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Carolina “forced” to take a QB at 6


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16 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Everyone knows the top 3 in this draft will be Edge or OL. The Jets are not taking a QB. That leaves the Giants. I think it's  possible but doubtful. They have so many holes, I doubt  a rookie QB is the way they go. Probably will take an OL. Pick six is safe to take the QB of their choice. 

Unless another team that needs a QB tries to trade up ahead of Carolina. That is what drives the market for a trade down.  

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5 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Unless another team that needs a QB tries to trade up ahead of Carolina. That is what drives the market for a trade down.  

I don't  see the Jets as the team they will deal with. That woukd be that other NY team. 

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3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

The six pick for Mike White. Make the call, Douglas

Oh my goodness think about what you are saying. If that happens you would shrivel up like a raisin. Like the stuff I dig out from my toe nails.. I would hate to think of you as that. Thank goodness I keep up on my hygiene that way I can always think about you.

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The problem is that the teams who are really within striking distance AND need a QB are teams that absolutely hate trading with Joe Douglas, the Panthers and Seahawks.  We really, really need to see JD setup some type of bidding war by putting a call into Carolina and letting the Panthers know he's on the phone with a team that's coming up from behind them for a QB, do they want to move up to #4 instead?

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5 hours ago, Maynard13 said:

They should just sign Newton, Jamarques Russell and Tim Couch and rotate them with Darnold every quarter. Go 0-17 and take Bryce Young next year. 

They just need Darnold and Luke Falk to make that happen.  Falk being there, of course, because Darnold is a soft b*tch and a lock to miss at least 4 games for something.  

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32 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@genot @Pac @Nico @QB1 QB1 @neckdemon @Peace Frog @BornJetsFan1983

 

 

I think we just thought that with actual coaching that he could be better and grow into the QB we wanted. He went to panthers (do they have good coaching?) And for a few games looked great. Alas darnold gase training came in and well you know....

I was wrong about darnold I really thought he could turn it around. Maybe with good coaching he might have  but some times life ain't fair and you just have play the hand your given. 

Too bad for him really. But man he should have been able with that talent to do more. Gase really screwed him over. Ruined his career in my humble opinion. He was a good kid. And never trashed the team....other than on the field 

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6 hours ago, Anthony Jet said:

Or maybe that’s what they want people to think and are in fact taking a QB, but trying to throw people off the trail by actually saying it, making people think they are bluffing when they aren’t

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Mark Wahlberg Reaction GIF by 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment

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Best strategy for the Panthers - IMHO - is to build the team up around the QB position this year (OL especially) and position yourself to draft a guy next year (or trade / FA etc). This way you can have the situation of new coach, new QB, nicely aligned for a proper reset.

Of course, the GM himself could also get jettisoned, which makes it unlikely that this will happen. Which is the conundrum of drafting for the best interests of the team vs. drafting to try to save your own job.

 

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5 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@genot @Pac @Nico @QB1 @neckdemon @Peace Frog @BornJetsFan1983 @philc  @Biggs @NYJ1 and, I’m surprised to have discovered retroactively… @Barry McCockinner

 

Yea I wanted to keep Darnold and take a guy like Ja'Maar Chase or trade down and stockpile because I thought it made sense to build the team and we could take a QB this year if Darnold continued to flail. Hoping Wilson works out though.

Obviously I was wrong about Darnold although I do wonder if he could have played as well as the rest of the non-rookie QB's on our roster when Wilson was out.

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12 hours ago, oatmeal said:

How that plan work out in Chicago? 

When you trade up for Mitch Trubisky with Mahomes and Watson on the board, you are living on borrowed time.  I'm amazed they gave him 4 more years.  Despite all that, I think the move for Fields was actually a good one.

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13 hours ago, JTJet said:

It's funny people take things like this seriously lol.

Clearly they are trying to scare another team to jump them and take a QB in front of them, forcing a player they actually want to possibly slide to them. 

If they don't draft a qb this year that saves their asses, they're gone. They're absolutely going to draft a qb this year, they're on the hot seat and know it, only way they save themselves is by a rookie qb showing promise.

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1 hour ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Yea I wanted to keep Darnold and take a guy like Ja'Maar Chase or trade down and stockpile because I thought it made sense to build the team and we could take a QB this year if Darnold continued to flail. Hoping Wilson works out though.

Obviously I was wrong about Darnold although I do wonder if he could have played as well as the rest of the non-rookie QB's on our roster when Wilson was out.

I'm sure you agree that surrendering the 2nd and 4th round picks we received for Darnold to find that out would not have been worth it.

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35 minutes ago, artemusclyde said:

If they don't draft a qb this year that saves their asses, they're gone. They're absolutely going to draft a qb this year, they're on the hot seat and know it, only way they save themselves is by a rookie qb showing promise.

Yeah, but if that's the case, the GM shouldnt be blasting it to every ear around. It just signals to other GMs that they know they need to move in front of you to get one themselves, which in turn screws you.

So why would he say it? 

 

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6 hours ago, Dwight Englewood said:

That’s wierd they could simply trade a 6th round pick for Baker the all pro?

Can anyone explain why this isnt the easiest decision in the world for carolina?

They have enough cap space to absorb Bakers contract.  Cleveland would be sending him to the NFC (not that it really matters but better then sending him to the steelers).  They would have no guaranteed money going to Darnold OR Baker after this year giving them some flexibility and they will be giving Baker a decent team around him.  They could draft a good OL at 6 and have a prett good shot at a real evaluation of Baker.  

Seems a hell of a lot smarter then taking Malki Willis (who I like) since he isnt ready to play.

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18 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Can anyone explain why this isnt the easiest decision in the world for carolina?

They have enough cap space to absorb Bakers contract.  Cleveland would be sending him to the NFC (not that it really matters but better then sending him to the steelers).  They would have no guaranteed money going to Darnold OR Baker after this year giving them some flexibility and they will be giving Baker a decent team around him.  They could draft a good OL at 6 and have a prett good shot at a real evaluation of Baker.  

Seems a hell of a lot smarter then taking Malki Willis (who I like) since he isnt ready to play.

I mean, Baker kind of had a good amount of time, with a pretty darn good team around him, to be 'evaluated'. Why would Carolina trade for him, even if its only a 6th rounder, and invest a chunk of salary cap when they might very much feel (as probably most GMs) that he is NOT the answer. They just did this with Darnold and it did not work out. They have an opportunity to draft a stud QB (some feel like he is stud) and have him sit for a year behind Darnold before starting him- while as you said, they continue improving the team.  

Not 'the easiest decision in the world' IMO. 

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21 minutes ago, PepPep said:

I mean, Baker kind of had a good amount of time, with a pretty darn good team around him, to be 'evaluated'. Why would Carolina trade for him, even if its only a 6th rounder, and invest a chunk of salary cap when they might very much feel (as probably most GMs) that he is NOT the answer. They just did this with Darnold and it did not work out. They have an opportunity to draft a stud QB (some feel like he is stud) and have him sit for a year behind Darnold before starting him- while as you said, they continue improving the team.  

Not 'the easiest decision in the world' IMO. 

He did, and it seems like when he had a decent coach and wasnt hurt was a pretty good QB.  

But the bigger reason is that Tepper is worth $16 billion, so if he needs to eat $18 million of real dollars to get a year to evaluate baker in their own building its worth it.  As for the cap, if there was someone else they could spend on, that would be different but FA is over and they have no one else to spend on, so its really only a dollars issue vs cap space.  

Plus, to your point, they could still draft Malik and then potentially franchise baker and use him as a trade piece if they want to start Malik in 2023.  

Basically my point is that they could increase their options/chance of finding a real starting QB for money only.

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Amazing that people are still on the "Jets ruined him" train.

I'd say the "we ruined _______" that I've been reading here for over a decade is just lazy thinking, but no.

What it is is much simpler: even if it comes after admitting one was wrong, adding this is tantamount to saying, "...except I was never actually wrong in the first place; it was the Jets that made my correct analysis look wrong."

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Players who suck can find themselves in bad situations -- situations that can't even mask their suck for awhile.

Some guys are good enough, some are not. If it's all about the team not the player, then they'll just start showing how great they could've been once they're on new teams where others succeeded. It's always easy to spot it when someone's on a good team and doesn't pan out, but the same person on a lousy team would have that excuse. And for those initial believers, you won't convince them otherwise. Not really.

  • Mason Rudolph on the Steelers = he sucks. Mason Rudolph if he'd been on the Jets = the Jets ruined him.
  • Josh Rosen on the Cardinals (and then Miami) = he sucks. If Darnold was off the board & the Jets had drafted Josh Rosen at #3? Another great prospect not just wasted on the Jets, but permanently ruined by being here.
  • Jordan Love on the Packers = yeesh, he's failing on the same team that's good enough for Rodgers to still look like the best passer ever. Jordan Love if drafted by the Jets = Jets ruined him.
  • Drew Lock on the Broncos...maybe it was the team. Then King Boring himself - Teddy Bridgewater - comes in and completes 2/3 of his passes with more than a 2:1 TD:INT ratio. Bridgewater was meh the prior year; then they go to Sam Darnold and you see how much worse than meh he actually is. 
  • Mark Sanchez would've been a below average QB on any/every team. Ditto Geno Smith, Bryce Petty, Kellen Clemens, and Sam Darnold. They just weren't good. I can sympathize with wanting a closer or a bit-longer look when they're still young, but that's not the same as saying they surely would've actually been good otherwise, and were merely held back by being on the Jets. If we don't see major improvement from Wilson this year - even if he's still an unfinished product after just two seasons - then you can probably add him to that list, too.

Best part of the permanently ruined take is it is self-servingly irrefutable. If he sucked for us and then sucked elsewhere, then it's still the Jets' fault and - absent his identical twin also sucking in a great situation - the excuse can never die.

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8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Players who suck can find themselves in bad situations -- situations that can't even mask their suck for awhile.

Some guys are good enough, some are not. If it's all about the team not the player, then they'll just start showing how great they could've been once they're on new teams where others succeeded. It's always easy to spot it when someone's on a good team and doesn't pan out, but the same person on a lousy team would have that excuse. And for those initial believers, you won't convince them otherwise. Not really.

  • Mason Rudolph on the Steelers = he sucks. Mason Rudolph if he'd been on the Jets = the Jets ruined him.
  • Josh Rosen on the Cardinals (and then Miami) = he sucks. If Darnold was off the board & the Jets had drafted Josh Rosen at #3? Another great prospect not just wasted on the Jets, but permanently ruined by being here.
  • Jordan Love on the Packers = yeesh, he's failing on the same team that's good enough for Rodgers to still look like the best passer ever. Jordan Love if drafted by the Jets = Jets ruined him.
  • Drew Lock on the Broncos...maybe it was the team. Then King Boring himself - Teddy Bridgewater - comes in and completes 2/3 of his passes with more than a 2:1 TD:INT ratio. Bridgewater was meh the prior year; then they go to Sam Darnold and you see how much worse than meh he actually is. 
  • Mark Sanchez would've been a below average QB on any/every team. Ditto Geno Smith, Bryce Petty, Kellen Clemens, and Sam Darnold. They just weren't good. I can sympathize with wanting a closer or a bit-longer look when they're still young, but that's not the same as saying they surely would've actually been good otherwise, and were merely held back by being on the Jets. If we don't see major improvement from Wilson this year - even if he's still an unfinished product after just two seasons - then you can probably add him to that list, too.

 


tl;dr version:  Sam Darnold was a bad QB on a bad team.  

@BornJetsFan1983 

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Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Players who suck can find themselves in bad situations -- situations that can't even mask their suck for awhile.

Some guys are good enough, some are not. If it's all about the team not the player, then they'll just start showing how great they could've been once they're on new teams where others succeeded. It's always easy to spot it when someone's on a good team and doesn't pan out, but the same person on a lousy team would have that excuse. And for those initial believers, you won't convince them otherwise. Not really.

  • Mason Rudolph on the Steelers = he sucks. Mason Rudolph if he'd been on the Jets = the Jets ruined him.
  • Josh Rosen on the Cardinals (and then Miami) = he sucks. If Darnold was off the board & the Jets had drafted Josh Rosen at #3? Another great prospect not just wasted on the Jets, but permanently ruined by being here.
  • Jordan Love on the Packers = yeesh, he's failing on the same team that's good enough for Rodgers to still look like the best passer ever. Jordan Love if drafted by the Jets = Jets ruined him.
  • Drew Lock on the Broncos...maybe it was the team. Then King Boring himself - Teddy Bridgewater - comes in and completes 2/3 of his passes with more than a 2:1 TD:INT ratio. Bridgewater was meh the prior year; then they go to Sam Darnold and you see how much worse than meh he actually is. 
  • Mark Sanchez would've been a below average QB on any/every team. Ditto Geno Smith, Bryce Petty, Kellen Clemens, and Sam Darnold. They just weren't good. I can sympathize with wanting a closer or a bit-longer look when they're still young, but that's not the same as saying they surely would've actually been good otherwise, and were merely held back by being on the Jets. If we don't see major improvement from Wilson this year - even if he's still an unfinished product after just two seasons - then you can probably add him to that list, too.

If they're actually serious NFL QBs simply in a bad/challenging initial situation?

  • You'd still see Tannehill throwing for ~4000 yds and dozens of TDs per year, and then when he gets away from the one who "ruined" him he goes right back to those numbers.
  • Or, once he gets out of that initial, uniquely awful situation, then Alex Smith goes from all-time bust into a competent QB throwing more TDs than picks, and then into a pro bowl QB as one of the game's best game managers (if also its most boring, but that's kinda what a game manager is).
  • Drew Brees? Another example: if they're actually good, and are merely late bloomers, then they're not ruined.

your logic is flawed from your big Gase boner.

We say Sam got ruined because his play actually regressed from his rookie season where he showed great instinct and playmaking ability as a rookie - well at least above average rookie qb play with very limited off weapons and the most baisc of off game planning to being absolutely terrible under Gase where he was running for his life and had even worse game plans lacking even the most basic concept of winning. Under bowls he was ok if not better than expected. Your comps are not really comps they are as you put just put arguable the worst/bad Qb's. Hell Sanchez who had the most success of them all and was just our Rex Grossman, the team pulled him to line and he just let the team down when it mattered, sorry not sorry.

Tanny sucked under gase because of gase, so would have bree's. Darnold still showed from time to time plays that were good when he was able to go off script. Sorry you just repeating your own version of history with sam will not change the fact that he great potential and his poor play and decision making was direct result of getting the crap beat out of him over and over and never getting adequate coaching to develop, in fairness no one on the team had any adequate coaching so it was not just him, but he regressed and everything learned under gase was detrimental to Danold. THen influx tons of talent on the panthers and the game plan got him through a few game but his learned bad habits and technique showed, thus dooming his career and showing he was ruined. 

 

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:


tl;dr version:  Sam Darnold was a bad QB on a bad team.  

@BornJetsFan1983 

No, no, that's the point -- it's that some still say he was an otherwise good QB who was just saddled with being on a bad team. 

Also gfy giving a tl;dr version of my post. They are all works of art by definition. What you're doing is like cutting off a poem after 3 words.

I'm casting pearls before swine here.

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2 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

your logic is flawed from your big Gase boner.

We say Sam got ruined because his play actually regressed from his rookie season where he showed great instinct and playmaking ability as a rookie - well at least above average rookie qb play with very limited off weapons and the most baisc of off game planning to being absolutely terrible under Gase where he was running for his life and had even worse game plans lacking even the most basic concept of winning. Under bowls he was ok if not better than expected. Your comps are not really comps they are as you put just put arguable the worst/bad Qb's. Hell Sanchez who had the most success of them all and was just our Rex Grossman, the team pulled him to line and he just let the team down when it mattered, sorry not sorry.

Tanny sucked under gase because of gase, so would have bree's. Darnold still showed from time to time plays that were good when he was able to go off script. Sorry you just repeating your own version of history with sam will not change the fact that he great potential and his poor play and decision making was direct result of getting the crap beat out of him over and over and never getting adequate coaching to develop, in fairness no one on the team had any adequate coaching so it was not just him, but he regressed and everything learned under gase was detrimental to Danold. THen influx tons of talent on the panthers and the game plan got him through a few game but his learned bad habits and technique showed, thus dooming his career and showing he was ruined. 

 


Sam Darnold was the 32nd ranked QB his rookie year.  

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Sam Darnold also led all of FBS in turnovers his final year at USC.  His footwork was so bad, one scout called him “undraftable” and a “cow on skates”.

Gase ruined him in college too, apparently, in BJF1983’s world.

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