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Heavy debate within Jets org about going DL or OL at #4?


jetstream23
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i just don't see the value in using the 4 pick for anything but an impact skill player.  that can include edge.  it can also include wr, db or even lb (needs to be second coming of LT).  not too sure about lb because the two guys they picked last season have yet to see meaningful minutes due to injury.

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5 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

 

Are Connor Hughes and I the only ones who think this was a joke Saleh was making with the media.  It means nothing, in my humble opinion.  We will see what they do on draft day.  Some of the overreactions to a comment that appears to have been made in jest are peak Jet Nation.

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3 hours ago, kmnj said:

joes rebuild is entering a rebuild already 

he has to draft ol and wr because his first and second pick on his first draft cant play /get on the field

 

 

Do you guys ever get tired of using the same lines?  Asking for Tom Shane.

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11 minutes ago, Lith said:

Are Connor Hughes and I the only ones who think this was a joke Saleh was making with the media.  It means nothing, in my humble opinion.  We will see what they do on draft day.  Some of the overreactions to a comment that appears to have been made in jest are peak Jet Nation.

I thought it was clearly a joke. Thank god for the JN mock draft. 

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5 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

Pretty ominous for Becton.

I think there is very little confidence in the long term for Becton. I'm sure they're hoping, but Jets are smart enough to know they need to plan for the worst. I hope he comes back strong and consistent, but it's a 50/50 or worst bet at this point.

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3 hours ago, kmnj said:

joes rebuild is entering a rebuild already 

he has to draft ol and wr because his first and second pick on his first draft cant play /get on the field

 

 

Thus the consequences of the 2020 draft . . . That sucker is going to be biting us for a while still.

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2 hours ago, OilfieldJet said:

It's just too much risk to rely on Becton. I want him to come back and play well the entire year. I want him to excel. He may not. And if not, we risk another year in not knowing if Wilson is the guy. I'm not worried about drafting past. We need to give Wilson 1) protection, and 2) weapons.

This is what it is all about. It seems infuriating that the Jets might draft OL high, again. But it might be what has to be done. You have to focus on the "right here and now," and make the best decisions for right now. Doesn't mean the fan base is not going to bring the torches, it just means you have to fix what needs fixed. Can't wait on the hope of Becton. 

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40 minutes ago, rangerous said:

i just don't see the value in using the 4 pick for anything but an impact skill player.  that can include edge.  it can also include wr, db or even lb (needs to be second coming of LT).  not too sure about lb because the two guys they picked last season have yet to see meaningful minutes due to injury.

In today's NFL, #4 pick should go first to QB, OT, or Edge. Next tier: Possibly use it on a no-brainer WR or CB.

There are always exceptions to rules, but we're the JETS, and we're not trusted to understand the rare exceptions. Stick to the formula.

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45 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It would be...if it was actually a fact. 

Just about to post some angry views on Douglas. Thanks for bring my blood pressure  down. Is it fact. We don't know.

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41 minutes ago, Lith said:

Are Connor Hughes and I the only ones who think this was a joke Saleh was making with the media.  It means nothing, in my humble opinion.  We will see what they do on draft day.  Some of the overreactions to a comment that appears to have been made in jest are peak Jet Nation.

 I think the joke was about the fist fight part but not necessarily that there could be a legitimate tough-o-war between DL and OL at #4.

And, Saleh isn't really giving anything away about the Draft even if he's being truthful.  Everyone knows JD prioritizes OL, everyone knows Saleh and the Jets want an Edge rusher somewhere early in this Draft, and almost everyone knows that at least 5 or 6 of the Top 10 prospects in this Draft seem to be offensive or defensive linemen.

The "smokescreen" here would be if the Jets actually went DB or WR at #4 in a Line-loaded Draft given the two guys occupying the Jets most senior football positions.

Saleh seems to play the good soldier with JD but there's little doubt he's salivating to get defenders in this Draft.  Not just because JD used every pick in the first 4 rounds last year on offense, but that outside of Reed and Whitehead (who are both good) the priorities in FA were obviously on offense when the Jets double-dipped at TE and signed a Pro Bowl OG..... and then tried to give away the farm for Tyreek Hill.  At some point Saleh has to be like, "dude, throw me a bone here!" lol

 

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32 minutes ago, 65 Toss Power Trap said:

I think there is very little confidence in the long term for Becton. I'm sure they're hoping, but Jets are smart enough to know they need to plan for the worst. I hope he comes back strong and consistent, but it's a 50/50 or worst bet at this point.

I really hope this guy works out.  When he is healthy and in-shape he has legit All Pro potential.  Few people at his size move the way he does.  It's just unbelievable.  But the problem is that Becton plays the single-most important position on O outside of QB.  I'd rather have him be only 90% as talented as he is if we could guarantee he plays at least 15 or 16 games each season.  We need consistency at LT more than we need someone who is better than Above Average.  JHMO.

Also, let me ask some really simple questions - Who do we think are the two starting OTs for this team in 12 months?  Are either of them on the roster right now for sure?  And, do you think JD would use a franchise tag on George Fant in a scenario where Becton flops again here in 2022 and Fant is the ONLY starting-caliber OT on the team come January 2023 with major leverage over the Jets?

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1 hour ago, Lith said:

Are Connor Hughes and I the only ones who think this was a joke Saleh was making with the media.  It means nothing, in my humble opinion.  We will see what they do on draft day.  Some of the overreactions to a comment that appears to have been made in jest are peak Jet Nation.

Nope. I said it too. On the first page of this thread...😁

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56 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Also, let me ask some really simple questions - Who do we think are the two starting OTs for this team in 12 months?  Are either of them on the roster right now for sure?  And, do you think JD would use a franchise tag on George Fant in a scenario where Becton flops again here in 2022 and Fant is the ONLY starting-caliber OT on the team come January 2023 with major leverage over the Jets?

The franchise tag for offensive line is 16.5 million per 

That's a huge raise from Fant current number. 

 

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It occurs to me that the same people who were condemning JD for signing Fant two year ago are the ones now saying Fant is our long-term solution at LT. The people who thought JD was absolutely crazy for paying him $9m a year (with an out after 2 years) two years ago now are fine with paying him probably $15m+ for at least 3 years. JD has been negotiating with Fant's agent; maybe he isn't willing to pay Fant the big bucks after one good season.

JD can both have faith in Becton AND draft another tackle at pick 4 because he is unwilling to bank on Fant for the long run.

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5 hours ago, Alka said:

Fant will be entering his final year of his deal.  I'm told they are working on a new deal, but a lot of time has eclipsed, and nothing has transpired in terms of a new deal, as far as I can tell.  Which tells me that the Jets might be okay with moving on from Fant if Fant doesn't want to accept what they think is fair, and Fant might want a big time contract.  My guess is Fant wants something in the line of what Tomlinson got, like a 3 year $40M deal.  My guess is the Jets are offering a 3 year $27M deal.  My guess is that both sides would be firm in their positions.  

If that's the case, then the Jets would be foolish not to draft a offensive tackle at #4.  First, without Moses from last season, the Jets don't have a legitimate backup if either Fant or Becton gets injured.  With Fant leaving after this season, the Jets would be scrambling once again to fill the spot vacated by Fant.  And what happens if Becton gets injured once again, even if he misses 4 or 5 games.  That is too much time to miss after the last 2 seasons, and would make the Jets seriously consider moving on from Becton and not giving him a new deal with Becton entering his 4th and final season after this coming season.

I think you're half-right here. I think there's some separation between the team and Fant on an extension BUT

1. If they could get him for the same deal as Tomlinson then it'd already be worked out. Fant's going to want north of $15MM even though he's only had one season to justify it (and is kind of one-dimensional, though better that than a one-dimensional run-blocker at LT)

2. Part of the problem may not be money, but that they're waiting for the draft. I hope it's not that, because if they don't take a tackle after day 1 then Fant's asking price instantly goes up $2MM/year if they're lucky. It would if I were him. 

3. He may be waiting to see if someone comes along to offer a pick for either one of his tackles, so he can shop one of them - just to see what he could get - without it leaking out that he initiated calls about it. Everyone knows the Jets' tackle situation and can plainly see they pick 4th, where at least one tackle will probably still be there. 

No way the Jets are merely offering the same $9MM/year they offered him when he wasn't even a starter yet, but rather someone Douglas gambled & hoped would be a starter. He was a 6th tackle/blocking TE with Seattle. Had his one chance to start at LT and blew his knee out. Then in 2019 he lost a camp competition to Ifedi for the RT job. I still think the contract was nuts, but just like I'd kill him for guessing wrong I have to give him credit for guessing right on the player. 

If they draft a tackle at #4 - and I really hope they don't - it'd be hard for them to keep both Becton & Fant just to put one of them (or the rookie) into a reserve role. Most likely they'd trade one of the two returning ones. Fan sentiment aside, I can see them moving on from either one if they did that. If Fant is already floating $20MM extensions it might be him. 

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1 hour ago, viffer said:

It occurs to me that the same people who were condemning JD for signing Fant two year ago are the ones now saying Fant is our long-term solution at LT. The people who thought JD was absolutely crazy for paying him $9m a year (with an out after 2 years) two years ago now are fine with paying him probably $15m+ for at least 3 years. JD has been negotiating with Fant's agent; maybe he isn't willing to pay Fant the big bucks after one good season.

JD can both have faith in Becton AND draft another tackle at pick 4 because he is unwilling to bank on Fant for the long run.

I agree although I am pretty certain that if we take a tackle, we are likely trading Becton (or Fant). We can't have all 3 on the roster week 1. We aren't good enough to have one of those guys end up being a backup. And if we keep Becton but he loses out to fant/rookie, then we have killed his trade value.

And since Becton is still cheap and has shown he can be a beast, at times, we can definitely get a nice haul of draft capital back for him. 

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7 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

I agree although I am pretty certain that if we take a tackle, we are likely trading Becton (or Fant). We can't have all 3 on the roster week 1. We aren't good enough to have one of those guys end up being a backup. And if we keep Becton but he loses out to fant/rookie, then we have killed his trade value.

And since Becton is still cheap and has shown he can be a beast, at times, we can definitely get a nice haul of draft capital back for him. 

I'm not so sure on the whole trade idea ... only way we trade one of the guys we have is after we draft his replacement, at which point you have reduced the trade value and you're in "take what you can get" territory. Doesn't seem like JD's MO to me.

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There is NO WAY JD passes on Ekwenu, who is for many a top 2/1 player in this draft, for Thib who could be a headcase.  If JD drafted better in 2021 he could take a chance in 2022.  He drafted two head cases in 2020, so he needs to basically pay up for a player whose head is screwed on straight.  

Because JD did not grab a WR in FA, which would have acquired some form of “overpay” that basically means he HAS TO pick a WR in the first round.  Listening to Move the Sticks, NFL GMs have figured out there price for WRs.  At least 6 will go in the first round, so even if 10 is high, there will be crumbs at 35.  That may mean an EDGE drops to 35, or that means that the first round will be EDGE and WR (which, based on FA pricing, is how it should be).  

 

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5 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

I think drafting a RT in Round 2 or 3, is feasible as I said above.  You certainly don't need to draft one in the 1st round, even if Tampa did with Wirfs and rode him to a Super Bowl.

Bernard Raimann in the 2nd. That's my fallback guy. 

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9 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Yeah.  
 

He’s not ready for OTAs?!?
 

But he can farmer walk with a bajillion pounds?  Just like he was running weeks before the end of the season.  Something isn’t adding up.  

I am a Becton believer but this development has me worried.
I’ll get excited when he posts combine style drills from his workouts. I need to see some kind of explosiveness to sign off on not drafting OL round 1.
I can carry 4-6 bags of groceries inside the house so I don’t have to take multiple trips. Thats gotta add up to about the same weight he posted, right? 🤷🏻‍♂️

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2 hours ago, viffer said:

It occurs to me that the same people who were condemning JD for signing Fant two year ago are the ones now saying Fant is our long-term solution at LT. The people who thought JD was absolutely crazy for paying him $9m a year (with an out after 2 years) two years ago now are fine with paying him probably $15m+ for at least 3 years. JD has been negotiating with Fant's agent; maybe he isn't willing to pay Fant the big bucks after one good season.

JD can both have faith in Becton AND draft another tackle at pick 4 because he is unwilling to bank on Fant for the long run.

I’m one of those people, but there’s good reason: he was a backup behind someone who sucked when we handed him that contract. Also being just slightly below average in 2020 - at RT - was not encouraging either. Huge surprise at LT a year later, after taking all summer to keep the RT job over Moses.

Very different situation a year later, and if he’s looking to extend Fant it should be before the draft. He passes on a tackle there and Fant’s demands should go up as it puts him in the driver’s seat. Plus one less piece to change is preferable, and anyway giving him 2 guaranteed seasons on an extension is really just one, since he’s not getting cut in this upcoming season that’s not guaranteed on paper but in practical terms it is. So it’d tie him to the Jets for 3 additional seasons, but the Jets to him for one additional season.

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35 minutes ago, varjet said:

There is NO WAY JD passes on Ekwenu, who is for many a top 2/1 player in this draft, for Thib who could be a headcase.  If JD drafted better in 2021 he could take a chance in 2022.  He drafted two head cases in 2020, so he needs to basically pay up for a player whose head is screwed on straight.  

Because JD did not grab a WR in FA, which would have acquired some form of “overpay” that basically means he HAS TO pick a WR in the first round.  Listening to Move the Sticks, NFL GMs have figured out there price for WRs.  At least 6 will go in the first round, so even if 10 is high, there will be crumbs at 35.  That may mean an EDGE drops to 35, or that means that the first round will be EDGE and WR (which, based on FA pricing, is how it should be).  

 

I don’t know. I’d be outright surprised if he took him, even if he’s right there, unless he’s already decided he’s not extending Fant. 

It’s not like edge, where they can all still play and rotate in all season. He takes an OT at 4 then he’s trading one of them or he’s putting a starter on the bench, and Douglas surely knows this.

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think you're half-right here. I think there's some separation between the team and Fant on an extension BUT

1. If they could get him for the same deal as Tomlinson then it'd already be worked out. Fant's going to want north of $15MM even though he's only had one season to justify it (and is kind of one-dimensional, though better that than a one-dimensional run-blocker at LT)

2. Part of the problem may not be money, but that they're waiting for the draft. I hope it's not that, because if they don't take a tackle after day 1 then Fant's asking price instantly goes up $2MM/year if they're lucky. It would if I were him. 

3. He may be waiting to see if someone comes along to offer a pick for either one of his tackles, so he can shop one of them - just to see what he could get - without it leaking out that he initiated calls about it. Everyone knows the Jets' tackle situation and can plainly see they pick 4th, where at least one tackle will probably still be there. 

No way the Jets are merely offering the same $9MM/year they offered him when he wasn't even a starter yet, but rather someone Douglas gambled & hoped would be a starter. He was a 6th tackle/blocking TE with Seattle. Had his one chance to start at LT and blew his knee out. Then in 2019 he lost a camp competition to Ifedi for the RT job. I still think the contract was nuts, but just like I'd kill him for guessing wrong I have to give him credit for guessing right on the player. 

If they draft a tackle at #4 - and I really hope they don't - it'd be hard for them to keep both Becton & Fant just to put one of them (or the rookie) into a reserve role. Most likely they'd trade one of the two returning ones. Fan sentiment aside, I can see them moving on from either one if they did that. If Fant is already floating $20MM extensions it might be him. 

I can't disagree with anything you said.  However, Becton needs to show he can play a full 17 games in one season before I trade away my backup.  I would rather keep Fant as a $9M backup for one season, then risk having no backups if Becton gets hurt again.  Better yet, if Becton does get hurt, and it's his time to go, then you can pay Fant what is the going rate for him to stay, and trade Becton for whatever you can get.  

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1 minute ago, Alka said:

I can't disagree with anything you said.  However, Becton needs to show he can play a full 17 games in one season before I trade away my backup.  I would rather keep Fant as a $9M backup for one season, then risk having no backups if Becton gets hurt again.  Better yet, if Becton does get hurt, and it's his time to go, then you can pay Fant what is the going rate for him to stay, and trade Becton for whatever you can get.  

My point is more that neither is just a backup after drafting a tackle at #4.

Each of the three is either too valuable or too expensive (or both) to simply bench because we acquired too many starting LTs.

One would get traded, or more likely, they simply would draft a starting position they actually need instead of just insurance.

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6 hours ago, jamesr said:

Should we draft a QB at #4 or #10 because Zach missed multiple games this year? (Hypothetical question, I know we won't, but the argument is kind of the same).

I have an answer for you, but you're not going to like it!

The answer is that if Zach missed multiple games this year, his backup is someone who won a Super Bowl.  His name is Joe Flacco, and the reason that the Jets traded a 6th round pick for him last year is for exactly the reason that the Jets don't need to draft a QB at #10 or in the second round.

To add other reasons to the argument, the Jets have a starting offensive tackle who missed most of the entirety of last season with an injury, although only expected to miss 4-8 games, missed 13 or 15 games. (something like that).  The year before, he missed a good amount of time for injuries, and right now, the confidence in him playing an entire season is low, even if the jets wont openly admit it.  

The purpose of solidifying the tackle position is to protect your quarterback from getting killed, and missing significant time due to injury.  You don't draft a QB to protect your offensive tackle, you draft a offensive tackle to protect your most valuable player, the QB.

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20 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

My point is more that neither is just a backup after drafting a tackle at #4.

Each of the three is either too valuable or too expensive (or both) to simply bench because we acquired too many starting LTs.

One would get traded, or more likely, they simply would draft a starting position they actually need instead of just insurance.

I hate all of this hypothesizing.  You may very well be right.  I just can't wait for the draft, and then we will have all of the answers.  

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All the guys that are ripping Douglas for taking another tackle in the first round are the same guys that will be calling for him to be fired for going into the season with only Edoga & McDermott as backups if Becton or Fant were to go down with a serious injury.   

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