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After Jets' free agent frenzy, Zach Wilson must put all the new pieces together


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8 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

I also feel his lack of turnovers late in the year was  him playing scared and you just can't do that as an NFL QB

I never felt that.  While playing with a repeated roster, everywhere he looked.  WR, RB, TE & OL.  

I dont get how he looked scared in his biggest post injury matchup against Brady and the Bucs

 

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16 minutes ago, DetroitRed said:

Tariq Black was was WR2 in the second buffalo game.  I kinda feel like that matters.  Do you think Brady would have left NE for Tampa if they didn’t have an all star skill position group?  Im sure he wouldve signed up for Tariq 

With Connor McDermott at LT, Feeney at C, Denzel Mims leading all receivers in offensive snaps, followed by Jeff Smith (Black had the fourth most snow at WR after Cole). 
 
But yeah, sure, it was all on Zach that week. 

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25 minutes ago, slats said:

With Connor McDermott at LT, Feeney at C, Denzel Mims leading all receivers in offensive snaps, followed by Jeff Smith (Black had the fourth most snow at WR after Cole). 
 
But yeah, sure, it was all on Zach that week. 

The Bills are the best pass D in the NFL.   Against that crew?

But , Mims is a beast!

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1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

I never felt that.  While playing with a repeated roster, everywhere he looked.  WR, RB, TE & OL.  

I dont get how he looked scared in his biggest post injury matchup against Brady and the Bucs

 

You're going to quote me one game to make the point ? As a QB you take chances in various situational football Zach did not throw many int's because he challenged no one. he had his best game vs the Buc's, not going to deny that but he did have the receivers early in the year so sorry but no excuses .

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1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

Fidelio no one is attacking Zach I want the kid to light up the league but he just played very poorly and I'm not going to sugar coat that . he had a couple of good games but nothing close to approaching a great game . I also feel his lack of turnovers late in the year was  him playing scared and you just can't do that as an NFL QB . Hopefully he comes out this year and moves this offense I'm sure we will know pretty quick whether he is making strides. 

I would have much rather he played not to make mistakes early in the year (because that was possible ) and then got a little more brave as the year went on ...its almost as if he did things backwards and that to some extent I put on the coaches .

Here's the thing.  I agree with most of what people say about Zach Wilson - he wasn't good.  

But there is often an unwillingness to see anything positive - there are still plenty of people around here that do attack him - maybe not you.

My problem is mostly with irrational fans that are constantly attacking the kid - and this idea that the 1-3 Jets were somehow a powerhouse offense when he was out is really just silly.  Honestly.  There was one amazing game - no question, the other 3 were blowouts with yardage in garbage time.

I also agree, we didn't see one complete "Great" game from him.  He was more raw than I hoped, but his game evolved - it was clear, to me, that he learned from his mistakes and made adjustments - but he still has a long way to go.

With that said, he got no help from the team.  Drops, injuries, early play calling (I honestly think LaFleur/Jets management thought Wilson was ready for more - and opened up the full playbook early - which seems to have been a mistake and what drove Zach's overly aggressive play and caused some real problems)

I think his conservative play late was less about fear and more about lack of surrounding talent.  Rather than force the ball to covered receivers and make mistakes, he took what was there and if it wasn't lived to play another down.  I suspect he was coached to do that with an underhanding that the team wasn't going to win much - but they would also play clean football.

To me, his best game was the Eagles game - well, the first half of it.  He was not conservative that day - but played smart.  He still had Moore and they connected a few times downfield - they ran the ball exceptionally well - and Zach played well on 3rd downs.  He wasn't afraid to get aggressive when it was there.  Third quarter they had one drive - and by the 4th quarter the game was out of reach.  To me, that first half is the QB and team I want to see more of.

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13 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

You're going to quote me one game to make the point ? As a QB you take chances in various situational football Zach did not throw many int's because he challenged no one. he had his best game vs the Buc's, not going to deny that but he did have the receivers early in the year so sorry but no excuses .

He has to play better but, how about a little context? Zach was awful, but he was being led by a rookie head coach with a rookie OC and rookies at LG, WR, and RB. The OL was about half a year away from looking like it even understood the blocking scheme being installed. Everyone was learning on the job. And then by the time he was playing a little better, the team around him was essentially in triage. It was a rough year. He needs to improve on his relatively solid finish. He needs to be much more than a game manager. And we can look at the situation fairly, too. 

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52 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Here's the thing.  I agree with most of what people say about Zach Wilson - he wasn't good.  

falling-out-of-chair-gif-9.gif

Saving this for posterity.

52 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

But there is often an unwillingness to see anything positive

It's hard to see too much positive in a QB who was literally the worst at QB'ing in the NFL, or close enough to that.

Sure, no INT's for the second half (for example) is "good", but the drop-off in production that went with it sorta nullifies that good for the most part.  Anyone can throw fewer INT's if they're not really trying to produce yards, TD's or wins during trash time late in a year when nothing is on the line.....

And sure one of two games were descent, but most weren't.  The net of it all is what it is, the lowest rated QB in the NFL with a poop first season well below expectations of the 2nd pick in the draft. 

That's the facts at hand so far.

I am sure the deck chairs were VERY comfortable on the Titanic, and I am sure someone in the water that night was nagging his fellow boaters about "not seeing the positives" the Titanic had....before it sank....but frankly, you should really expect a mostly negative view of a guy who was the worst in the NFL at his job.  And no, Mr. Generationlols or Fields being poop too doesn't make Wilson being poop better.   

52 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

My problem is mostly with irrational fans that are constantly attacking the kid

But why is this a problem for YOU exactly? 

No one is attacking (or more accurately, being critical or pessimistic or cynical about) you. 

We cynics hold fact-based critical opinions of a QB based on what has happened so far, not a projection of what might happen (Everyone basically agrees he could improve, or could not, that that is TBD).  

Why does what others think in that way bother you so much that you need to literally rise to Wilson's defense every time his name in brought up in any thread, like you were literally his mother and the criticism was hurting you personally?

If you're optimistic about Wilson, great.  You're entitled to that.  The same way we cynics are who saw the poop of 2021 and wonder if that poop will turn into a Top 5 QB Rose anytime soon.  

 

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11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

We cynics hold fact-based critical opinions of a QB based on what has happened so far, not a projection of what might happen (Everyone basically agrees he could improve, or could not, that that is TBD).  

Why does what others think in that way bother you so much that you need to literally rise to Wilson's defense every time his name in brought up in any thread, like you were literally his mother and the criticism was hurting you personally?

Because we're here to have discussions about the NY Jets.  Are we not?

And continued attacks, that are often not based in reality - and simply harms the natural discourse.

I have no personal relationship with Zach Wilson, but I would prefer to have a reasonable and fair debate.  Far too often it's simply attacks for attack sake.  

When there are discussions about his actual performance - I am quite fair.  Always have been.  

 

15 minutes ago, Warfish said:

If you're optimistic about Wilson, great.  You're entitled to that.  The same way we cynics are who saw the poop of 2021 and wonder if that poop will turn into a Top 5 QB Rose anytime soon.  

 

I am more optimistic than most I would say, but surely have concerns.  He has a long way to go.

20 minutes ago, Warfish said:

We cynics hold fact-based critical opinions of a QB based on what has happened so far, not a projection of what might happen (Everyone basically agrees he could improve, or could not, that that is TBD).

Facts? Watching a football game is subjective.  If you're going to look at footballs stats as your determining factor to performance - without taking into the how and why - you're doing a disservice to reality.

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8 hours ago, WestCoastMole said:

Indeed Warfish

For reference here are the numbers for Josh Allen's first 4 Years

                Attempts   Completions  Total Yards  Y/Completion  Tds    Ints   QB Rating  Int/Attempt%

Year 1        320                169           2074                6.48          10     12       67.89            3.75

Year 2        461                271           3089                6.7            20       9       85,32            1.95

Year 3        572                396           4544                7.94          37     10      107.15           1.78

Year 4        646                409           4407                6.82          36     15        92.17           2.32

 

For the hell of it here are Mac Jones' numbers for 2021

Year 1        352                521          3801                 7.3            22      13       92.5             2.49

 

In all fairness Mac Jones was dropped in to an offense that was already built and debugged. The Jets Offense of 2021 was much like the Bills Offense in 2018, in the first stages of a rebuilding where large chunks were being over hauled. So there were other things going outside of Allen's development.  Same with Zach.  Zach's development trajectory should be more or less mirror what Josh Allen did.

Sort of. They picked up two new TEs and their WRs put us all to sleep (not that Jones can reach/hit them with any consistency). How many deep pass TDs did he throw all year? 

I do agree that others around him gaining 2000 yards and a couple dozen TDs on the ground & a defense giving up <20ppg does make a QB's job easier than 1500 yards & 10 TDs & a 30ppg defense. And yes, a very experienced vs 1st year OC who knew where his comfort zone was in terms of where he stood during the game (among other coaching disparities). And the juggling WR starters. And the OL with more new faces & new scheme. All of it.

BUT

Wilson had his own problems independent of those relative disadvantages, though. Like it's easy to forget there were like a couple games in a row where he was missing easy dumpoffs to his backs & TEs - badly - like it was a Hackenberg lookalike competition. Like short screens that hit the dirt a yard before the target. Obviously he has the arm & that was in his head, but you can't blame the offense or anyone else on the team for things like that.

I can write a lot of it off as he was put on the field too early, but whether he held a clipboard or a football last year, he's expected to produce this year and not just be hidden more effectively. 

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51 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

I’m sorry Sam hurt you.  Zachary will help you learn to love a Jet QB again.  

Nagle (1991), Chad (2000). Clemens (2006), Sanchez (2009), Geno (2013), Hackenberg (2016) , Darnold (2018), now Wilson (2021).

And this is only the most recent group, and only 1st and 2nd rounder busts/disappointments.  Only Chad was any good, and bitterly so.

My cynicism of Jets Drafted QB's is well earned and fact based.

And of all these guys, apart from Hackenberg, Wilson may have had the worst first year played of all of them, despite being the highest picked of them all....

It's funny, the only decent one sat for a bit.  Maybe we should think about that since Wilson clearly would have benefitted from sitting for a bit himself first.  He wasn't ready.

It's almost like some of you only joined when Wilson did... :-k :lol:

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15 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Nagle (1991), Chad (2000). Clemens (2006), Sanchez (2009), Geno (2013), Hackenberg (2016) , Darnold (2018), now Wilson (2021).

And this is only the most recent group, and only 1st and 2nd rounder busts/disappointments.  Only Chad was any good, and bitterly so.

My cynicism of Jets Drafted QB's is well earned and fact based.

And of all these guys, apart from Hackenberg, Wilson may have had the worst first year played of all of them, despite being the highest picked of them all....

It's funny, the only decent one sat for a bit.  Maybe we should think about that since Wilson clearly would have benefitted from sitting for a bit himself first.  He wasn't ready.

It's almost like some of you only joined when Wilson did... :-k :lol:

hahaha.  For me yes guilty as charged.   Wilson BYU days fan.  I’m sucked in now though.  
 

I normally think college QBs will be busts.   I thought Allen had a chance to be really good but would probably suck for instance.   Jordan Love didn't look like he should be drafted to me.   Lawrence looked like a future midling starter.   Sam and Rosen looked like total busts.   (I think Sam showed lots of promise as a rookie - more than I ever would have guessed so I think I was wrong) Taysom Hill would be a good TE, etc….  I never thought college QBs look good.  
 

But Zach looks like Aaron Rodgers to me.  He seemed to have everything and it looks clear as day to me so it’s interesting seeing people hate on him.  
 

10% more completions, 1-2 more dazzle plays, and add some real weapons and he’s a top tier QB.  I saw the tools I thought I would, so it seems easy.  I know it’s not a given, but I trust in his attributes of confidence and working hard too. 
 

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If you're Joe Douglas, after watching Zack Wilson up close his rookie season, which related path does he take:

1) 100%+++ all in on ZW. Spend every resource possible, including some future resources, to surround Zack with the best players and team humanly possible. All in. Knowing that this plan has zero recovery for his future and the entire coaching staff's future if the ZW experiment fails.

2) Or go 85% all in on ZW while quietly start planning for life after ZW, should it become necessary. Squirrel away some resources, perhaps trading down this year for 2023/24 draft capital, etc, just in case those resources become necessary to move on from Zack Wilson. The Johnson Twins may decide to keep JD/Saleh around if they have a well-thought-out plan for the team to move forward sans Zack Wilson.

Zack will have 3 years to figure it out. Year two is already underway. But after that, 2024, we'll either continue forward with Zack or cut bait, and possibly clean house.

So, does JD go all in on ZW now knowing his career in on the line, or quietly build resources towards 2024 if necessary to support a career saving move? What would you do?

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Because we're here to have discussions about the NY Jets.  Are we not?

And continued attacks, that are often not based in reality - and simply harms the natural discourse.

I have no personal relationship with Zach Wilson, but I would prefer to have a reasonable and fair debate.  Far too often it's simply attacks for attack sake.  

When there are discussions about his actual performance - I am quite fair.  Always have been.  

 

I am more optimistic than most I would say, but surely have concerns.  He has a long way to go.

Facts? Watching a football game is subjective.  If you're going to look at footballs stats as your determining factor to performance - without taking into the how and why - you're doing a disservice to reality.

I don't see any unwarranted attacks, just people talking about what they see on the football field. I have not seen anyone at this stage say "no way Zach is gonna make it, he basically sucks."  When you see that it would be fine for you to argue that point until then just take the truth for what it is an stop making excuses for bad football. Everyone knows the situation, everyone knows the circumstances, everyone wants Zach to succeed, if they don't, then they should find another team to root for.

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37 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

I have not seen anyone at this stage say "no way Zach is gonna make it, he basically sucks."

 This is ALL OVER this place.  If you're not seeing that we must be viewing different threads.  

41 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

then just take the truth for what it is an stop making excuses for bad football

This is also where I choose to challenge silly arguments.  Fact is there were extenuating circumstances for Wilson this year.  He wasn't placed in a good situation to succeed, there were an inordinate amount of injuries, he did have an excessive amount of drops, the OL, particularly early - was as bad as I've ever seen an OL play.

These aren't unfounded excuses but reality.  I've continued to express that he wasn't good, he didn't play well, he needs to be better...but two things can be true at once.....  

He could have been bad - but the circumstances around could have exasperated the situation.  Shouldn't be hard to accept.

39 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Everyone knows the situation, everyone knows the circumstances, everyone wants Zach to succeed, if they don't, then they should find another team to root for.

And I simply don't agree with this.  There are MANY people that are so dug in on him failing - they would rather see him fail than the Jets win.

We do agree on the fact that they should root for another team.

Bottom line, I think you and are relatively close on how we view Wilson's seasons. I put a bit more of his failures on the hand he was dealt rather than taking a data first approach - but understand he has a very, very long way to go to just be competent.

I think we're both hopeful he can figure it out though.

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1 hour ago, Snell41 said:

I am probably the biggest critic of ZW in this site. All we’ve done is hand him 2 second rate TE’s that don’t move the needle at all. Tomlinson is nice, but ZW doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing in a scripted NFL world, so he needs the play to breakdown to find success playing street ball. The best thing you can do for this kid is the give him fast playmakers at WR and yet here we sit with Corey Davis as our #1 and a bunch of delusional fans that think a rookie that missed nearly half the season over a hamstring is gonna break out and be some super stud. The bottom line is we have a very injury prone and underwhelming starting lineup at WR to begin with and we’re one injury away from Vyncent Smith. You’d think our FO/ownership after years of us marching guys like Chanci Stuckey, Corey Davis, David Clowney, Enunwa…. On and on. Literally in the last 25 years practically the only time we’ve had any success whatsoever we had very good WR units, yet our FO continually ignores it. Yes I think ZW sucks, but at least give the kid a weapon to prove me wrong.


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Good post and I agree. Right now it seems like we are going into 2022 with maybe even a worse WR corps which is unacceptable. I actually do not believe there is any big trade in the works and not convinced we take WR in RD 1 and all the good ones might be gone by 35. 

Tomlisson is a bigger upgrade than people may think and I would argue the 2 TEs we got are better than "second rate" but still concerned about how the draft plays out. Most want to go all defense but IMO we did that with Sam and to think the surrounding cast around Zach is anything more than average at this point is delusional.

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3 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

But Zach looks like Aaron Rodgers to me.  

This says sooooooooo much.

I have no words for you if what you saw in Wilson last year was Aaron Rodgers.

3 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

He seemed to have everything and it looks clear as day to me so it’s interesting seeing people hate on him.

Doubt.  Not Hate.

Sports fans use the word "hate" far too much, and far too flippantly.  

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3 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

I don't see any unwarranted attacks, just people talking about what they see on the football field. I have not seen anyone at this stage say "no way Zach is gonna make it, he basically sucksn." 

Because no one should say that.

What we saw in 2021 was total poop.  Worst in the league.  

We don't know yet what we'll see in 2022 yet.  His biggest fans could be right, he could become a top 10 QB in 2022, 2023, and beyond, and guys like me will eat a truck full of pies full of tasty tasty crow.

Or he could be poop again, or just meh like Darnold, and his biggest fans will either leave (because they were really just BYU Fans, like the USC fans before them) or they will likely just start hyping up the next QB they fall in love with and forget Wilson ever existed.

Same cycle as usual.

 

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1 hour ago, johnnysd said:

Good post and I agree. Right now it seems like we are going into 2022 with maybe even a worse WR corps which is unacceptable. I actually do not believe there is any big trade in the works and not convinced we take WR in RD 1 and all the good ones might be gone by 35. 

Tomlisson is a bigger upgrade than people may think and I would argue the 2 TEs we got are better than "second rate" but still concerned about how the draft plays out. Most want to go all defense but IMO we did that with Sam and to think the surrounding cast around Zach is anything more than average at this point is delusional.

I agree and this is depressing 

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3 hours ago, FootballLove said:

If you're Joe Douglas, after watching Zack Wilson up close his rookie season, which related path does he take:

1) 100%+++ all in on ZW. Spend every resource possible, including some future resources, to surround Zack with the best players and team humanly possible. All in. Knowing that this plan has zero recovery for his future and the entire coaching staff's future if the ZW experiment fails.

2) Or go 85% all in on ZW while quietly start planning for life after ZW, should it become necessary. Squirrel away some resources, perhaps trading down this year for 2023/24 draft capital, etc, just in case those resources become necessary to move on from Zack Wilson. The Johnson Twins may decide to keep JD/Saleh around if they have a well-thought-out plan for the team to move forward sans Zack Wilson.

Zack will have 3 years to figure it out. Year two is already underway. But after that, 2024, we'll either continue forward with Zack or cut bait, and possibly clean house.

So, does JD go all in on ZW now knowing his career in on the line, or quietly build resources towards 2024 if necessary to support a career saving move? What would you do?

This is where they kinda have to be. They’re in with Zach for the second pick in the draft and the $30M+ guaranteed right now, but that’s it. There are a number of valid reasons (excuses?) for Zach’s poor statistical first season, but no one in the Jets organization could possibly look at last year and want to go all in at this point. 
 
My feeling has been that Douglas would like to trade down and get a 2023 first as part of the deal. This, unfortunately, is something of a Zach Wilson evaluation year. JD needs to improve the team around him to get a fair look, but ZW has a lot to prove still. He needs to make the jump to, at least, the middle of the pack or so. With reason to believe he’ll continue to get better. Otherwise, they might have to start thinking about another QB. If that’s a possibility for you next year, you want to be in a position to be able to make a deal. Another first goes a long way in that direction. 

Only thing operating against this theory is the way these free agent deals have been constructed to push the money off of this year. It’s still possible that he has a major move in the works. In that case, all bets are off. 

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