpark every year. 

And MLB, and the players are not going to ruin those days for me, no matter how this turns out.