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I'm confused If the Jets select Sauce Gardener at #4. Can someone please explain this to me?


Alka
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18 hours ago, Alka said:

The Jets invested in the draft in 2020 in Bryce Hall by picking him in the 5th round.  He is a young guy, who I think has proven himself, and needs to continue to have playing time to develop to his fullest capabilities.  In 2021, the Jets invested draft capital in Michael Carter II and Echols, both cornerbacks, and both who have shown promise, and need playing time to continue with their development.  Then, this offseason, the Jets signed DJ Reed from the Seahawks, and rewarded him with a 3 year, $33,000,000.00 contract to start at cornerback.

So now, we have 2 cornerback positions, and 4 players who will make this team. DJ Reed is a proven starter, and the other 3 young guys, have proven that they need to be on the field to continue their development.  

If the Jets select Sauce at #4, then he will need to be an instant starter on this defense, opposite DJ Reed.  Surely and upgrade over the other 3 guys we have, but still, players who you want to have the opportunity to play.  

It just doesn't seem to be enough of a need to use the 4th overall pick on a cornerback, who will rob the opportunities from the other 3 players who you invested a lot into already.  After all, Sauce, as great as he may be, does not improve the pass rush, or significantly upgrade the run defense in my view.

I'm looking for someone to explain to me how I'm not seeing this correctly.

Hall is ok, might have starter upside.  I still like him, but he has alot left to prove to be considered a safe starter.

Echols and Carter II are likely depth guys, at best.  

Reed is presumably penciled in as a starter, obviously.

Most teams need three starter-quality CB's in the pass-happy modern NFL.  If not more.

Echols and Carter II aren't good enough, most likely.  Certainly the "draft Sauce" team must think so to some degree.  They were later picks anyway, hardly huge investments.  And they'll be around a bit still if they improve.

I think the "rob the opportunities" thing is quite over-stated here, opportunity is earned.  The three kids helped produce one of the worst defenses ever.  Not just the by-far-worst in 2021 (which it was), but the worst ever (for our Franchise).

No one on that putrid defense, except perhaps Mosely, should be "safe" for 2022.  Every position can and likely should be looked at for upgrade if available.  

If Sauce is a future Revis or Dion or even just a top-flite #1 CB, I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid him because "gosh darn'it, that Echols kid has spunk".  

With all that said, I wouldn't pick him unless the other options dried up before our picks.  Edge at #4, WR at #10, LB in the 2nd, TE or RB in the 2nd.  That remains my plan.  CB will just have to be what it is till 2023 in my view.

 

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16 hours ago, Dwight Englewood said:

CB is a need but it is much more easily solved than Edge rusher.  Which is why we have had plenty of good to even great corners over the years but no actual edge rusher since Abe 16 years ago

Tanny remembers! 

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16 hours ago, CanadienJetsFan said:

Relax, 

the pick won’t be a corner.

It’ll  be a DE or a tackle.

The DE needs to really be a consensus, everyone is on board, this guy is a can’t miss, game-changer choice. 

I don’t know if they’ve decided who that guy is a of yet. And that’s hoping he’s there at 4.

The tackle pick might be a bit more surprising seeing that we supposedly have our 2 “starters “

But with Becton’s health history, a viable backup is necessary. Is a rookie that guy?? 

Then there’s Fant. If the man has another good year, he’ll be slated to be one of the top free agents next year. Fant just might want to bet on himself and not sign an extension and test the market. That leaves our GM selecting next year’s everyday tackle starter this year.

 

If not….

TRADE DOWN!

 

 

If the bold is any part of taking a tackle at #4, then Douglas is unqualified. You do not burn the #4 pick for depth, let alone at a position where you're 100% starting or 100% not starting. At least a rookie corner or edge rusher, who isn't totally ready to start right away (or even all year long), can still be useful on >40% of the snaps, rotating in & out based on the down & distance. 

If they have #4-pick level of concern about Becton making it through this season, or in re-signing Fant beyond this season (e.g. say his extension demands are $22MM/yr), and want to take advantage of a premium LT prospect being there at #4 overall, then here are the options for a responsible GM:

  1. Have a trade already lined up for Becton or Fant. And it's consummated place when the Jets are on the clock so there's no danger of the other team backing out or changing the deal later.
  2. Draft a different position. CB and DE are both premium positions where top guys command $20MM, and either would be a more noticeable difference-maker to the team than swapping out one of our current tackle starters.
  3. Trade the pick, particularly if it's possible to add another 1st rounder next year, at the expense of merely picking lower in round 1 in a draft that isn't super top-heavy in the first place.

There is no other responsible play. You don't use the #4 overall pick that, by design, necessarily benches a productive LT starter - whichever of the three it is - because you sank team resources into 3 starters at a position where you start 2. This isn't the next Pace or Ogden maybe sitting there at #4 when we're on the clock; if he was that great he'd be a 100% lock to go #1 in this draft class.

If he isn't already lining up a potential draft-day trade for Becton or Fant, the responsible thing to do is to sink another $2-5MM/year (net cap charge of $1-4MM/year) into another experienced tackle for the year: one who shouldn't be expected to start, but if needed it doesn't sink the season. There are still more than a few such FAs left.

That's all on top of the reality that one shouldn't immediately expect elite OL play, on this line, even from a premium rookie prospect; it takes experience, and a minimum of some weeks of working with the starters. What if they draft a tackle at #4, use him as depth initially, but since he got so little work in with the starters he doesn't get it with many of his assignments for the first few starts or so (and many plays after that, where Wilson gets hit badly)? So even if they're not as talented anymore, in the immediate future, older veteran depth may be superior to a rookie anyway if only being used as depth initially. 

There are so many reasons it's just terrible use of the #4 pick.

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18 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

When you're picking this high you go for the elite, elite player at premium positions. I don't think they take him, but if you think he's an elite #1 corner I get it.

I also think Jets fans are higher on Bryce Hall than the org is. I'm not even sure he starts opposite Reed.

That’s the big knock on this draft there is no Elite Elite players at premium positions.  Bad time to pick twice in top 10.

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10 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

That’s the big knock on this draft there is no Elite Elite players at premium positions.  Bad time to pick twice in top 10.

Right, but if you disagree and think there are 1 or 2 it makes sense to grab those guys even if we have bigger needs than corner.

I'm not even advocating Sauce as such, but that mindset makes sense to me if you think these WRs are ordinary and there's depth at EDGE but he can truly be a Jalen Ramsey type.

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14 minutes ago, Jethead said:

IF the first 3 picks are Edge, then I take WR1 at 4, not CB1.

Otherwise, I take Edge 1,2 or 3. My preferred order is Thibs, Walker, Hutch but that's just me.

Interestingly, in jeramiah’s prospect rankings, wilson is 5 and london is 8.  Of course this is just one guy’s rankings, but still, if the jets are hell bent on getting a wr and do not trade for one before the draft, it is possible they could justify a wr based on their board.  But i still think they would go OT at 4 if edge went 1-3.

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20 hours ago, Alka said:

The Jets invested in the draft in 2020 in Bryce Hall by picking him in the 5th round.  He is a young guy, who I think has proven himself, and needs to continue to have playing time to develop to his fullest capabilities.  In 2021, the Jets invested draft capital in Michael Carter II and Echols, both cornerbacks, and both who have shown promise, and need playing time to continue with their development.  Then, this offseason, the Jets signed DJ Reed from the Seahawks, and rewarded him with a 3 year, $33,000,000.00 contract to start at cornerback.

So now, we have 2 cornerback positions, and 4 players who will make this team. DJ Reed is a proven starter, and the other 3 young guys, have proven that they need to be on the field to continue their development.  

If the Jets select Sauce at #4, then he will need to be an instant starter on this defense, opposite DJ Reed.  Surely and upgrade over the other 3 guys we have, but still, players who you want to have the opportunity to play.  

It just doesn't seem to be enough of a need to use the 4th overall pick on a cornerback, who will rob the opportunities from the other 3 players who you invested a lot into already.  After all, Sauce, as great as he may be, does not improve the pass rush, or significantly upgrade the run defense in my view.

I'm looking for someone to explain to me how I'm not seeing this correctly.

 

Premium position where Sauce could be the best of the bunch by a wide margin.  Definitely in play.

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20 hours ago, Alka said:

It just doesn't seem to be enough of a need to use the 4th overall pick on a cornerback

That's the thing, if Sauce is picked, its not a 'need' selection. They would be taking BPA, IMO. He would have to be the top guy on their board. 

As far as Hall, Echols and Carter II. 

These are all guys they invested low draft picks on. None of them are getting paid big money. None of them have proven that they are anything special- as good as Hall has shown he can be, he has not come close to a Pro Bowl selection. Also, Hall has shown that he is not a playmaker, he does not have the ball skills to turn the ball over. A critical aspect of a shut down CB and necessary (these days) in defending the pass. 

So yes, I completely agree that taking an Edge is the smarter move if a great edge is there. I get that we just signed Reed and have young CBs with potential. But I would NOT hate Sauce at 4 if there was no great edge there as far as the Jets were concerned. OR if we got a solid Edge at 10.   

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I wouldn't hate the pick, but I would be disappointed.

Joe Douglas has invested heavily in the secondary in the past couple of years.

Ashtyn Davis
Bryce Hall
Michael Carter II
Jason Pinnock
Brandin Echols
DJ Reed

Using a premium top 5 pick on a position that has been devalued in today's NFL, in a primarily zone scheme, with all of the resources that have already been spent would not be the wisest use of capital in my opinion.  Personally, I would see it as an admission of failure.

It's already a young, talented, and capable secondary group.  The Jets biggest issues on defense last season by far were stopping the run and rushing the passer.

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22 hours ago, Ruby2 said:

When are people going to realize that part of certain players appeal is based on what other players are available?

This guy will be the safest player at 4, arguable the best available, and plays a premium position. Sometimes it really is just checkers.

Gardner or KT?

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It is very unlikely they take any DB at 4, or even 10. They will prioritize a trench player (OL or DL) and a playmaker first, in my opinion. Saleh’s love for DJ Reed is infectious, and he will certainly give him every opportunity to be CB1. Hall and Echols will likely enter a competition for CB2 and Michael Carter II is your SCB1. They will probably add a corner on Day 2, but I’m still not even sure about that. They believe they can win with Day 3 talent at corner if they have blue chip pieces up front.


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22 hours ago, DoubleDown said:

Using a premium top 5 pick on a position that has been devalued in today's NFL, in a primarily zone scheme, with all of the resources that have already been spent would not be the wisest use of capital in my opinion.  Personally, I would see it as an admission of failure.

It's already a young, talented, and capable secondary group.  The Jets biggest issues on defense last season by far were stopping the run and rushing the passer.

I am exactly where you are.  And you hit the nail on the head where the biggest issues on defense were last season.  Stopping the run and rushing the passer.

If Joe Douglas is serious about playing meaningful games this year in December, then he better focus on 3 things, and 2 of them you already mentioned.  #1 Stop the Run  2. Rush the passer  3. Protect Zach Wilson and get him more playmakers, so that Zach can grow, and the offense can thrive.  OK, that's really 4 things, but getting Sauce doesn't help any of those things by drafting him at the #4 spot.  And he will be gone by #10.

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On 3/31/2022 at 2:46 PM, Alka said:

The Jets invested in the draft in 2020 in Bryce Hall by picking him in the 5th round.  He is a young guy, who I think has proven himself, and needs to continue to have playing time to develop to his fullest capabilities.  In 2021, the Jets invested draft capital in Michael Carter II and Echols, both cornerbacks, and both who have shown promise, and need playing time to continue with their development.  Then, this offseason, the Jets signed DJ Reed from the Seahawks, and rewarded him with a 3 year, $33,000,000.00 contract to start at cornerback.

So now, we have 2 cornerback positions, and 4 players who will make this team. DJ Reed is a proven starter, and the other 3 young guys, have proven that they need to be on the field to continue their development.  

If the Jets select Sauce at #4, then he will need to be an instant starter on this defense, opposite DJ Reed.  Surely and upgrade over the other 3 guys we have, but still, players who you want to have the opportunity to play.  

It just doesn't seem to be enough of a need to use the 4th overall pick on a cornerback, who will rob the opportunities from the other 3 players who you invested a lot into already.  After all, Sauce, as great as he may be, does not improve the pass rush, or significantly upgrade the run defense in my view.

I'm looking for someone to explain to me how I'm not seeing this correctly.

 

As much as you may think of guys lime Hall who is the best IMO of everyone except maybe Reed who so far has had one good season, no e of them are lockdown corners. We need a guy tjat we can put onna teams best WR andake them disappear. Sauce can be that guy.  

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