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After Jets' free agent frenzy, Zach Wilson must put all the new pieces together


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15 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Were Corey Davis or Elijah Moore even playing at the end of the year?

I thought those guys were out for like the final month of the season.

Wasn’t our $7M man, Braxton Berrios, the WR1 for a big chunk of the season?

Of course. 

For some reason much of our fan base and the media don't think the players around the QB matter.  Yes, QB is the top priority but when your best player is 5'8" kick returner and an offensive line made up of almost entirely 3rd stringers...

There isn't a single QB in the league that would have thrived with the line up Zach was playing with after his injury.

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4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Of course. 

For some reason much of our fan base and the media don't think the players around the QB matter.  Yes, QB is the top priority but when your best player is 5'8" kick returner and an offensive line made up of almost entirely 3rd stringers...

There isn't a single QB in the league that would have thrived with the line up Zach was playing with after his injury.

The three guys that filled in for him thrived pretty well . As I stated over that time period the Jets were top five in the entire NFL putting up over 400 yards a game, so there's that 

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4 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

The three guys that filled in for him thrived pretty well . As I stated over that time period the Jets were top five in the entire NFL putting up over 400 yards a game, so there's that 

There was one good game where I don't the ball went more than 15 yards in the air - I'm not taking anything away from that Mike White game...exceptionally impressive, fun, exciting..Special - but an aberration none the less.  His next game he threw 5 int's and was pulled ...

The rest has been simply a fallacy driven by Jet fans that don't like Wilson.  The team went 1-3 when Zach wasn't playing.  

With that said - even if what you're saying were true - I think you missed the point I'm was trying to make.  A young QB's that isn't used to the speed of the game, that aren't used to the complicated coverage schemes - are heavily supported by #1 type receivers.  it alleviates pressure on him and essentially slows down the game because initial reads are open more often or he can throw the ball into tighter coverage knowing his guy will win.

The other 3 guys that played were Vets.  Even White had been in the league 4 years, the other two have been around forever.

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9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And for reals, no one will forget that epic 87 yard passing performance of Zach Wilson vs. that same team. 

That was a truly special day.  QB'ing doesn't get any better than that.

Come on - Throwing to #1 WR Braxton Berrios and a guy off the street that no ones ever even heard off as option 3 (I can't even remember his name) with a make shift OL.  Against the #1 defense in the league.  He did also throw 5 less INT's than Mike White did..

In similar weather conditions to a game where super star rookie QB Mac Jones threw 2 passes.

But you know that - you're better than this....Under the circumstances, while certainly not good, Zach performed admirably that day.  

 

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2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Come on - Throwing to #1 WR Braxton Berrios and a guy off the street that no ones ever even heard off as option 3 (I can't even remember his name) with a make shift OL.  Against the #1 defense in the league.  He did also throw 5 less INT's than Mike White did.

Who can forget Tarik Black..

Berrios missed that game too. Cole was our number receiver that day. 

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7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And for reals, no one will forget that epic 87 yard passing performance of Zach Wilson vs. that same team. 

That was a truly special day.  QB'ing doesn't get any better than that.

I make 2 conclusions off of this:

1) QBs that don't have much actual playtime aren't great

2) The Bills defense is really good. This can be backed up by the fact that there were only 4 games where the Bills didn't generate any turnovers on defense, and Zach Wilson accounted for one of only 12 TD passes.

So using the Bills in any example is obviously bad, as you pointed out. But as someone who called out Zach for not helping the team score enough against the Bills, remember that Mike White threw for a total of 0 points against the Bills, compared to Zach's 6 points.

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2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Come on - Throwing to #1 WR Braxton Berrios and a guy off the street that no ones ever even heard off as option 3 (I can't even remember his name) with a make shift OL.  Against the #1 defense in the league.  He did also throw 5 less INT's than Mike White did..

In similar weather conditions to a game where super star rookie QB Mac Jones threw 2 passes.

But you know that - you're better than this....Under the circumstances, while certainly not good, Zach performed admirably that day.  

 

No, I'm totes magoats serious, his complete lack of passing production was a truly brilliant tactical decision by a truly brilliant young QB.

He saw what actually trying to win produces.  Yards, sure, but possibly Interceptions too!  And he was doing everything humanly possible late last year to not throw the flurry of INT's he threw early, and you know what...he didn't. 

Sure, he only completed 7 passes, but what an amazing feat that was!  Seven whole passes against that Bills killer Defense without an INT?  To Braxton "2022 #3 WR" Berrios?  No normal human QB could do such a wonderous thing.  It truly was a sign of his future greatness. 

Thank you Joe Douglas, thank you!

I can't wait to see how he does against the great defenses in 2022.  He might even complete eight passes.  He could, and I know it's premature to hope for this, but he could eclipse the century mark.  100 yards passing. 

That would be special.  Far more special than trying to win and throwing 5 INT's, definitely.

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

There was one good game where I don't the ball went more than 15 yards in the air - I'm not taking anything away from that Mike White game...exceptionally impressive, fun, exciting..Special - but an aberration none the less.  His next game he threw 5 int's and was pulled ...

The rest has been simply a fallacy driven by Jet fans that don't like Wilson.  The team went 1-3 when Zach wasn't playing.  

With that said - even if what you're saying were true - I think you missed the point I'm was trying to make.  A young QB's that isn't used to the speed of the game, that aren't used to the complicated coverage schemes - are heavily supported by #1 type receivers.  it alleviates pressure on him and essentially slows down the game because initial reads are open more often or he can throw the ball into tighter coverage knowing his guy will win.

The other 3 guys that played were Vets.  Even White had been in the league 4 years, the other two have been around forever.

3 fallacies you posted here alone In his next game he drove us for a score to tie the game and lost feeling in his arm pretty much picking up where he left off. In the next game He threw the ints vs Buffalo but was in the process of tying the score vs the Bills when Davis fumbled and then buffalo rattled off 14 straight points making it 24-3 . I think at that point White started to press causing the Int's but hey just like Zach was young during his bad stretch so was Mike White who at that stage had less NFL starts than Zach. Buffalo also happens to be the hardest defense on QB's in the NFL but somehow MW with 1 game and a quarter under his belt was expected to do what he did vs the Bengals.  Only Difference was Zach will get numerous chances to right the ship while a young Mike White was not given the same luxury cause you know ceiling . 

Fallacy 2 you denied .... was this team did put up 400 plus yards a game while Zach was hurt and yes they were one of the top offenses in the league during that time period as well with 3 different QB's . You can go into denial about that but its the truth and some were making big news out of it.

Fallacy 3 No one here hates Zach and wants him to fail, that's ridiculous. I mean if Zach throws 30 TD's this year and limits mistakes no one will be pounding the table to get him out of there. But if he sh*ts the bed during the first 4 games you may see him hit the bench and that will not be an unwarranted move.

Also those 15 yard passes are the bulk of how the WCO operates better get used to it and so better Zach get used to it.

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1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

@FidelioJet cool keep neg repping me if it makes ya happy to be in denial

You started with the neg repping thing. I thought you were into it.  Not really my thing, but was just following suit. 
I was trying to have a simple debate.  

You choose to relentlessly attack Wilson and act like when he was injured the team flourished, which outside of one game is flat out wrong.  

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6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

 

You choose to relentlessly attack Wilson and act like when he was injured the team flourished, which outside of one game is flat out wrong.  

Denial much? It ain’t just a river in Egypt!

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12 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

You choose to relentlessly attack Wilson....

It's Ok Ms. Wilson, your son is durable enough to handle a little forum criticism he'll never read nor ever know exists..

 

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We can’t fully evaluate Zach until the other 10 players on offense are all above average, proven starters… and there’s at least one average starter behind each of those 10…bc of injuries. 

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3 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

You started with the neg repping thing. I thought you were into it.  Not really my thing, but was just following suit. 
I was trying to have a simple debate.  

You choose to relentlessly attack Wilson and act like when he was injured the team flourished, which outside of one game is flat out wrong.  

find me one neg rep I ever put on anyone :)

 

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16 hours ago, Warfish said:

Exactly.

Any circumstance where he does not make progress, but regresses, will be a sure sign he's a bust.

I think we all presume he will improve, but how much is the real question.

Lets set the baseline:  He was the lowest rated QB in the NFL in 2021 amongst qualifying QB's, at 69.7 (Source: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing.htm).  He had the third lowest YPA at 6.1.  And the 7th worst INT% at 2.9%.

He really needs to move these metrics up to at least low-average in year 2, somewhere in the 15-20 rated range at minimum (or a QB Rating around ~85-90, give or take), a YPA closer to 7.0 and a TD to INT ratio of closer to 2:1 than the 1:>1 he produced in 2021. 

This is needed to inspire some real confidence that he has improved enough to warrant ongoing investment in him as an uncontested #1 QB.  

Rising from "dead last" to "close to average" is about the right level of improvement we fans should expect from the #2 overall pick in his second year in the league, if he is in fact the Man.

 

Indeed Warfish

For reference here are the numbers for Josh Allen's first 4 Years

                Attempts   Completions  Total Yards  Y/Completion  Tds    Ints   QB Rating  Int/Attempt%

Year 1        320                169           2074                6.48          10     12       67.89            3.75

Year 2        461                271           3089                6.7            20       9       85,32            1.95

Year 3        572                396           4544                7.94          37     10      107.15           1.78

Year 4        646                409           4407                6.82          36     15        92.17           2.32

 

For the hell of it here are Mac Jones' numbers for 2021

Year 1        352                521          3801                 7.3            22      13       92.5             2.49

 

In all fairness Mac Jones was dropped in to an offense that was already built and debugged. The Jets Offense of 2021 was much like the Bills Offense in 2018, in the first stages of a rebuilding where large chunks were being over hauled. So there were other things going outside of Allen's development.  Same with Zach.  Zach's development trajectory should be more or less mirror what Josh Allen did.

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4 hours ago, WestCoastMole said:

Indeed Warfish

For reference here are the numbers for Josh Allen's first 4 Years

                Attempts   Completions  Total Yards  Y/Completion  Tds    Ints   QB Rating  Int/Attempt%

Year 1        320                169           2074                6.48          10     12       67.89            3.75

Year 2        461                271           3089                6.7            20       9       85,32            1.95

Year 3        572                396           4544                7.94          37     10      107.15           1.78

Year 4        646                409           4407                6.82          36     15        92.17           2.32

 

For the hell of it here are Mac Jones' numbers for 2021

Year 1        352                521          3801                 7.3            22      13       92.5             2.49

 

In all fairness Mac Jones was dropped in to an offense that was already built and debugged. The Jets Offense of 2021 was much like the Bills Offense in 2018, in the first stages of a rebuilding where large chunks were being over hauled. So there were other things going outside of Allen's development.  Same with Zach.  Zach's development trajectory should be more or less mirror what Josh Allen did.

And Allen should be a minimum for passing, as Allen brings an entire wing of his game (running) that Wilson does not.  

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18 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

The three guys that filled in for him thrived pretty well . As I stated over that time period the Jets were top five in the entire NFL putting up over 400 yards a game, so there's that 

Mike White had everyone except for Davis

Same for Johnson a week later

Flacco had all the Jet WRs in both of his games

 

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12 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

find me one neg rep I ever put on anyone :)

 

You are correct. My fault - it was @WarfishI meant to neg rep as he started with it.  My mistake and I apologize for that.   

But in my defense, you both post the same continued attacks of ZW - you often seem to mirror each other.  It’s easy to get confused.  
You won’t see it again though. 
 

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11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And Allen should be a minimum for passing, as Allen brings an entire wing of his game (running) that Wilson does not.  

Because Allen, in his 3rd season and Wilson in his second are comparable

As are the talent level of the teams they for at this point

I can see how that comparison works.  🙄

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45 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:


But in my defense, you both post the same continued attacks of ZW - you often seem to mirror each other.  It’s easy to get confused.  
You won’t see it again though. 
 

Really? Grow a thicker skin. “Attacks” on ZW?!? Lol!!! 🤣 what are you his mother? Valid Criticism does not equal attacks. 🙄

 

Wilson played horribly, yes there were other material contributing factors that exacerbated his play, but it was Apparent to anyone with eyes and who have watched football for over 15+ years (35 in my case) that Wilson was not ready and has to make MAJOR improvements in 2022.
 

No one in this forum is rooting for Wilson to fail, but let’s call it like it is: Wilson played like $hit in ‘21 that was abysmal for the #2 overall pick in the draft; the yips are really concerning. The poor roster and stupefying, at times, play calling only made him look worse.
And for the ones citing his last few games, he was muzzled within the offense and play calling, a game manager at best, and Darnold also ended in a “high note” of improved play to end the ‘18 season- where is he now?

Wilson, please don’t let us down.🙁

 

 

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

You are correct. My fault - it was @WarfishI meant to neg rep as he started with it.  My mistake and I apologize for that.   

But in my defense, you both post the same continued attacks of ZW - you often seem to mirror each other.  It’s easy to get confused.  
You won’t see it again though. 
 

Fidelio no one is attacking Zach I want the kid to light up the league but he just played very poorly and I'm not going to sugar coat that . he had a couple of good games but nothing close to approaching a great game . I also feel his lack of turnovers late in the year was  him playing scared and you just can't do that as an NFL QB . Hopefully he comes out this year and moves this offense I'm sure we will know pretty quick whether he is making strides. 

I would have much rather he played not to make mistakes early in the year (because that was possible ) and then got a little more brave as the year went on ...its almost as if he did things backwards and that to some extent I put on the coaches .

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Tariq Black was was WR2 in the second buffalo game.  I kinda feel like that matters.  Do you think Brady would have left NE for Tampa if they didn’t have an all star skill position group?  Im sure he wouldve signed up for Tariq 

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13 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Zach had them all early in the year didn't he ?

Yes he did, when he admittedly played much worse than post injury when he had no one to throw to often

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