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Jameson Williams


FidelioJet
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2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

 

My main problem with the idea of picking Williams is really that Douglas probably doesn’t have enough job security to gamble on taking him. If I was the Packers or something, he’d be a great pick. For these Jets? Just can’t do it. I think missing so bad on Mims raises the stakes crazy high for Douglas to land the next one.

I don’t think Douglas can or will think like that, and honestly if that’s how he’s thinking he could probably just punt Williams not working out to the medical staff. “I was told he’d be the same and drafted the speed but he never recovered the way they expected.”

Still think the most prudent way to draft WR’s is to go Packers/Steelers and take your favorite in the second or third round every year until you have too many. Small difference in hit probability from first round, still find stars there, and the draft capital is way less than the first.

Don’t expect it but we’re all too binary as fans expecting guys to be good or bad. Hopefully Mims goes full George Fant this season.

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9 minutes ago, derp said:

They’re very small for an NFL WR, and it’d be an exception for someone with hands that small to be a high end producer as a WR. Close to some elite guys who are exceptions themselves, but still smaller. Sub 9” is very small. They’re 9th percentile for WR’s. Maybe you don’t like tiny for 9th percentile but I’ll let 9th percentile stand.

He’s also very lean for his height. There’s some promising stuff that’s going to get him drafted day two but if there weren’t good reasons for teams to pump the brakes on him he’d go a whole lot sooner. The profile is not without risk.

It’s absolutely a very flawed class.

It's not a great argument. If the individual's handsize compromised his ability to catch the ball, he'd perform mediocre at the position and likely not be a prospect we're talking about. I can't think of any cases of naturally gifted WRs who had all the intangibles and excelled at the things they need --- but held back because of handsize... Show me the guy running sick routes, tracks the ball well, great feet -- but his little ninja-turtles hands threw his career into the toilet. That person doesn't exist. 

Anyway there's nobody we should talking about taking in the top 10 IMO. 

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9 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Go watch Tyreek Hill highlights and you won't see a whole lot of contested catches either.   Just not going to be that kind of player.

Not saying he's Tyreek Hill, but he is the closest WR to him in this draft.

Isn't Tyreek Hill the best WR in the league against press coverage? Because from what i've been reading, that's exactly Williams' main weakness.

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9 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

 

My main problem with the idea of picking Williams is really that Douglas probably doesn’t have enough job security to gamble on taking him. If I was the Packers or something, he’d be a great pick. For these Jets? Just can’t do it. I think missing so bad on Mims raises the stakes crazy high for Douglas to land the next one.

eh maybe a little bit, but teams miss on WRs all the time. CIN picked John Ross and J. Chase in the top 10. It happens.. but i get what you're saying. I think Joe is not OK with relying (key word) on some high draft pick to counter steer the offense back in lane. It's why he keeps throwing down on big ticket FA/trade opportunities. 

Still think he'll pull something out of hat before the end of april. 

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9 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Go watch Tyreek Hill highlights and you won't see a whole lot of contested catches either.   Just not going to be that kind of player.

Not saying he's Tyreek Hill, but he is the closest WR to him in this draft.

Williams is allowed to have his fans. And does obviously - but let’s be clear, this is a terrible argument. No one’s out here  defiling Williams stock based on contested catches. It’s the limitations of his game. Tyreek hill can run laps around Williams in many departments.

70+% of Williams production that you love so much, came from 1 formation, getting a free release and running 2 routes. He had to leave Ohio State to shine. 

you can still love him, but own that sh*t

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JD has been showing that he wants a reliable, proven veteran WR to help the development of Zach Wilson.  He may not want to "develop" a rookie WR at the same time he's trying to get Zach a true WR1.  He might also still feel some sting from Mims not working out.

All of the above leads me to believe Jameson Williams is probably the least of the 1st Round-worthy WRs he'd want to take right now.  If the goal to support Zach immediately in September is sooo important that JD is trying to make power moves for guys like Tyreek Hill then I can't seem him taking on an unproven rookie with medical uncertainty with a 1st round pick.  Williams will be a boom or bust (and if he's a boom I don't think it will be right away in his rookie year).  JD is looking for almost the complete opposite at WR right now.  He wants Day 1 productivity and difference-making out of whatever WR he ends up with... (cough) DK Metcalf (cough).

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The closest players similar to a Tyreek Hill outside of Round 1 according to one guy are.... Skyy Moore, Calvin Austin III, Khalil Shakir, Jalen Tolbert, Wan'Dale Robinson.

Personally, I'd have Jahan Dotson on that list too.

Full article....

https://www.sportscasting.com/nfl-draft-5-under-radar-wrs-chiefs-should-target-replace-tyreek-hill/

 

2039882462_ScreenShot2022-04-06at9_02_25PM.thumb.png.6760c1b0c43f9803cfe49b7e82d5290e.png

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8 minutes ago, Paradis said:

It's not a great argument. If the individual's handsize compromised his ability to catch the ball, he'd perform mediocre at the position and likely not be a prospect we're talking about. I can't think of any cases of naturally gifted WRs who had all the intangibles and excelled at the things they need --- but held back because of handsize... Show me the guy running sick routes, tracks the ball well, great feet -- but his little ninja-turtles hands threw his career into the toilet. That person doesn't exist. 

Anyway there's nobody we should talking about taking in the top 10 IMO. 

I think when you’re talking about translating from one level to the next little things compound and there’s a reason teams look at physical traits and have thresholds. They’re a negative just like a bad 40 or being tall and not bulky. Doesn’t mean they can’t be overcome, but you have to think twice about it when a guy is taking a step up in competition. Otherwise essentially the argument is “guys who are good will be good” and either a) that doesn’t end up being the case or b) you’re going to make good be subjective.

But yes, nobody top ten in this class.

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I would need to see Williams after adding some strength and weight. I don't want this stick on my team right now. The worst blocking WR in the draft. Can't get off defenders. Sketchy hands in traffic. Add in the knee, and I am off him in the first round.

The Packers and Chiefs are both at least trying to make it seem like they are very interested in George Pickens. I like him a lot more in the 2nd round for the Packers than I do at 22 or 28. 

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On 4/1/2022 at 6:52 PM, FidelioJet said:

Just stop and think about this for a minute....as a maybe...

With him on the outside, Moore on the other side - Davis in the slot...

You draft Breece Hall at 35

You draft McBride at 38

The OL is already set - If those guys hit near their potential you have a championship caliber offense.  

 

 

 

Davis will be wide, not in the slot, that's going to be Moore 

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10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Today I learned the top WRs in the draft must not be all that impressive if Paradis is saying this.  5 of the top 7 guys are 6-3 or taller!  

They need to push 6’4.5 buddy before I start massaging shoulders 😎

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On 4/2/2022 at 8:44 AM, FidelioJet said:

This isn't complicated - yet you guys are trying to make it complicated.

You talk to the doctors and you are comfortable with the concerns then you take him.  If you're not, then you don't.

If the doctors are telling me he's going to be 100% by June - and that re-injury is a minimal risk - then to me, it's a no brainer to take him over the rest of the mediocre class behind him.

It matters not what anyone is saying what matters is how he does on the field. At this stage he is a gamble no matter what the Doctors are saying

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Just wondering:

If Williams never got injured, would he’d be a top 10 pick? Yes. That’s because he’s the consensus best receiver prospect. Correct?

If , big if I know, he’s recouping nicely and is expected to be 100%, then why not take him at 4? Wouldn’t he still be the best prospect? What ? so he misses a few games? He didn’t rip his entire knee to shreds. Many a player has had that same injury and recouped. Does he then fall under the “injury prone “ category? So for that, he’s a risk? They’re all injury prone in my mind. They play a violent sport.

Other than a DE, WR is a next position of need. If the thibodeaux’s and or karlaftis’ have their question marks and can be landed at 10, then why not draft the best WR prospect at 4? The only possible argument is that teams picking after 4 won’t, and that he’d be had at 10. Then, take him at 10 if, big if, the DE checks off more boxes.


Does anyone know if teams are permitted to take X-rays on his knee when he’s visiting ?

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8 hours ago, Paradis said:

Williams is allowed to have his fans. And does obviously - but let’s be clear, this is a terrible argument. No one’s out here  defiling Williams stock based on contested catches. It’s the limitations of his game. Tyreek hill can run laps around Williams in many departments.

70+% of Williams production that you love so much, came from 1 formation, getting a free release and running 2 routes. He had to leave Ohio State to shine. 

you can still love him, but own that sh*t

I have to tell you, people have really lost it around here...there are no longer civil conversations allowed.  Even when we agree. 

My statement agreed that he doesn't make contested catches - and that, frankly, that's not really his game.  

I Just pointed out that Hill doesn't make a lot of contested catches yet is a prolific WR in the NFL. To avoid a response like this I went as far as to point out that I know Hill and Williams aren't the same receiver...but alas, that attack came anyway.  This place has gotten really strange lately.

By you agreeing with me you called it a "terrible argument" and told me to "own that sh*t" (whatever that means) 

 

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7 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Davis will be wide, not in the slot, that's going to be Moore 

I think they'll move around a lot...but, IMO, you'll see Davis take more reps in the slot than Moore.

Well, depending on who the 3rd WR is - but I expect if we have anyone capable - you'll see Davis in the slot a lot more.  

This is an interesting article on how Davis is best suited for the slot and his challenges on the outside and on how he had a lot of success in TN. from the slot..

I think Moore's ability to better beat press coverage will make him more valuable on the outside.  

Just my opinion of course...

https://jetsxfactor.com/2022/02/22/ny-jets-move-corey-davis-slot/

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7 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

It matters not what anyone is saying what matters is how he does on the field. At this stage he is a gamble no matter what the Doctors are saying

Yes, of course he's a gamble.  Every draft pick is a gamble though.  Gamble that the pick might bust or past injury's hurt him or has a bad attitude or has a weakness that you hope you can coach up...etc...

You weigh the risks against the upside.

You do talk to his doctors and understand how the surgery went, how is progress is going, compare him to others that have seen similar progress etc.  Make an assessment on the risks % of him coming back 100%, % of re-injuring etc 

As an organization you weight how much more you like him over option 2 vs. the detailed risk assessment analysis you made and make a call.

That's all I'm saying.  Yes, it's a gamble, but they should do their diligence to determine if it's a gamble worth taking.

This isn't just for Williams, it should be for every prospect.

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8 hours ago, Gramsci said:

Isn't Tyreek Hill the best WR in the league against press coverage? Because from what i've been reading, that's exactly Williams' main weakness.

Surely.  They are different players that carry different skill-sets.  This was referencing one specific trait in that Williams didn't catch a lot of contested balls (there was some concern about that from another poster)

I just pointed to Hill as a very prolific WR in the NFL (who the Jets clearly like) that doesn't make a lot of contested catches either.

They are not the same player...they do share a particular trait is explosive speed though - that allows for burst of quick separation where making contested catches isn't necessary for them to flourish. 

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Yes, of course he's a gamble.  Every draft pick is a gamble though.  Gamble that the pick might bust or past injury's hurt him or has a bad attitude or has a weakness that you hope you can coach up...etc...

You weigh the risks against the upside.

You do talk to his doctors and understand how the surgery went, how is progress is going, compare him to others that have seen similar progress etc.  Make an assessment on the risks % of him coming back 100%, % of re-injuring etc 

As an organization you weight how much more you like him over option 2 vs. the detailed risk assessment analysis you made and make a call.

That's all I'm saying.  Yes, it's a gamble, but they should do their diligence to determine if it's a gamble worth taking.

This isn't just for Williams, it should be for every prospect.

Yes but gambles on talent are one thing adding an injury on top of that and  you have 2 gambles and 2 are not better than one . 

Also for the type offense we run we will need a bigger more durable receiver I'm not a big fan of these really skinny types working in a ball control WCO offense heavy on running the football. I think in that scenario the bigger thicker WR like Terylon Burks is the better option because we already have the dynamic type in Moore and we really need a reliable guy to gut it out over the middle, break tackles, and take a pounding and I'm pretty sure Williams is not that guy. Davis obviously failed in that regard last year so its a need.

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8 hours ago, PackerNation said:

I would need to see Williams after adding some strength and weight. I don't want this stick on my team right now. The worst blocking WR in the draft. Can't get off defenders. Sketchy hands in traffic. Add in the knee, and I am off him in the first round.

The Packers and Chiefs are both at least trying to make it seem like they are very interested in George Pickens. I like him a lot more in the 2nd round for the Packers than I do at 22 or 28. 

And this is exactly what I'm talking about . The Jets are going to be expecting WR's to do all those things needed in a small window and Williams is not that guy. This may be Robbie Anderson 2.0

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4 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Yes but gambles on talent are one thing adding an injury on top of that and  you have 2 gambles and 2 are not better than one . 

Also for the type offense we run we will need a bigger more durable receiver I'm not a big fan of these really skinny types working in a ball control WCO offense heavy on running the football. I think in that scenario the bigger thicker WR like Terylon Burks is the better option because we already have the dynamic type in Moore and we really need a reliable guy to gut it out over the middle, break tackles, and take a pounding and I'm pretty sure Williams is not that guy. Davis obviously failed in that regard last year so its a need.

I think there are two different arguments.  

First one all I'm saying is the team has to do a risk analysis - You have to take into the account of the risk of not taking him and he becomes a top WR in football.  There's risk in passing on him too.  IMO it's just not as a simple as saying if he's injured he have to pass.

As for Williams not being the right player that's a very different discussion.   While I don't agree I can totally see you position.  

I get it.  Particularly with Wilson - who has had a propensity to throw the ball high and also had a lot of his success in college with throwing the ball to covered receivers and having them win (putting his WR's in positions to catch the ball - even when covered) We don't have anyone that has shown to be trusted to regularly win in those situations.

But.... 

1) The Jets obvious interest in Hill tells me they don't necessarily see it the way you do

2) The over the middle, bigger, thicker guys is why we went out and signed two pas catching TE's and are likely to draft another.

While I like Williams a lot and think he'll be the best WR in the draft...I would be fine Burkes or London too - give me that big target, back shoulder throw kinda guy and I would be pumped - def. adds an element to the team the Jets don't have.

I just think it would be a mistake to take a 6 footer...with less speed, burst and upside than Williams - just because Williams was injured last year (understanding the risks of course)

 

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6 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

I have to tell you, people have really lost it around here...there are no longer civil conversations allowed.  Even when we agree. 

My statement agreed that he doesn't make contested catches - and that, frankly, that's not really his game.  

I Just pointed out that Hill doesn't make a lot of contested catches yet is a prolific WR in the NFL. To avoid a response like this I went as far as to point out that I know Hill and Williams aren't the same receiver...but alas, that attack came anyway.  This place has gotten really strange lately.

By you agreeing with me you called it a "terrible argument" and told me to "own that sh*t" (whatever that means) 

 

Well then it's my bad for over-extending your diplomacy on that specific part of the argument... The broader intent of what i said though was directed at you and every other "Clearly Williams is WR1 and a top talent"... 

Why?  

Seriously. "He's fast" ... "explosive".... 

And?

If you looked at the fasted WRs in the last decade or so. here's your "explosive" list

  • John Ross
  • Henry Ruggs
  • Dri Archer 
  • Jerome Mathis
  • Darius Heyward-Bey
  • Jacoby Ford
  • Philip Dorsett
  • Marquis Brown

 

The only one who's done anything is Hollywood Brown.  Most never developed beyond relying on outrunning future Walgreens DBs.  Jameson Williams has way more in common with Ross, DHB and Dorsett, then he does with Tyreek Hill or someone like Chase

Can Williams develop? Chrebetfan80 think so. I'm of the 50/50 club -- but he has put very very little tape scheme wise to demonstrate that he'll be ready to do much more than run posts and corners out of the gate.

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5 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Well then it's my bad for over-extending your diplomacy on that specific part of the argument... The broader intent of what i said though was directed at you and every other "Clearly Williams is WR1 and a top talent"... 

Why?  

Seriously, #teamWilliams backs up their fanfare with peanut shells and banana peels. "He's fast" ... "explosive".... 

And?

If you looked at the fasted WRs in the last decade or so. here's your "explosive" list

  • John Ross
  • Henry Ruggs
  • Dri Archer 
  • Jerome Mathis
  • Darius Heyward-Bey
  • Jacoby Ford
  • Philip Dorsett
  • Marquis Brown

 

I hate using this word, but LITERALLLY the only one who's done anything is Hollywood Brown.  Most never developed beyond relying on outrunning future Walgreens DBs. 

Jameson Williams has WAY more in common with Ross, DHB and Dorsett, then he does with Tyreek Hill

Can Williams develop? Chrebetfan80 think so. I'm of the 50/50 club -- but he has put very very very...

very....

 

 

very little on tape scheme wise to demonstrate that he'll be ready to do much more than run posts and corners out of the gate.

I don’t think douglas can afford to take Jamison in the first round and not have him be ready for opening day.  Douglas needs instant contributors.  His gm rep is still very much a tbd.  If he takes a wr at 10 i think it’s a guy who he feels has a very high floor which is probably wilson and not london or burks.  If he ultimately can’t trade for a veteran wr, and is hell bent on getting his wr in the first round, he may just take a wr at 4 with the understanding that he can grab JJ or karlaftis as his edge, guys who may not be much different from the edges taken in the top 4 anyway.  

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1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

I don’t think douglas can afford to take Jamison in the first round and not have him be ready for opening day.  Douglas needs instant contributors.  His gm rep is still very much a tbd.  If he takes a wr at 10 i think it’s a guy who he feels has a very high floor which is probably wilson and not london or burks.  If he ultimately can’t trade for a veteran wr, and is hell bent on getting his wr in the first round, he may just take a wr at 4 with the understanding that he can grab JJ or karlaftis as his edge, guys who may not be much different from the edges taken in the top 4 anyway.  

sure he can. Thats why we are paying Corey Davis for another full year.  The plus value on Williams for beyond 2022 is worth it to me. If he's ther in the low-mid 20's... go get him, especially if you traded down from one of the other two picks. JD is allowed to draft more than one WR, right?  Plenty of prospects who could contribute days 2 & 3.  JMO.  I want a stud WR for a change.  It's time.  

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Just now, Dcat said:

sure he can. Thats why we are paying Corey Davis for another full year.  The plus value on Williams for beyond 2022 is worth it to me. If he's ther in the low-mid 20's... go get him, especially if you traded down from one of the other two picks. JD is allowed to draft more than one WR, right?  Plenty of prospects who could contribute days 2 & 3.  JMO.  I want a stud WR for a change.  It's time.  

I would be very surprised if he took Jamison at 10.  Douglas is drafting for his job.  He needs guys who are going to help wilson immediately.

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I think the guy will be good (based on whats been written), but he likely wont have an amazing rookie year with the injury and missing OTA's and training camp. That means the jets still need to trade for someone.

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4 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

I think there are two different arguments.  

First one all I'm saying is the team has to do a risk analysis - You have to take into the account of the risk of not taking him and he becomes a top WR in football.  There's risk in passing on him too.  IMO it's just not as a simple as saying if he's injured he have to pass.

As for Williams not being the right player that's a very different discussion.   While I don't agree I can totally see you position.  

I get it.  Particularly with Wilson - who has had a propensity to throw the ball high and also had a lot of his success in college with throwing the ball to covered receivers and having them win (putting his WR's in positions to catch the ball - even when covered) We don't have anyone that has shown to be trusted to regularly win in those situations.

But.... 

1) The Jets obvious interest in Hill tells me they don't necessarily see it the way you do

2) The over the middle, bigger, thicker guys is why we went out and signed two pas catching TE's and are likely to draft another.

While I like Williams a lot and think he'll be the best WR in the draft...I would be fine Burkes or London too - give me that big target, back shoulder throw kinda guy and I would be pumped - def. adds an element to the team the Jets don't have.

I just think it would be a mistake to take a 6 footer...with less speed, burst and upside than Williams - just because Williams was injured last year (understanding the risks of course)

 

In the case of Hill he's built like a tank and he has made the contested catches. Hill was a terror within 20 yards and he was able to withstand the pounding after the catch I'm not sure Williams can do that and I promise you this offense is not going to be bombs away which is more like Williams game . In an Ideal scenario we get both guys then we have the Quick guy in the slot Moore, The Big Possession guy Davis was supposed to be in Burks, and the Burner in Williams. I'm all for that and its not too far fetched to get both types of WR in this draft. In that scenario Davis walks next year and we have everyone on the cheap for 3+ years. You do this and get another dynamic RB to take some burden off of Carter and then we're talking explosive offense. if you look at SF that is exactly how they are built and the guys currently running this show are 100% using that blueprint because 1. They know it works and 2. they know they can coach it.

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I don't understand the "needs to help Wilson immediately" argument at all.

Joe Douglas needs to draft the player that is going to help the Jets win a Superbowl in 2-3 years.  He doesn't need to draft the player who is definitely going to suit up Week 1.  Joe Douglas is not going anywhere.  He's not on the hot seat.  The Johnsons are going to let this one play out IMO.

Moore, Davis, Berrios, Mims, and Smith are on the team.  People are acting like the Jets don't have enough WRs to field a roster in Week 1.  And let's not forget that the Jets have two new, highly paid pass catching TEs that are going to soak up targets as well.

Williams as a high ceiling, impact player and a dynamic, explosive RB would be fantastic additions to this team as its currently constructed.  If Williams has to miss the first month of the season, it's basically meaningless in the grand scheme.

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On 4/1/2022 at 4:29 PM, FidelioJet said:

 

I don't know if there's any truth to this but if Williams will be ready to go this summer Jets would be insane not to take him 10, heck at this point I would take him at 4.  Easily the best WR in this draft.  

We can't afford to wait for him..well we can but we won't. He is going to drop. Like second round. That's where you grab him.

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On 4/7/2022 at 12:30 PM, DoubleDown said:

I don't understand the "needs to help Wilson immediately" argument at all.

Joe Douglas needs to draft the player that is going to help the Jets win a Superbowl in 2-3 years.  He doesn't need to draft the player who is definitely going to suit up Week 1.  Joe Douglas is not going anywhere.  He's not on the hot seat.  The Johnsons are going to let this one play out IMO.

Moore, Davis, Berrios, Mims, and Smith are on the team.  People are acting like the Jets don't have enough WRs to field a roster in Week 1.  And let's not forget that the Jets have two new, highly paid pass catching TEs that are going to soak up targets as well.

Williams as a high ceiling, impact player and a dynamic, explosive RB would be fantastic additions to this team as its currently constructed.  If Williams has to miss the first month of the season, it's basically meaningless in the grand scheme.

I'm fine with you ignoring the 'hot seat' argument for a moment - which can be debated since GM's and coaches are chopped and changed constantly in this league - because generally I agree with you. Barring a disaster, both Douglas and Saleh are likely to be back in '23.

If we just focus on quarterback development though, I think it's best to achieve some modicum of success in this league as soon as possible. Very few quarterbacks 'recover' after two poor seasons. Everyone points to Josh Allen, but he's the exception, not the norm. 

I think it'd be wise to give Wilson as much immediate impact players as is possible. I wouldn't hate the Jameson pick, but it's not the one I'd make. Gimme Pickens, Watson or Pierce and let them have a full training camp to be integrated. Or even better, trade for an established veteran. 

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