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I'm confused If the Jets select Sauce Gardener at #4. Can someone please explain this to me?


Alka
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7 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

How is CB not a need though?   Look, Edge and CB are the most valuable positions on defense and you need multiple players at each position.   Corner is hardley a stacked position right now.   If Thibs or Hutchinson are available you can make the case for those guys as well, but to discount Gardner because there is this false sense of security with the CB position would be beyond foolish on JD’s part.   

It's a spot where they can improve no doubt.  but I'm not sure I'd call CB a need at this point.  That said, obviously Gardner gets penciled in as your #1 if he's drafted, and the CB room is better as a whole.

Personally, I'd rather see them address edge and WR in the first, baring any rumored trades coming to fruition. I think having Berrios as the #3 and Lawson as your only true starting edge rusher are bigger needs to address.  Unless Gardner is heads and shoulders above the DL/WR prospects available to us, that's where I'd probably go.

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Relax, 

the pick won’t be a corner.

It’ll  be a DE or a tackle.

The DE needs to really be a consensus, everyone is on board, this guy is a can’t miss, game-changer choice. 

I don’t know if they’ve decided who that guy is a of yet. And that’s hoping he’s there at 4.

The tackle pick might be a bit more surprising seeing that we supposedly have our 2 “starters “

But with Becton’s health history, a viable backup is necessary. Is a rookie that guy?? 

Then there’s Fant. If the man has another good year, he’ll be slated to be one of the top free agents next year. Fant just might want to bet on himself and not sign an extension and test the market. That leaves our GM selecting next year’s everyday tackle starter this year.

 

If not….

TRADE DOWN!

 

 

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Jets passing D last year.  15th rank in pass attempts against.  30th in passing yards.  30th in Int's.  29th in Net Yards per attempt.  

Let's assume Zach is going to be an elite QB.  Let's assume Becton is going to be a high quality Tackle and our OL is now good to very good after FA.   Let's assume we have 2 first round picks and 4 in the first 38 picks.    Why wouldn't you take the arguably the best most elite defender in this draft who actually might be available at 4?  Plus he's nickname is Sauce.   

AFC is loaded with QB's and WR.  Unless Jizz Johnson is available at 4 there's a very solid argument for Sauce.

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2 minutes ago, CanadienJetsFan said:

Relax, 

the pick won’t be a corner.

It’ll  be a DE or a tackle.

The DE needs to really be a consensus, everyone is on board, this guy is a can’t miss, game-changer choice. 

I don’t know if they’ve decided who that guy is a of yet. And that’s hoping he’s there at 4.

The tackle pick might be a bit more surprising seeing that we supposedly have our 2 “starters “

But with Becton’s health history, a viable backup is necessary. Is a rookie that guy?? 

Then there’s Fant. If the man has another good year, he’ll be slated to be one of the top free agents next year. Fant just might want to bet on himself and not sign an extension and test the market. That leaves our GM selecting next year’s everyday tackle starter this year.

 

If not….

TRADE DOWN!

 

 

Have you seen this franchises inept draft history?  It’s a lock we take a JAG DB over Thibodeaux.  Absolutely lock

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Just now, Biggs said:

Jets passing D last year.  15th rank in pass attempts against.  30th in passing yards.  30th in Int's.  29th in Net Yards per attempt.  

Let's assume Zach is going to be an elite QB.  Let's assume Becton is going to be a high quality Tackle and our OL is now good to very good after FA.   Let's assume we have 2 first round picks and 4 in the first 38 picks.    Why wouldn't you take the arguably the best most elite defender in this draft who actually might be available at 4?  Plus he's nickname is Sauce.   

AFC is loaded with QB's and WR.  Unless Jizz Johnson is available at 4 there's a very solid argument for Sauce.

Because qb pressure helps your secondary and we can easily upgrade the CB position in rounds 2-7 and free agency

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1 minute ago, Dwight Englewood said:

Have you seen this franchises inept draft history?  It’s a lock we take a JAG DB over Thibodeaux.  Absolutely lock

If Thibs is there at 4, I’ll faint and miss who picks him. 

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Just now, Maynard13 said:

If Thibs is there at 4, I’ll faint and miss who picks him. 

JD gonna draft a safety or corner over the best edge rusher in the draft.  Book it and then boo it in October when the season is already over and the entire world is laughing at us again

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25 minutes ago, Dwight Englewood said:

Because qb pressure helps your secondary and we can easily upgrade the CB position in rounds 2-7 and free agency

True. But if Thibs and Hutch are gone then Sauce makes sense. But your point is well taken. There are other cb’s that are very good in this draft in round two that should be available. I mean I could really see Saleh convincing JD to wait until round 4/5 and grab Marcus Jones. JD drafted like 20 db’s late in 2021 draft. Ya can’t have enuf db’s. 💁🏻‍♂️

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26 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

The game has changed dudes, offensive schemes and the reffing and the league has changed.

The days of Revis island are much less than they once were and the value of CBs' is lower than it used to be.

Having a high end CB is still nice but not the advantage it once was.

Yea the game has definitely changed but dudes like Revis don't come around often. Even when they do, you have to pair them with a coordinator who is willing to do stuff like Rex was to get the type of results we saw. I think you could still build a very strong -> dominant defense around a guy that is truly of that caliber locking down #1's all by himself. It baffled QB's and shrunk the field for the defense.

I don't know if Sauce is that dude or if Saleh & company would take advantage of that dude though.

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1 minute ago, Maynard13 said:

True. But if Thibs and Hutch are gone then Sauce makes sense. But your point is well taken. There are other cb’s that are very good in this draft in round to that should be available. I mean I could really see Saleh convincing JD to wait until round 4/5 and grab Marcus Jones. JD drafted like 20 db’s late in 2021 draft. Ya can’t have enuf db’s. 💁🏻‍♂️

If Thibs and hutch are both gone I’d draft the Willis kid and then hold Carolina (and probably 1-2 other teams) hostage

 

Thibs is getting the S beaten out of him by the media right now so I think he’s there at 4

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5 minutes ago, Dwight Englewood said:

JD gonna draft a safety or corner over the best edge rusher in the draft.  Book it and then boo it in October when the season is already over and the entire world is laughing at us again

Nah ain’t no way Jose, I mean Dwight

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Just now, Barry McCockinner said:

Yea the game has definitely changed but dudes like Revis don't come around often. Even when they do, you have to pair them with a coordinator who is willing to do stuff like Rex was to get the type of results we saw. I think you could still build a very strong -> dominant defense around a guy that is truly of that caliber locking down #1's all by himself.

I don't know if Sauce is that dude or if Saleh & company would take advantage of that dude though.

Revis was a generational CB, those guys don’t grow in trees

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Just now, Dwight Englewood said:

If Thibs and hutch are both gone I’d draft the Willis kid and then hold Carolina (and probably 1-2 other teams) hostage

 

Thibs is getting the S beaten out of him by the media right now so I think he’s there at 4

Ehhhh media are piranhas. Teams don’t listen to that garbage. 

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21 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Jets passing D last year.  15th rank in pass attempts against.  30th in passing yards.  30th in Int's.  29th in Net Yards per attempt.  

Let's assume Zach is going to be an elite QB.  Let's assume Becton is going to be a high quality Tackle and our OL is now good to very good after FA.   Let's assume we have 2 first round picks and 4 in the first 38 picks.    Why wouldn't you take the arguably the best most elite defender in this draft who actually might be available at 4?  Plus he's nickname is Sauce.   

AFC is loaded with QB's and WR.  Unless Jizz Johnson is available at 4 there's a very solid argument for Sauce.

I think Lloyd would have a bigger impact on our defense than Sauce. He’s like a flying hyena. Beat the Eagles to the punch JD. 

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NFL teams play Nickel about 70% of the time, so the top 3 corners on the team will be on the field 70%.

The Jets currently do a heavy rotation on the D Line, most starters are only out there about 50-60% of the time. 

You could argue a corner would be on the field more than a D Lineman.  You could also argue that there are always injuries, it is very unlikely that both current starting corners play all 17 games.  

You could also the Jets pass rush sucks, so they really need a pass rusher.  Or that the Jets WR are mediocre at best, and they need a WR.   You can further argue that of their top 2 tackles, 1 has been frequently injured, the other is over 30 and on the last year of his contract, therefor drafting a tackle makes sense.

Basically, don't draft a freakin safety.

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Let's say the first three picks are Hutch, Walker and Thib, and the Jets feel good about Becton and Fant.

Do they take Ekwenu?  The probably should.  But he may not make a difference this year.  JD may be worried about his job.

If he puts Sauce in this defense, it is alot better, and he would not be reaching as much as if he picked JJ or Karlaftis.

That does put the pressure at 10 to pick the EDGE.  

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picking Sause at 4 is as bad as picking an OL at 4

he would most likely replace Hall since the FA will start and MC2 played all year very well in the slot. how much of an improvement is Gardner over Hall? not much.

even if Gardner puts there #1 WR on a island the QB will just throw to someone else. and he will have all day to do it. thats why Edge has to be the pick at 4. we put pressure on no one.

and is anyone concerned that he played at Cincy? i haven't watch college in decades but he didnt play against any power house top competition. 

Miami ohio, Temple, Tulsa, Murray st, East Carolina, USF, Tulane, Navy, UCF. thats not top teams. he wasnt facing the best. he might not be the slam dunk everyone thinks.

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2 hours ago, Alka said:

The Jets invested in the draft in 2020 in Bryce Hall by picking him in the 5th round.  He is a young guy, who I think has proven himself, and needs to continue to have playing time to develop to his fullest capabilities.  In 2021, the Jets invested draft capital in Michael Carter II and Echols, both cornerbacks, and both who have shown promise, and need playing time to continue with their development.  Then, this offseason, the Jets signed DJ Reed from the Seahawks, and rewarded him with a 3 year, $33,000,000.00 contract to start at cornerback.

So now, we have 2 cornerback positions, and 4 players who will make this team. DJ Reed is a proven starter, and the other 3 young guys, have proven that they need to be on the field to continue their development.  

If the Jets select Sauce at #4, then he will need to be an instant starter on this defense, opposite DJ Reed.  Surely and upgrade over the other 3 guys we have, but still, players who you want to have the opportunity to play.  

It just doesn't seem to be enough of a need to use the 4th overall pick on a cornerback, who will rob the opportunities from the other 3 players who you invested a lot into already.  After all, Sauce, as great as he may be, does not improve the pass rush, or significantly upgrade the run defense in my view.

I'm looking for someone to explain to me how I'm not seeing this correctly.

 

Hall late round guy but is a CB2 in the NFL, stock was hurt i believe due to injury and was really graded a 2nd rounder in the draft. So we got a steal, really it was risky but paid off.  

Carter and Echols are CB3 or 4 types...

CB1 Hall

CB2 CARTER

CB 3 Echols

well that is not that good but our system we dont need a legit number 1 lock down guy because of the scheme. Well add in Reed who is a bonafind CB1 in this league, our new Rundown is 

CB1 Reed, CB2 Hall, CB3 Carter, CB3 Echiols - that is a hell of a lot better and better than we need to run our def. 

The sauce arguments make no sense. It silly to take that guy at 4, a waste really.

Now add a depth guy in 2nd or later rounds sure all day. Probably a good idea. But sauce, no thanks!

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al davis used to build his teams starting with the corners.  i'm not saying that's the only way but a corner like revis can do a lot because he can shut down about a quarter of the field.  not saying sauce is the second coming of revis but these guys can be special and take quite a bit of pressure off of the dline.

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42 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Hall late round guy but is a CB2 in the NFL, stock was hurt i believe due to injury and was really graded a 2nd rounder in the draft. So we got a steal, really it was risky but paid off.  

Carter and Echols are CB3 or 4 types...

CB1 Hall

CB2 CARTER

CB 3 Echols

well that is not that good but our system we dont need a legit number 1 lock down guy because of the scheme. Well add in Reed who is a bonafind CB1 in this league, our new Rundown is 

CB1 Reed, CB2 Hall, CB3 Carter, CB3 Echiols - that is a hell of a lot better and better than we need to run our def. 

The sauce arguments make no sense. It silly to take that guy at 4, a waste really.

Now add a depth guy in 2nd or later rounds sure all day. Probably a good idea. But sauce, no thanks!

1.  Hall is vastly overrated by this board IMO.  He has done well, but I don't think they have asked him to do much.  When the did he wasn't super successful - mainly I just remember Pitts, but there were other times. His pff grade was 63.  I get that pff isn't the be all, end all but pff describes their grades like this:  100-90 elite, 89-85 pro bowl, 84-70 starter, 69-60 backup, 59-0 replaceable.  FWIW, Carter was 53 and Echols 45.  Ouch.  People are going to say that pff is meaningless, but if the pass D sucked and the grading sucked, why do people think our CB situation doesn't suck? 

2. I am not so sure that Reed is a bonafide CB1.  The Seahawks certainly questioned it, which is why they made him a "disrespectful" offer.  They are ready to roll with Tre Brown, Artie Burns and Sidney Jones.  I guess to be fair, pff loves Reed.  He is also pretty darn short.  I like the signing, but I don't think he fixes our pass D by himself. 

3.  If you believe that Gardner is one of the top players in the draft, you take him.  If you think he is a great player and don't feel that way about the others, he's your guy.  It is never a waste to take a great player.  I would say the same about the Olinemen.  Yes we have a heavy investment in 2 tackles and 2 guards, but if you think Neal or Okonwu are the real deal and don't like Gardner or the others, go for it.  You don't just reach for and edge because you need an edge, especially since it could be the deepest position in this draft.

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4 hours ago, Alka said:

The Jets invested in the draft in 2020 in Bryce Hall by picking him in the 5th round.  He is a young guy, who I think has proven himself, and needs to continue to have playing time to develop to his fullest capabilities.  In 2021, the Jets invested draft capital in Michael Carter II and Echols, both cornerbacks, and both who have shown promise, and need playing time to continue with their development.  Then, this offseason, the Jets signed DJ Reed from the Seahawks, and rewarded him with a 3 year, $33,000,000.00 contract to start at cornerback.

So now, we have 2 cornerback positions, and 4 players who will make this team. DJ Reed is a proven starter, and the other 3 young guys, have proven that they need to be on the field to continue their development.  

If the Jets select Sauce at #4, then he will need to be an instant starter on this defense, opposite DJ Reed.  Surely and upgrade over the other 3 guys we have, but still, players who you want to have the opportunity to play.  

It just doesn't seem to be enough of a need to use the 4th overall pick on a cornerback, who will rob the opportunities from the other 3 players who you invested a lot into already.  After all, Sauce, as great as he may be, does not improve the pass rush, or significantly upgrade the run defense in my view.

I'm looking for someone to explain to me how I'm not seeing this correctly.

 

There are rumors teams were targeting Hall because "they knew he wouldn't intercept the ball" - this is according to DJ Bieniemy so take it with a grain of salt.

 

I believe Reed was brought in to be CB1, the length of his contract implies that depending on how Hall developers we will be able to choose between the 2 of them and who to resign after 2 years. Sauce by contrast would be the guy here beyond those two.

 

The only reason he is in the discussion is because of his freakish traits, stellar college career, and us holding #10. In theory we can still land an elite edge with either 4 or 10 allowing us to upgrade the secondary as well. The thought may be something along the lines of Trade Down/Edge/Sauce

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9 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

1.  Hall is vastly overrated by this board IMO.  He has done well, but I don't think they have asked him to do much.  When the did he wasn't super successful - mainly I just remember Pitts, but there were other times. His pff grade was 63.  I get that pff isn't the be all, end all but pff describes their grades like this:  100-90 elite, 89-85 pro bowl, 84-70 starter, 69-60 backup, 59-0 replaceable.  FWIW, Carter was 53 and Echols 45.  Ouch.  People are going to say that pff is meaningless, but if the pass D sucked and the grading sucked, why do people think our CB situation doesn't suck? 

2. I am not so sure that Reed is a bonafide CB1.  The Seahawks certainly questioned it, which is why they made him a "disrespectful" offer.  They are ready to roll with Tre Brown, Artie Burns and Sidney Jones.  I guess to be fair, pff loves Reed.  He is also pretty darn short.  I like the signing, but I don't think he fixes our pass D by himself. 

3.  If you believe that Gardner is one of the top players in the draft, you take him.  If you think he is a great player and don't feel that way about the others, he's your guy.  It is never a waste to take a great player.  I would say the same about the Olinemen.  Yes we have a heavy investment in 2 tackles and 2 guards, but if you think Neal or Okonwu are the real deal and don't like Gardner or the others, go for it.  You don't just reach for and edge because you need an edge, especially since it could be the deepest position in this draft.

I would rather take best edge at 4 and davis at 10.  At least with davis you fix the run D and can change the way offenses scheme against you.  Having Gardner doesn’t fix the pass rush or the run d and those are the 2 biggest problems with the defense.

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13 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

I would rather take best edge at 4 and davis at 10.  At least with davis you fix the run D and can change the way offenses scheme against you.  Having Gardner doesn’t fix the pass rush or the run d and those are the 2 biggest problems with the defense.

I get where you're coming from and somewhat agree.  Generally, all things being equal, I think these guys take the edge.  I hate the fact that they ignored the run D, but IMO that is by design.  I think they are trying to stop the pass first - something we always begged for when we concentrated on run D and then teams would carve us up. 

IMO it is a passing league and I believe the Jets were next to last in passer rating against, a tenth ahead of hte Bears, and something like 29th yards allowed per attempt.  Make no mistake, their pass de was horrific and they were actually trying to stop the pass.  I think an upgrade in pass D helps the run as much as an edge that we are getting for his pass rush skills, not his ability to set the edge and run stop. 

My real belief is that it comes down to what they think about the prospects.  If they are against the me-first branding hype of Thibs, and love Gardner that is how they should go.  If all that stuff is overblown, then take the edge.

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16 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I get where you're coming from and somewhat agree.  Generally, all things being equal, I think these guys take the edge.  I hate the fact that they ignored the run D, but IMO that is by design.  I think they are trying to stop the pass first - something we always begged for when we concentrated on run D and then teams would carve us up. 

IMO it is a passing league and I believe the Jets were next to last in passer rating against, a tenth ahead of hte Bears, and something like 29th yards allowed per attempt.  Make no mistake, their pass de was horrific and they were actually trying to stop the pass.  I think an upgrade in pass D helps the run as much as an edge that we are getting for his pass rush skills, not his ability to set the edge and run stop. 

My real belief is that it comes down to what they think about the prospects.  If they are against the me-first branding hype of Thibs, and love Gardner that is how they should go.  If all that stuff is overblown, then take the edge.

I understand the pass d was terrible, but if Lawson does return, and they draft an edge in round 1, that should really help the pass rush.  But even with Q the run d sucked.  Now I’m not banging the table for a huge dt at 10 unequivocally, but what I’m saying is that having davis in on at least 1st and 2nd downs is better for the d than taking a cb at 4.  

In the end, my thoughts right now are that if thibs is there at 4 the jets take him and move on, thinking they got the best pure pass rusher in the draft.  Then at 10 they will have multiple options, whether it’s OL, wr or trading back.  And yes, maybe Gardner or davis at 10 as well.  Taking an edge at 4 changes their draft much more than going ekongwu at 4 and then everyone knowing they’re going edge with their next pick.  

As much as i want them to go wr in round 1 i just don’t see it happening.  The d needs too much and the draft board may dictate OL.  If anything i can see a trade out of 10, and then a mad push to try and get into the end of round 1 to try to get a 3rd pick and get a wr who fell.

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17 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Would you rather have someone like Maxx Crosby or Richard Sherman?

Sherman, in his prime, was clearly the better player. 

But why do I feel like Crosby, or pick your good-not-great pass rusher, is more valuable in 2022 NFL than prime Sherman?

Am I batsh*t crazy?

You’re not, I agree with you. And Sherman excelled in Saleh’s scheme even when he wasn’t in his prime. The priority is getting home to the QB. If you do that, good corners (regardless of this CB1/CB2 stuff) will be fine, and I honestly think we have a few good corners right now. 

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16 hours ago, Dwight Englewood said:

Because qb pressure helps your secondary and we can easily upgrade the CB position in rounds 2-7 and free agency

The NFL I'm watching has highly athletic QB's that are breaking containment and making huge plays all day long.   NFL teams are killing teams that come off the edge and lose containment.   There's a big difference between pressure up the middle and pressure from the edge.  You still need to be able to cover and close quickly with the athletic QB's that are all over the AFC.

We need both a better DL and a better secondary.  This team needs to upgrade all over the field.  

The reality is the draft is only successful for a crappy roster if you get highly productive players who are starting early and stay on the field.  If Sauce is that guy I have no issue taking him.  

The biggest problems with our drafts is we haven't gotten enough highly productive players.  We also have a roster where that should be easy to do.  We have very little in terms of high quality vets to challenge productive, smart rookies unless our coaching staff sucks.  

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