Sauce Gardner

[Green Ghost]

I want to see the Jets walk away with at least one of either Gardiner or Hamilton. Unlike most of you, I’d be okay with both.

IMO they’re the two best players in the draft.

[LAD_Brooklyn]

44 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

A DB at 4 does not help this team win games next year.

 

[Green Ghost]

6 minutes ago, LAD_Brooklyn said:

 

We’re not winning more than 7 games next year no matter who we take at #4.

We need to keep getting good players right now, it’s not about contending in ‘22. That isn’t happening.

[kdels62]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

A DB at 4 does not help this team win games next year.

Lolz… the defense lost games giving up 3rd and 20s on the regular. A DB definitely helps.

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

As you alluded to, he’s a victim of rampant mismanagement, but he’s also a poor culture fit, abd has terrible instincts for the position. Way too much to overcome for him here and, if he people are smart, they‘ll get him to San Fran or Houston before NY eats him alive. 

This simply couldn't be more inaccurate.  The schtick is getting old.

[Barry McCockinner]

It's wild how many guys could realistically be the pick at #4. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

[K_O_Brien]

1 minute ago, Barry McCockinner said:

It's wild how many guys could realistically be the pick at #4. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

I make it eight guys?  Ekwonu, Neal, Penning, Thibodeaux, Johnson II, Walker, Hamilton and Gardner. And yeah, no clue if that is a a good or a bad thing, likely the latter. 

As Kiper (who I don't like, but still) said the other week, the Jets and Giants need to start looking at their two top ten picks as a combo-package. In the Jets case, your decison at 4 will be influenced by who you think will still be available at 10. You might prefer Thibodeaux over Gardner in a vacuum, but if your good with one of Johnson II, Walker (or Ojabo, Karlaftis) being there at 10, then taking Gardner makes more sense. 

[bla bla bla]

2 hours ago, derp said:

I think when the best players are also your hardest workers, good people, it's great for team culture. Just makes the picks safer. Swing for a double and see if it goes over the fence kind of stuff. 

This is so critically important. Players look up to the alpha dog, if the alpha dog/boss is a clown or headache it gives the green light to rest of team to do the same.

[Tranquilo]

6 minutes ago, K_O_Brien said:

I make it eight guys?  Ekwonu, Neal, Penning, Thibodeaux, Johnson II, Walker, Hamilton and Gardner. And yeah, no clue if that is a a good or a bad thing, likely the latter. 

As Kiper (who I don't like, but still) said the other week, the Jets and Giants need to start looking at their two top ten picks as a combo-package. In the Jets case, your decison at 4 will be influenced by who you think will still be available at 10. You might prefer Thibodeaux over Gardner in a vacuum, but if your good with one of Johnson II, Walker (or Ojabo, Karlaftis) being there at 10, then taking Gardner makes more sense. 

Yeah, I think right now, if the Jets like those edge rushers, and Gardner raising his stock at the combine, it’s looking like the best bet would be to go with Gardner at 4 and the edge rusher at 10. Then we can draft offense for the next few rounds. 

[bla bla bla]

8 minutes ago, K_O_Brien said:

I make it eight guys?  Ekwonu, Neal, Penning, Thibodeaux, Johnson II, Walker, Hamilton and Gardner. And yeah, no clue if that is a a good or a bad thing, likely the latter. 

As Kiper (who I don't like, but still) said the other week, the Jets and Giants need to start looking at their two top ten picks as a combo-package. In the Jets case, your decison at 4 will be influenced by who you think will still be available at 10. You might prefer Thibodeaux over Gardner in a vacuum, but if your good with one of Johnson II, Walker (or Ojabo, Karlaftis) being there at 10, then taking Gardner makes more sense. 

Blewett and I were discussing the same thing. We want Sauce at 10 but we like more of the Edge Rushers that we Trust to be there at 10. Pick Sauce at 4 and then take whoever falls to 10 between Walker, Johnson, Karlaftis and Ojabo

[RedBeardedSavage]

18 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Blewett and I were discussing the same thing. We want Sauce at 10 but we like more of the Edge Rushers that we Trust to be there at 10. Pick Sauce at 4 and then take whoever falls to 10 between Walker, Johnson, Karlaftis and Ojabo

Reasonable people can disagree about things - I do not favor the Sauce pick @ 4, and of course I'm partial to Jermaine or Travon @ 4.

I understand the Ojabo love - he is a freak athlete and checks nearly every box (doesn't have 34" arms, but 33+ is good enough). I get nervous about how raw he is, and how when I watched that Michigan/Georgia game he was largely not on the field for most of the defensive snaps - I don't think they trusted him against the run. 

But what I don't understand is the Karlaftis love:

The arm length, the mystery of his 40/10 yd split.

These things concern me. 

I feel like we should be looking for 250+ lbs DE's with 34" arms and 1.6ish 10 yd splits. Those are the metrics that seemingly give the most success at the next level.

[Matt39]

1 hour ago, Green Ghost said:

We’re not winning more than 7 games next year no matter who we take at #4.

We need to keep getting good players right now, it’s not about contending in ‘22. That isn’t happening.

If it’s not about contending then Douglas should be gone tomorrow.

[Matt39]

45 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Lolz… the defense lost games giving up 3rd and 20s on the regular. A DB definitely helps.

Every defense gives up plays. The Jets can’t get first downs. 

[bla bla bla]

7 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Reasonable people can disagree about things - I do not favor the Sauce pick @ 4, and of course I'm partial to Jermaine or Travon @ 4.

I understand the Ojabo love - he is a freak athlete and checks nearly every box (does have 34" arms, but 33+ is good enough). I get nervous about how raw he is, and how when I watched that Michigan/Georgia game he was largely not on the field for most of the defensive snaps - I don't think they trusted him against the run. 

But what I don't understand is the Karlaftis love:

The arm length, the mystery of his 40/10 yd split.

These things concern me. 

I feel like we should be looking for 250+ lbs DE's with 34" arms and 1.6ish 10 yd splits. Those are the metrics that seemingly give the most success at the next level.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with whoever our top edge at 4 is even if that's passing on Kayvon for a different one. I really like Johnson and Walker more than Karlaftis and Ojabo.

I like Ojabo for his strip sack game, I'm big on turnovers. Karlaftis feels like more of a bull rush edge setter than the bendy type of edge I'd prefer.

[CanadienJetsFan]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I think what we have to accept, and Saleh already knows, is that Zach Wilson is terrible. To elide this problem, Saleh’s best and only chance to not end his own career is to hide Wilson behind a big defense and a superhuman running game. Giving Zach Wilson a high-value receiver is like giving an infant an AK-47. Draft CB, OLB. and Kenneth Walker. Run the ball 40 times a game. Hope for the best. Zach sucks.

You never disappoint!

[bla bla bla]

7 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Every defense gives up plays. The Jets can’t get first downs. 

Depends why you think the Jets couldn't get first downs. Was it OL, TE, WR, injuries, QB?

Could be all of them to some degree or another. If you come out of FA with Bozeman, Tomlinson, Njoku, and Cooper then I see no reason why you can't attack CB and Edge early while snagging Watson and McBride in the 2nd to help get 1st downs.

 

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with whoever our top edge at 4 is even if that's passing on Kayvon for a different one. I really like Johnson and Walker more than Karlaftis and Ojabo.

I like Ojabo for his strip sack game, I'm big on turnovers. Karlaftis feels like more of a bull rush edge setter than the bendy type of edge I'd prefer.

Agree on most everything but I'm out on KT & Karlaftis. Even Hutch I worry about that arm length, but his other metrics were great. 

This the argument, at least for me, for going edge @ 4. Either Travon or Jermaine should be there. If we wait until 10, I think both will be gone. 

But we'll see.

[derp]

23 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Reasonable people can disagree about things - I do not favor the Sauce pick @ 4, and of course I'm partial to Jermaine or Travon @ 4.

I understand the Ojabo love - he is a freak athlete and checks nearly every box (doesn't have 34" arms, but 33+ is good enough). I get nervous about how raw he is, and how when I watched that Michigan/Georgia game he was largely not on the field for most of the defensive snaps - I don't think they trusted him against the run. 

But what I don't understand is the Karlaftis love:

The arm length, the mystery of his 40/10 yd split.

These things concern me. 

I feel like we should be looking for 250+ lbs DE's with 34" arms and 1.6ish 10 yd splits. Those are the metrics that seemingly give the most success at the next level.

It kind of depends what the Jets want to do with JFM. If they like JFM-Lawson as the edges right now, who cares about Ojabo’s run defense? Kick JFM inside on passing downs and get Ojabo on the field to get after the QB as he develops against the run.

They like JFM inside like SF did better with Armstead inside, Walker’s big and long enough to play that strongside end spot but still athletic. And we know he’s more developed and good against the run.

I’m partial to Walker personally - seems like a solid dude, playing inside is good for developing hand usage, and he’s a freak athlete. I think they could move him all over. But they’re set up to develop a guy who’s raw as a run defender too.

[Beerfish]

I can see right now on draft day at #4 we are going to have a lot of unhappy people one way or the other.

[The Crusher]

4 hours ago, chirorob said:

Id rather him than a safety.

I’d rather they start doing meth and start gobbling dick  for caps rather than a safety, 

[RedBeardedSavage]

10 minutes ago, derp said:

It kind of depends what the Jets want to do with JFM. If they like JFM-Lawson as the edges right now, who cares about Ojabo’s run defense? Kick JFM inside on passing downs and get Ojabo on the field to get after the QB as he develops against the run.

They like JFM inside like SF did better with Armstead inside, Walker’s big and long enough to play that strongside end spot but still athletic. And we know he’s more developed and good against the run.

I’m partial to Walker personally - seems like a solid dude, playing inside is good for developing hand usage, and he’s a freak athlete. I think they could move him all over. But they’re set up to develop a guy who’s raw as a run defender too.

Fair points and certainly something to keep in mind. 

But when I'm drafting in the top 10, I think about complete players, no?

I agree about Walker. He can play multiple positions and every down.

I think Jermaine is exclusively an edge, but played really well against the run.

Ojabo is the "?", and I'm comfortable taking that risk @ 10, but why risk that when I likely already have the opportunity to pick a complete player @ 4 @ at the same position?

[Green Ghost]

23 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

If it’s not about contending then Douglas should be gone tomorrow.

Trust me, I’m not exactly ecstatic about him, or how he’s gone about this “rebuild” so many others have bought into. That’s why I don’t think this team will contend next year.
Whether he should be fired if we don’t is a conversation we can have next year. (I can tell you I’ve had enough of these 2&4 win seasons from him, I’ll tell you that)

[xJayce]

1 hour ago, Barry McCockinner said:

It's wild how many guys could realistically be the pick at #4. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

I'd guess it's a product of having as many holes to fill in the roster and not having a class that is as strong at the top as some other years. 

If the roster was stronger, but was missing 1-2 pieces, and by some fluke we ended up with the 4th, I don't know that there would be as much variation in possible outcomes. You'd be looking at 2-3 players that make sense, regardless of positional value (ie - if we're set at premium positions, hell yeah, take BPA (even if it's a safety) at 4).

[derp]

1 minute ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Fair points and certainly something to keep in mind. 

But when I'm drafting in the top 10, I think about complete players, no?

I agree about Walker. He can play multiple positions and every down.

I think Jermaine is exclusively an edge, but played really against the run.

Ojabo is the "?", and I'm comfortable taking that risk @ 10, but why risk that when I likely already have the opportunity to pick a complete player @ 4 @ at the same position?

Yeah, I don’t think Ojabo is in play at 4. Maybe ten. I do think there’s a distinction between guys who are raw but have the necessary traits to be complete players and guys who won’t get there.

Guys like Nik Bonitto and Myjai Sanders are too small to play against the run. Ojabo has barely played football, he just needs to learn how to play run defense but has the tools to do it. And the way the Jets’ roster is set up, he can learn it while doing something you know he’s effective at. Plus, what you think you know he’s good at (pass rush) is more important anyway. In that way he’s arguably safer than Walker who you’re hoping gets there as a pass rusher, but again I like Walker’s profile.

It worries me a little that it took Johnson until he was almost 23 (he’ll turn 24 his rookie year) to break out to the degree he did. What would Ojabo, Walker, Thibodeaux look like with two more years of physical and technical development? Not out on him completely, and maybe the stacked Georgia defense explains it like it did for Walker, but he’s not an apples to apples comparison to these younger kids development wise.

[Saul Goodman]

I think Stingley Jr has the better career but too risky for the Jets. Gardner would be a fine pick, assuming we add significant talent in free agency prior to then. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

2 minutes ago, derp said:

Yeah, I don’t think Ojabo is in play at 4. Maybe ten. I do think there’s a distinction between guys who are raw but have the necessary traits to be complete players and guys who won’t get there.

Guys like Nik Bonitto and Myjai Sanders are too small to play against the run. Ojabo has barely played football, he just needs to learn how to play run defense but has the tools to do it. And the way the Jets’ roster is set up, he can learn it while doing something you know he’s effective at. Plus, what you think you know he’s good at (pass rush) is more important anyway. In that way he’s arguably safer than Walker who you’re hoping gets there as a pass rusher, but again I like Walker’s profile.

It worries me a little that it took Johnson until he was almost 23 (he’ll turn 24 his rookie year) to break out to the degree he did. What would Ojabo, Walker, Thibodeaux look like with two more years of physical and technical development? Not out on him completely, and maybe the stacked Georgia defense explains it like it did for Walker, but he’s not an apples to apples comparison to these younger kids development wise.

I respect the breakout age argument. It's not insignificant. I think it's a fair knock on JJ II.

I just feel like the three most important things are 10 yd split, arm length and size/weight. Obviously production matters, but we're talking about physical toolset here.

Ojabo and KT are close, but Walker and JJ II check all of those boxes. All of them, post combine, meet the athleticism threshold.

Ojabo is the rawest. KT played the easiest competition, and also has character concerns.

If it's between Walker and JJ II? It's pick your poison to me. If you want more flexibility, sure, Walker makes sense. He's also younger. JJ II dominated last year and dominated the senior bowl week. I think he's the more natural pass rusher of the two. 

Either way, I'm happy with either Walker or Jermaine, with a preference for JJ II. I'm OK with Ojabo @ 10, but I'm a little nervous. I'm completely out on KT because of effort/football character. 

JJ II has 34.5" arms, a sub 1.6 10 yd split and is 6'4+ 255 lbs. I think this dude is going to produce consistent pressure day 1 in the NFL. 

"Vontae Mack no matter what"

[Gastineau Lives]

3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I think it was Sar that loved leinart was it not?

I don't know, but I KNOW this mfer loved Josh Rosen

[Jimmy 2 Times]

8 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

I don't know, but I KNOW this mfer loved Josh Rosen

That’s right!

The A&M/UCLA game sold him on Rosen. 

[Bowles Movement]

4 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I think what we have to accept, and Saleh already knows, is that Zach Wilson is terrible. To elide this problem, Saleh’s best and only chance to not end his own career is to hide Wilson behind a big defense and a superhuman running game. Giving Zach Wilson a high-value receiver is like giving an infant an AK-47. Draft CB, OLB. and Kenneth Walker. Run the ball 40 times a game. Hope for the best. Zach sucks.

With all the trolling you do, I’m surprised you haven’t been a guest of Crusher in the gallows.

[Dcat]

5 hours ago, JTJet said:

If we go double defense in the 1st round I will gouge out my eyes. 

My same gut reaction.  But that is before the brain wheels start turning.

This f'kin' team has me trained like pavlov's dog to puke when they take defense first.

But the draft board is what it is and I want this team to improve as much as humanly possible. Sauce & JJ? There's a chance I can get used to something like that. My stomach is a little upset at the moment.

[PLO]

14 minutes ago, Dcat said:

If they go double D I'll vomit right there on the spot.  

Get the bucket ready, surround it with sawdust just in case. 

[Dcat]

6 minutes ago, PLO said:

Get the bucket ready, surround it with sawdust just in case. 

My same gut reaction.  But that is before the brain wheels start turning.

This f'kin' team has me trained like pavlov's dog to puke when they take defense first.

But the draft board is what it is and I want this team to improve as much as humanly possible. Sauce & JJ? There's a chance I can get used to something like that. But honestly, my stomach is a little upset at the moment.

[Jimmy 2 Times]

Expect D with 3 of the first 4. 

[Rhg1084]

7 minutes ago, Dcat said:

My same gut reaction.  But that is before the brain wheels start turning.

This f'kin' team has me trained like pavlov's dog to puke when they take defense first.

But the draft board is what it is and I want this team to improve as much as humanly possible. Sauce & JJ? There's a chance I can get used to something like that. But honestly, my stomach is a little upset at the moment.

Sign Cooper or trade for Ridley. Sign a RG and double dip at defense in the draft. Not rocket science 

[Gastineau Lives]

59 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

That’s right!

The A&M/UCLA game sold him on Rosen. 

YEAH I couldn't think of the other team but it was a comeback like 38-35 or something. Night game national tv.