Sauce at 4 he won’t be there at 10

[Bronx]

7 hours ago, GangGreen Machine said:

Sack for loss > Pass Deflected 

sack fumble > interception 

Sack for loss - 5 ; Pass caught - 1st down

Sack fumble - infrequent 

Interception - stops the momentum 

We can decipher it in many ways. Both positions are critical. We do need edge rushers, but I value a CB#1 with zero TDs allowed than a diva  Edge#2 with questionable character at #4.

[ZachEY]

8 hours ago, peebag said:

You can imagine how disappointed I was with Deez Nutz.  Dude could not carry the load.

[ZachEY]

8 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I am 100% convinced that if a player has catchy nickname their draft value increases a lot by fans.

Remember how good Teez Tabour was going to be?

Gardner is pretty good and TinFoil is probably correct, he probably will not last to 10 but that does not mean we have to take him at 4.

I'll be disappointed if we took him due to how todays NFL is but I'd sure rather have him than Hamilton or Trayvon Walker.

We should come up with a nickname for him!

I’m going with, Gravy Farmer.

[FidelioJet]

9 hours ago, TinFoil said:

It’s not just because of a nickname the CB is legitimate imo Jermain Johnson at 10

The more I think about it, the more this feels like the best way for the Jets to go...

Draft those two - FA sign a few reasonable LB's and you now have a defense that can, at least, compete at an NFL level.

(go big on O in FA - Cooper, Ertz, top G) draft TE at 36...

[UntouchableCrew]

If we operate under the assumption that we're taking an edge rusher and a CB with two of our top four picks I'd rather take the best edge available at 4 than wait until 10. If Sauce isn't there at 10 there are plenty of good starting CBs available at the top of round 2, IMO

[Jets Things]

10 hours ago, TinFoil said:

Um my name is Matthew? I lurk mostly. I gave Freestarter  a hard time which I regret. But that’s about it.

Join us at https://www.reddit.com/r/matt/  We'd love to have you! 

[Biggs]

10 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I am 100% convinced that if a player has catchy nickname their draft value increases a lot by fans.

Remember how good Teez Tabour was going to be?

Gardner is pretty good and TinFoil is probably correct, he probably will not last to 10 but that does not mean we have to take him at 4.

I'll be disappointed if we took him due to how todays NFL is but I'd sure rather have him than Hamilton or Trayvon Walker.

Relish the sauce.

[Tranquilo]

10 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I am 100% convinced that if a player has catchy nickname their draft value increases a lot by fans.

Remember how good Teez Tabour was going to be?

Gardner is pretty good and TinFoil is probably correct, he probably will not last to 10 but that does not mean we have to take him at 4.

I'll be disappointed if we took him due to how todays NFL is but I'd sure rather have him than Hamilton or Trayvon Walker.

tbf, Ahmad Gardner is a cool name, too

I think if we don't take Gardner, it's cause the Jets really like Travon Walker.

[Dunnie]

I think the Sauce should be the pick at 4. He won’t be there at 10 in my opinion. 
thoughts?

Panicking already ???

[mrcoops]

7 hours ago, genot said:

It would be ridiculous to pass on Hutch or Walker, for Gardner, when you can draft a pass rusher and a corner who might be just as good as Gardner at 10. McDuffie.  He's 2 inches shorter. Not a disqualifier. He's just as good as Gardner.

This is where I am too.  Get your pass-rusher, preferably Walker, at 4.  You can pick a very good CB at 10, and it might still be Gardner.  I prefer this approach to waiting until 10 for an edge, when all the best prospects will be long gone.

[mrcoops]

46 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

If we operate under the assumption that we're taking an edge rusher and a CB with two of our top four picks I'd rather take the best edge available at 4 than wait until 10. If Sauce isn't there at 10 there are plenty of good starting CBs available at the top of round 2, IMO

Bingo.  Pass rushers are more valuable, and more rare, than Corners.  It hurts me to say that, as a former Corner, but it's true.

Edge at 4, CB or WR at 10.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, mrcoops said:

This is where I am too.  Get your pass-rusher, preferably Walker, at 4.  You can pick a very good CB at 10, and it might still be Gardner.  I prefer this approach to waiting until 10 for an edge, when all the best prospects will be long gone.

i have faith that this gm and hc understand the value of good pass rushers.  so far douglas has drafted the right positions in the first 2 rounds, no low value positions.

[Phillyjet]

9 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

There is no such thing as a shut down corner in today's NFL. And even if there were, with 3-4 WR sets, it doesn't make much difference any more.  Defense is all about getting to the QB.  A CB at 4 is a wasted pick IMO.   

I think a strong argument could be made based on value and depth in the draft that Sauce should be the pick at 4.  But I think we'll learn more about how much Saleh values round 1 corners for his defense if he passes for the Edge or OT/Guard.  If he passes on Sauce at 4, I would be surprised if they go corner at 10... would suspect a WR/edge/tackle (depending on whether they go edge or tackle at 4).  I tend to agree that all the corners will be better if they collapse the pocket.  So if they go corner at 4, I would expect edge at 10.  Zadarius Smith could change that calculus (ie they could go tackle or WR after picking Sauce, waiting til Round 2 or lower for an edge or LB prospect), so we'll know more after FA starts next week.

[nycdan]

11 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I am 100% convinced that if a player has catchy nickname their draft value increases a lot by fans.

Remember how good Teez Tabour was going to be?

Gardner is pretty good and TinFoil is probably correct, he probably will not last to 10 but that does not mean we have to take him at 4.

I'll be disappointed if we took him due to how todays NFL is but I'd sure rather have him than Hamilton or Trayvon Walker.

This is probably how we ended up with 'The Boar Hunter' and 'The Bowling Ball with Butcher Knives'.

[CanadaSteve]

11 hours ago, TinFoil said:

I think the Sauce should be the pick at 4. He won’t be there at 10 in my opinion. 
thoughts?

I don't think the Sauce should be the pick at 4.  IF he is there at 10, possibly.  

Those are my thoughts on sauce, and I am 'stick'ing to them!

[slats]

8 hours ago, Green Ghost said:

I’m not saying a good edge isn’t important, I’m saying we need help everywhere.
As long as that’s the case, I want the two best players in the draft at #4 & 10, and I think Gardiner and Hamilton are those two guys. A lock down secondary can only help a pass rush, no?

No player(s) we take in the 1st round are going to give us a winning record this year anyway. We can’t afford gambles. We need to draft “can’t miss guys”, and stockpile as much talent as we can, as quickly as we can because right now we’re similar to an expansion team. When that changes, we can look to draft positionally.

 

This is backwards thinking. The Jets will likely have their choice of every Edge in the draft not named Hutchinson. They need to take the best one and stop thinking about unicorns. This defense is predicated on getting to the QB with four down linemen. —Two great players in the secondary aren’t going to make a difference if they can’t do that, the QB will just hit the guy not covered by either of them. The idea is to hit the QB instead. 
 
And if they don’t do something serious at either WR or TE before the draft, they need to be looking at the best WR on the board at #10, not another defender. And I think (hope) that they understand that. Lots of talk about building around Zach. A CB and a Safety in the first round is not building around Zach, and it’s contrary to how teams running this system prioritize the secondary. A front four of Lawson-QW-JFM-#4 pick should make any secondary look a lot better. Disrupting the QB disrupts the whole play, that’s why Edge is THE premium position on defense. A true shut down CB only effects one WR. The impact isn’t even close. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, slats said:

This is backwards thinking. The Jets will likely have their choice of every Edge in the draft not named Hutchinson. They need to take the best one and stop thinking about unicorns. This defense is predicated on getting to the QB with four down linemen. —Two great players in the secondary aren’t going to make a difference if they can’t do that, the QB will just hit the guy not covered by either of them. The idea is to hit the QB instead. 
 
And if they don’t do something serious at either WR or TE before the draft, they need to be looking at the best WR on the board at #10, not another defender. And I think (hope) that they understand that. Lots of talk about building around Zach. A CB and a Safety in the first round is not building around Zach, and it’s contrary to how teams running this system prioritize the secondary. A front four of Lawson-QW-JFM-#4 pick should make any secondary look a lot better. Disrupting the QB disrupts the whole play, that’s why Edge is THE premium position on defense. A true shut down CB only effects one WR. The impact isn’t even close. 

at this point i think it's likely that the jets go edge at 4.  i'm wondering about 10.  

[k-met57]

SF hasnt drafted a corner before round 3 as long as he was there.

[xJayce]

11 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

See the same issue. I think he's a great prospect and a complete player.

I also think it doesn't matter much with the way the game is officiated. 

Coverage is impossible. 

I would challenge the notion that coverage is impossible.

We saw multiple games last year where opposing WRs were running completely open last year, making 3rd and 20 almost easy.

However, Jets receivers could barely get open all game.

Part of that is obviously pass rush (or lack thereof in our case, giving opposing WRs a bit more time to shake free), but while I think Hall played ok, bringing in a superior talent above him would push Hall to #2, and at the very least make it challenging for opposing QBs.

I agree that coverage is harder, I don't think it's impossible. I also believe we weren't competent enough. And yes, Hall has some decent PD numbers, but we were on the field so often, I'm wondering if it's more a question of pure volume at that point.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, xJayce said:

I would challenge the notion that coverage is impossible.

We saw multiple games last year where opposing WRs were running completely open last year, making 3rd and 20 almost easy.

However, Jets receivers could barely get open all game.

Part of that is obviously pass rush (or lack thereof in our case, giving opposing WRs a bit more time to shake free), but while I think Hall played ok, bringing in a superior talent above him would push Hall to #2, and at the very least make it challenging for opposing QBs.

I agree that coverage is harder, I don't think it's impossible. I also believe we weren't competent enough. And yes, Hall has some decent PD numbers, but we were on the field so often, I'm wondering if it's more a question of pure volume at that point.

pass rush doesn't just force qbs to throw quicker, it can change their mindset for taking chances.  

[Bronx]

21 minutes ago, mrcoops said:

as a former Corner

Darrelle, is that you?

[Jdub03]

1 minute ago, slats said:

This is backwards thinking. The Jets will likely have their choice of every Edge in the draft not named Hutchinson. They need to take the best one and stop thinking about unicorns. This defense is predicated on getting to the QB with four down linemen. —Two great players in the secondary aren’t going to make a difference if they can’t do that, the QB will just hit the guy not covered by either of them. The idea is to hit the QB instead. 
 
And if they don’t do something serious at either WR or TE before the draft, they need to be looking at the best WR on the board at #10, not another defender. And I think (hope) that they understand that. Lots of talk about building around Zach. A CB and a Safety in the first round is not building around Zach, and it’s contrary to how teams running this system prioritize the secondary. A front four of Lawson-QW-JFM-#4 pick should make any secondary look a lot better. Disrupting the QB disrupts the whole play, that’s why Edge is THE premium position on defense. A true shut down CB only effects one WR. The impact isn’t even close. 

To play the contrarion, what if the Jets have 3 or 4 edge guys with equal/similar grades, but Sauce is significantly graded higher than the 2nd-4th CB and edge guys. With the depth of the WRs in this class you could make the argument, CB at #4, Edge#10, WR #35 or a trade back into the first. We have the capital to target players we like.  Obviously, FA will tell us a great deal about needs on draft day, but this is where I'm at currently.

[mrcoops]

1 minute ago, Bronx said:

Darrelle, is that you?

Not quite - one of us played the position at a slightly higher level than the other...

[Green Ghost]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

This is backwards thinking. The Jets will likely have their choice of every Edge in the draft not named Hutchinson. They need to take the best one and stop thinking about unicorns. This defense is predicated on getting to the QB with four down linemen. —Two great players in the secondary aren’t going to make a difference if they can’t do that, the QB will just hit the guy not covered by either of them. The idea is to hit the QB instead. 
 
And if they don’t do something serious at either WR or TE before the draft, they need to be looking at the best WR on the board at #10, not another defender. And I think (hope) that they understand that. Lots of talk about building around Zach. A CB and a Safety in the first round is not building around Zach, and it’s contrary to how teams running this system prioritize the secondary. A front four of Lawson-QW-JFM-#4 pick should make any secondary look a lot better. Disrupting the QB disrupts the whole play, that’s why Edge is THE premium position on defense. A true shut down CB only effects one WR. The impact isn’t even close. 

I already said I value edge guys, but I’m assuming Hutchison and Thibs go in the top 3 when I say take Gardiner at #4.

As far as Hamilton at #10? If he’s there when we pick, I think we’d be foolish not to take the guy many feel is the best player in the draft.

We haven’t even gone through FA yet, so this is only my opinion, based on the roster we have now.
Just like everyone else, I have no idea what Douglas will want to do in the draft, or what his priorities will be until after next week.

 

[GangGreen Machine]

3 hours ago, Bronx said:

Sack for loss - 5 ; Pass caught - 1st down

Sack fumble - infrequent 

Interception - stops the momentum 

We can decipher it in many ways. Both positions are critical. We do need edge rushers, but I value a CB#1 with zero TDs allowed than a diva  Edge#2 with questionable character at #4.

In general, eh maybe. In this defense, it’s very apparent that one of these two positions are not critical. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Green Ghost said:

I already said I value edge guys, but I’m assuming Hutchison and Thibs go in the top 3 when I say take Gardiner at #4.

As far as Hamilton at #10? If he’s there when we pick, I think we’d be foolish not to take the guy many feel is the best player in the draft.

We haven’t even gone through FA yet, so this is only my opinion, based on the roster we have now.
Just like everyone else, I have no idea what Douglas will want to do in the draft, or what his priorities will be until after next week.

 

i suspect walker would be the pick at 4

[More Cowbell]

With the re-signing of Will Parks, this thread has become irrelevant. 

[GKnight83]

I think Neal is going to be the pick at 4. 

Agree Sauce is not there at 10.

Now, if Carolina offers us this 1-6 this year with next years 2nd and 3rd I would choose Sauce at 6

[Bronx]

15 minutes ago, GangGreen Machine said:

In general, eh maybe. In this defense, it’s very apparent that one of these two positions are not critical. 

The passing game is nonexistent and CBs are dinosaurs.

Only 68.3% allowed, crickets, crickets.

[slats]

5 minutes ago, Green Ghost said:

I already said I value edge guys, but I’m assuming Hutchison and Thibs go in the top 3 when I say take Gardiner at #4.

As far as Hamilton at #10? If he’s there when we pick, I think we’d be foolish not to take the guy many feel is the best player in the draft.

We haven’t even gone through FA yet, so this is only my opinion, based on the roster we have now.
Just like everyone else, I have no idea what Douglas will want to do in the draft, or what his priorities will be until after next week.

 

I’m not sure that Thibs is the consensus guy, anyway, so I’m not worried about him being off the board when they pick. They should have these Edges thoroughly scouted, and they should take their top guy at #4 rather than wait and see what’s still available at #10 (or in the second round?!?). 
 
Hamilton’s 4.59 40 is more than a little concerning when you’re talking about taking such a non-premium position in the top ten. Especially when Travon Walker ran a 4.51 at 275 lbs.  

7 minutes ago, Jdub03 said:

To play the contrarion, what if the Jets have 3 or 4 edge guys with equal/similar grades, but Sauce is significantly graded higher than the 2nd-4th CB and edge guys. With the depth of the WRs in this class you could make the argument, CB at #4, Edge#10, WR #35 or a trade back into the first. We have the capital to target players we like.  Obviously, FA will tell us a great deal about needs on draft day, but this is where I'm at currently.

I simply don’t think it will be the case. They talk about positional value, they understand it, and they devalue the CB position compared to much of the league. Teams that run this defense don’t take secondary players high, but they do take a lot of DL/Edge. 

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

Let me put this another way.  When you draft at #4 - you are hoping for a Pro-Bowl level player.

 

Who would you rather have

Trent Williams/Slater/Wirfs/Lane Johnson/Q Nelson or

TJ Watt/Garrett/Bosa or

Diggs/Ramsay/JC Jackson/Terrell/Beyard/Baker/Fitzpatrick

 

Adams/Kupp/Chase/Jefferson

It's pretty obvious that the OL/Edge players are far more valuable than the DBS.  It's not even close.  WRs are also more valuable by far. The Jets should prioritize Edge/OL or even WR with the 4 and same with 10.  Taking DBs with one or both is idiotic.  The Jets did the same thing when they used the Revis pick for Milliner.  If they use the Adams pick to take his replacement at a position of low significance, then Douglas is no better than his predecessors.

[Green Ghost]

11 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i suspect walker would be the pick at 4

I think a lot of people jumped on the Walker train last week. I’m leery of taking him at #4 though.
If I remember correctly during the combine, @Lith told us that Walker wasn’t a 3 down player at Georgia. He was replaced by another player on 3rd down who they considered a better pass rusher.

That worries me. 

[Beaver]

9 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

In a league that has rendered pass defense virtually impossible, using one of the two early picks on a DB would be stupid. Using both on DBs would be absurdly and ridiculously stupid.   

I keep hearing this but I disagree.   If thibs and Hutch are gone, why not Gardner?    I hear it's too early to grab a CB (Gardner)....it's too early to grab a safety (Harrison).   It's too early to grab a Guard (Ekwonu).........But yet the 3rd best pass rusher is not too early?    

 

Is there a real difference between Karlaftis, Johnson, or Walker?  If not, one will be there at 10.

[Green Ghost]

6 minutes ago, GKnight83 said:

I think Neal is going to be the pick at 4. 

Agree Sauce is not there at 10.

Now, if Carolina offers us this 1-6 this year with next years 2nd and 3rd I would choose Sauce at 6

Neal at #4 would make me vomit. Terrible use of resources.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Green Ghost said:

I think a lot of people jumped on the Walker train last week. I’m leery of taking him at #4 though.
If I remember correctly during the combine, @Lith told us that Walker wasn’t a 3 down player at Georgia. He was replaced by another player on 3rd down who they considered a better pass rusher.

That worries me. 

that georgia d was so stacked, you're going to have 4 first round picks this year alone from this d.  so i don't know if you can read that much into sacks or rotations.  clearly what they did was good b/c they won the whole thing.