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Building a team doesn’t take a decade


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On 4/12/2022 at 2:53 AM, oatmeal said:

Be careful, you can make all the racist jokes you want but god forbid you criticize this mediocre GM 👀

Oh wait, he’s mediocre now?? Wow, for real?

His teams went 6-27. That’s not mediocre. 

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On 4/12/2022 at 11:25 AM, Warfish said:

You might want to re-read the posts.  I don't think you understand them, given this pedantic reply.

All along I've been talking about the 2022 season and evaluating JD's future after we get those results.

Clearly, by that point, he will have completed his third draft and offseason.

I'll repeat myself, no one is talking about firing JD today.

You’re word for word post says: 

The upcoming 2022 season simply IS JD's fourth season as the Jets GM.  
 

Its simply not true, it’s his third season and third draft

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33 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:
Quote

You might want to re-read the posts.  I don't think you understand them, given this pedantic reply.

All along I've been talking about the 2022 season and evaluating JD's future after we get those results.

Clearly, by that point, he will have completed his third draft and offseason.

I'll repeat myself, no one is talking about firing JD today.

You’re word for word post says: 

The upcoming 2022 season simply IS JD's fourth season as the Jets GM.  

Its simply not true, it’s his third season and third draft

I presume you understand the difference between offseason and season.

This is JD's third offseason (league start FA period and Draft) and his fourth season (Training Camp, camp FA activity/cuts, and the regular season).

If you do still do not agree, ok, you're entitled to your viewpoint.  Have a great day.

 

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5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I presume you understand the difference between offseason and season.

This is JD's third offseason (league start FA period and Draft) and his fourth season (Training Camp, camp FA activity/cuts, and the regular season).

If you do still do not agree, ok, you're entitled to your viewpoint.  Have a great day.

 

It’s going to be his third draft.  That’s what I said.  Is misleading and confusing to claim it’s his 4th season when he came in after FA and the draft year one.  

You have a great day too. 

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On 4/13/2022 at 5:10 AM, Irish Jet said:

Haha.

It's pretty sad that all of his best moves have relied on the absolute idiocy of other GM's. Everyone on the planet knew the Darnold, Adams and Herndon deals were a joke the moment they were made. This speaks far more to their desperation and incompetence than anything else. 

The moves he's made where he's relied on nothing but his own ability to evaluate have been atrocious. Between every free agent signing and every draft pick there's a lot more failures than hits. In fact the only four we can confidently say look like good value are Fant, Hall, Moore and Carter and he's extremely fortunate the latter two fell like they did. 

Kalil, Griffin, Perriman, Jenkins, Desir, Van Roten, Feeney (twice), Curry, Jarrad Davis, Cole, Rankins

Look at that list. That's almost $60m spent on genuine trash - Cripples and losers. Not even JAG's - every one of the above was an actual hindrance on the field if they even made it there. You'd think we're running a make-a-wish with some of those contracts. His big free agency moves - McGovern, Corey Davis, Lawson - Either disappointments or injured. All of that money spent and only George Fant has been a hit. That is terrible by absolutely any measure.

His 2020 draft has been atrocious. A literal non factor in their second season. Obvious moves not taken by a GM who was trying to be too cute. In the middle rounds where teams really find their quality depth we got Zuniga, Morgan and Perine. The latter of which is our worst draft pick since Hackenberg. Sabotage.

The pick they've invested everything in - Zach Wilson - Literally couldn't have looked much worse in 2021. Bottomed out in almost every statistical category after being anointed the starter on day one. Clearly pushed into action before he was ready but we were so confident in Mike White. Until Mike White had to play when we desperately scrambled to sign a vet. Wilson needs almost unprecedented improvement to become a long term viable option or he'll be out after two years. 

Anyone pretending this guy has been anything but a resounding failure to this point is delusional. You have people pretending like rebuilds take 5 years in the NFL when we've seen the Bengals go from worst to almost first in two f*cking years. It's almost impressive how badly he botched the 2020 offseason. That was an opportunity to take a real step forward and we went backwards. People made up their minds with Douglas and are having a hard time accepting the reality right in front of their eyes. 

The cult will keep defending him but if things go as badly as a I suspect they will in 2022 then his support will very quickly erode. His record on the field is atrocious. His signings and draft picks have been atrocious. There is nothing that you can point to that would inspire confidence in him going forward.

He's best moves was the trade of Adams, not extending Darnold and getting offset language in Zach's contract.  The two moves that are unknown and have the biggest impact on the teams future is Zach Wilson and Robert Saleh.   I hate where this team is but I recognize that Wilson and Saleh were both high risk, high reward moves that generally don't have a high pay off in year 1.  Yes they both were awful in year 1.  I have the pitchfork and torch ready but I'm not lighting it up until at least half way through next season.  

Like some of his offseason moves so far.  Not life changing but solid.  

 

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2 hours ago, Tranquilo said:

Les Snead joined the Rams in 2012.

They didn't have their first winning season until 2017.

Took him a decade to win the Super Bowl.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/executives/SneaLe0.htm

After those first five seasons, he certainly could have been fired.

His teams didn't start to win till that 6th season.

Is he the outlier?  Or the norm?  Should GM's start with 10 year unvoidable, fully guaranteed contracts, so every new GM gets "Snead time"?

You got me.  There is no question a substantial portion of our fanbase wants to see results now.

And to be clear, Snead started out 7-8-1, 7-9, 6-10, 7-9 before thot horrid 4 win season.

JD is 7-9 (which many here don't count for him because he was not hired for the FA or Draft period, as noted....at length...above) and 2-14 and 4-13.  For a first three (two) years, that's meaningfully worse than 7-8-1 and 7-9, which is at least competitive/mediocre.  We're not even that, as yet.

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Just now, Warfish said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/executives/SneaLe0.htm

After those first five seasons, he certainly could have been fired.

His teams didn't start to win till that 6th season.

Is he the outlier?  Or the norm?  Should GM's start with 10 year unvoidable, fully guaranteed contracts, so every new GM gets "Snead time"?

You got me.  There is no question a substantial portion of our fanbase wants to see results now.

And to be clear, Snead started out 7-8-1, 7-9, 6-10, 7-9 before thot horrid 4 win season.

JD is 7-9 (which many here don't count for him because he was not hired for the FA or Draft period, as noted....at length...above) and 2-14 and 4-13.  For a first three (two) years, that's meaningfully worse than 7-8-1 and 7-9, which is at least competitive/mediocre.  We're not even that, as yet.

True. I'd be disappointed if we're not around the 6-7 win range at worst. But on the flip side, if Douglas had 4 seasons like that and followed it up with a 4 win season, I think he'd be fired.

The reason I want to give him time is because I don't think he's made crazy ass desperation moves. He's shown patience. What's going to keep him around are his draft picks. If he doesn't hit, he's probably gone. But the process has been the correct approach, IMO. But he's gotta draft well.

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3 minutes ago, Tranquilo said:

True. I'd be disappointed if we're not around the 6-7 win range at worst. But on the flip side, if Douglas had 4 seasons like that and followed it up with a 4 win season, I think he'd be fired.

The reason I want to give him time is because I don't think he's made crazy ass desperation moves. He's shown patience. What's going to keep him around are his draft picks. If he doesn't hit, he's probably gone. But the process has been the correct approach, IMO. But he's gotta draft well.

Can't disagree with any of that really.

People seem to think I want JD fired like, yesterday.  

All I'm talking about is evaluating JD at year's end (end of the 2022 season), and seeing "are we headed in the right direction, not just conceptually, but with results on the field".

That's all.  I'm not against patience or consistency, if they really appear to be going the right way.  Not just in the eyes of the usual cadre of homer type eternal optimist fans who never call for anyone to be fired till after they're gone, lol, but with tangible, measurable results.

Hell, I'm not even saying I'd fire JD if we only win 4-6 in 2022.  But I'd evaluate it.

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Unless the team wins 1-2 games, JD and Saleh will be back next year at a minimum.

1) I doubt they're going to fire Saleh after two seasons that started with a week roster and a rookie QB.  If you accept that, then they're also not likely to fire the GM, and try to find a new GM to match with their current coach.  Tried it, didn't work.  So, both will get the opportunity to see this through.  That means, the evaluation of the results will likely be how the team looks in 2023, like it or not.

2) Douglas has not made one single move this offseason that makes you think he's under any pressure to inflate wins this year with quick fixes.  His strategy has remained the same.  Incremental growth, solidify the trenches, no bad contracts, and build through the draft.  If he was in real danger, you offer #10 for Hill and KC tells him too bad sad, and you make big overpays this offseason.  Neither happened.  No doubt JD has made Woody Johnson understand that the team was a mess and fixing it right takes time.

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1 minute ago, ZachEY said:

Unless the team wins 1-2 games, JD and Saleh will be back next year at a minimum.

1) I doubt they're going to fire Saleh after two seasons that started with a week roster and a rookie QB.  If you accept that, then they're also not likely to fire the GM, and try to find a new GM to match with their current coach.  Tried it, didn't work.  So, both will get the opportunity to see this through.  That means, the evaluation of the results will likely be how the team looks in 2023, like it or not.

2) Douglas has not made one single move this offseason that makes you think he's under any pressure to inflate wins this year with quick fixes.  His strategy has remained the same.  Incremental growth, solidify the trenches, no bad contracts, and build through the draft.  If he was in real danger, you offer #10 for Hill and KC tells him too bad sad, and you make big overpays this offseason.  Neither happened.  No doubt JD has made Woody Johnson understand that the team was a mess and fixing it right takes time.

Point (1) makes complete sense.  

 

The only counter to point (2) is that Douglas has been big-name hunting this offseason - tried to land Hill (a guy nobody would have guessed he'd try to trade for a year ago), flirted with Chandler Jones, flirted with Gilmore, checked in on Ridley, possibly checked in on DK and Deebo. He might be starting to feel the pressure. 

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11 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Unless the team wins 1-2 games, JD and Saleh will be back next year at a minimum.

1) I doubt they're going to fire Saleh after two seasons that started with a week roster and a rookie QB.  If you accept that, then they're also not likely to fire the GM, and try to find a new GM to match with their current coach.  Tried it, didn't work.  So, both will get the opportunity to see this through.  That means, the evaluation of the results will likely be how the team looks in 2023, like it or not.

You're probably right.  Although I think another 3-4 win, bottom tier offense, worst in franchise history type defense WOULD get both GM and HC fired, even after only two years.  Maybe.  Probably not.

11 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

2) Douglas has not made one single move this offseason that makes you think he's under any pressure to inflate wins this year with quick fixes.  His strategy has remained the same.  Incremental growth, solidify the trenches, no bad contracts, and build through the draft.  If he was in real danger, you offer #10 for Hill and KC tells him too bad sad, and you make big overpays this offseason.  Neither happened.  No doubt JD has made Woody Johnson understand that the team was a mess and fixing it right takes time.

He seems to be under no pressure to win whatsoever.  Not last year, not this coming year.  The question, then, is when do the Johnsons expect to win.  That is when the pressure would start, but only they know that.  

But again, you're right, it's almost assuredly not at the end of 2022, barring complete disaster (on par with 2020 and 2021).

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19 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Point (1) makes complete sense.  

 

The only counter to point (2) is that Douglas has been big-name hunting this offseason - tried to land Hill (a guy nobody would have guessed he'd try to trade for a year ago), flirted with Chandler Jones, flirted with Gilmore, checked in on Ridley, possibly checked in on DK and Deebo. He might be starting to feel the pressure. 

Hill is really the only thing that got close.  And, we do know that the Jets have always had the ability to get their guy when desperate by overpaying.  We haven't done that.  I'm only going by moves made, not moves we almost made, because reports aren't necessarily to be trusted.

9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You're probably right.  Although I think another 3-4 win, bottom tier offense, worst in franchise history type defense WOULD get both GM and HC fired, even after only two years.  Maybe.  Probably not.

He seems to be under no pressure to win whatsoever.  Not last year, not this coming year.  The question, then, is when do the Johnsons expect to win.  That is when the pressure would start, but only they know that.  

But again, you're right, it's almost assuredly not at the end of 2022, barring complete disaster (on par with 2020 and 2021).

When?  I can't say what the Johnson's expect, but here's what I'd expect at this point.  This year, I'd expect to see a relatively competitive team, even if they lost more than they won.  I'd expect it to be clear where this team is headed.  Then, in 2023, the results start to matter, and we've got to be very competitive.  The AFC is much more difficult than the NFC, so I wouldn't even call 2023 a "playoff mandate," but it would undoubtedly be, a 'look like a playoff team' mandate.  That said, there's another option if I'm owner.  Lets say the team looks good, but not Wilson, which causes us to lose more than win, I'd keep this staff and allow them to acquire a QB, even as early as next offseason, and make a go with a veteran.

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33 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

When?  I can't say what the Johnson's expect, but here's what I'd expect at this point.  This year, I'd expect to see a relatively competitive team, even if they lost more than they won.  I'd expect it to be clear where this team is headed.  Then, in 2023, the results start to matter, and we've got to be very competitive.  The AFC is much more difficult than the NFC, so I wouldn't even call 2023 a "playoff mandate," but it would undoubtedly be, a 'look like a playoff team' mandate.  That said, there's another option if I'm owner.  Lets say the team looks good, but not Wilson, which causes us to lose more than win, I'd keep this staff and allow them to acquire a QB, even as early as next offseason, and make a go with a veteran.

No playoff mandate in 2023.  Ugh.

So the GM will have been in place from 2019 to 2023 (5 years, 4 offseasons), and no mandate to actually win football games.

Not saying you're wrong.  Actually, I think you're right in your view of the Johnsons right now.

But man, that's a hard thing to accept, that we could suck again in 2022 and 2023 (<7 wins) and still be talking about "doing it right" and "rebuild like we've never seen", with no impetus for winning or else.

That's sorta depressing.  I'm not sure how many more decades I have left to wait for 5-7 year plans.

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1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

Unless the team wins 1-2 games, JD and Saleh will be back next year at a minimum.

1) I doubt they're going to fire Saleh after two seasons that started with a week roster and a rookie QB.  If you accept that, then they're also not likely to fire the GM, and try to find a new GM to match with their current coach.  Tried it, didn't work.  So, both will get the opportunity to see this through.  That means, the evaluation of the results will likely be how the team looks in 2023, like it or not.

2) Douglas has not made one single move this offseason that makes you think he's under any pressure to inflate wins this year with quick fixes.  His strategy has remained the same.  Incremental growth, solidify the trenches, no bad contracts, and build through the draft.  If he was in real danger, you offer #10 for Hill and KC tells him too bad sad, and you make big overpays this offseason.  Neither happened.  No doubt JD has made Woody Johnson understand that the team was a mess and fixing it right takes time.

KC wasn't the problem.

so that happens and Hill leaves after 12 months to go to Miami. you cant make that trade without Hill signing an extension. we lost the 10th pick for nothing.

we will know after the draft. if he goes OL and CB then he has no pressure. if he goes Edge and WR he knows he has to win games this year

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17 hours ago, Warfish said:

No playoff mandate in 2023.  Ugh.

So the GM will have been in place from 2019 to 2023 (5 years, 4 offseasons), and no mandate to actually win football games.

Not saying you're wrong.  Actually, I think you're right in your view of the Johnsons right now.

But man, that's a hard thing to accept, that we could suck again in 2022 and 2023 (<7 wins) and still be talking about "doing it right" and "rebuild like we've never seen", with no impetus for winning or else.

That's sorta depressing.  I'm not sure how many more decades I have left to wait for 5-7 year plans.

I just think playoff mandates are dumb.  Too much happens in a (now) 17 game season to be that myopic.  Zach Wilson plays well for 12 games, gets injured for the final five, they miss the playoffs.  Burn it down?  They win 10 games, but in the stacked AFC, that's not good enough for a WC?  Burn it down?

In the AFC, we currently have the Bills, Patriots, Ravens, Bengals, Browns, Colts, Titans, Broncos, Chiefs, Raiders, and Chargers.  There are 7 playoff spots.  Which four of those teams are we punishing the current administration for not being better than at the present moment.

I think you have to be more thoughtful than that.  It will be clear, in my opinion, if this is working.  A couple bounces of a football notwithstanding.

And, as for as sucking in 2023, I don't think that's the case.  But, again, in this current AFC configuration, you could be a good football team and still not make the playoffs.  Many good football teams wont make the playoffs this year.  I worry about being a good team, not as much wins and losses, as those, generally are a result of being a good team.  We beat the Cincinnati Bengals last year.  We have one win against them, they have one loss against us.  Who was better?  Who do you want to be going into next year?  That's my whole point.  If the team is good/getting good, we'll know it.

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1 hour ago, doitny said:

KC wasn't the problem.

so that happens and Hill leaves after 12 months to go to Miami. you cant make that trade without Hill signing an extension. we lost the 10th pick for nothing.

we will know after the draft. if he goes OL and CB then he has no pressure. if he goes Edge and WR he knows he has to win games this year

KC was (ALSO) the problem because they allowed Hill to dictate.  A different offer changes that.  We could have made KC a meaningfully better offer and then franchised Hill, or made him an offer that made it obvious that his life in Miami could wait.  Another 5M per year, perhaps?

I'm glad we didn't.  But, we certainly could have.

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1 hour ago, doitny said:

KC wasn't the problem.

so that happens and Hill leaves after 12 months to go to Miami. you cant make that trade without Hill signing an extension. we lost the 10th pick for nothing.

we will know after the draft. if he goes OL and CB then he has no pressure. if he goes Edge and WR he knows he has to win games this year

I'm curious why taking a OL and CB means he's not  necessarily has to win now?

And why taking two of the most premium positions in the game means he has a win now mandate?

Not saying you're wrong - just curious as to how you came to that conclusion.

I feel like ultimately an edge and WR is in the best long term and short interest of the franchise.

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1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

I just think playoff mandates are dumb.  Too much happens in a (now) 17 game season to be that myopic.  Zach Wilson plays well for 12 games, gets injured for the final five, they miss the playoffs.  Burn it down?  They win 10 games, but in the stacked AFC, that's not good enough for a WC?  Burn it down?

In the AFC, we currently have the Bills, Patriots, Ravens, Bengals, Browns, Colts, Titans, Broncos, Chiefs, Raiders, and Chargers.  There are 7 playoff spots.  Which four of those teams are we punishing the current administration for not being better than at the present moment.

I think you have to be more thoughtful than that.  It will be clear, in my opinion, if this is working.  A couple bounces of a football notwithstanding.

And, as for as sucking in 2023, I don't think that's the case.  But, again, in this current AFC configuration, you could be a good football team and still not make the playoffs.  Many good football teams wont make the playoffs this year.  I worry about being a good team, not as much wins and losses, as those, generally are a result of being a good team.  We beat the Cincinnati Bengals last year.  We have one win against them, they have one win against us.  Who was better?  Who do you want to be going into next year?  That's my whole point.  If the team is good/getting good, we'll know it.

Not that I disagree per se, but I guess you’re just vastly more patient and forgiving than I am these days. Hopefully we don’t suck like we have recently in 2022 all this is moot. But I leave this exchange far less optimistic than I’d want to be tbh. The one point I don’t really agree is “know if they’re getting good”. Not on this forum.

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7 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm curious why taking a OL and CB means he's not  necessarily has to win now?

And why taking two of the most premium positions in the game means he has a win now mandate?

Not saying you're wrong - just curious as to how you came to that conclusion.

I feel like ultimately an edge and WR is in the best long term and short interest of the franchise.

cause OL and CB are our 2 best positions and drafting either off them does not move the needle.

if he goes OL then hes moving out either Fant who gave up one sack or Becton and given up after 2 years. this shows me he can sit back and keep using 1st rd picks until he gets his perfect OL. which to me seams like there is no urgency to win this year. 

same with CB. Hall was probably our best defensive player. MC2 had a good year in the slot. with Reed here the odd man out has to be Hall. the upgrade from Gardner to Hall isnt all that great. and you push Hall to either Dime packages which the whole NFL runs about 7% of the time or he gets traded. now before Reed was signed he would have replaced Echols and THAT would have been a huge improvement.

OL and CB just seams like he is polishing off a position while ignoring much bigger needs. 

scoring TDs and sacking the QB wins football games. whoever we draft at Edge will be a big improvement over whoever is there now. and whatever 1st rd WR we pick should be a big improvement over Berrios. 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, ZachEY said:

KC was (ALSO) the problem because they allowed Hill to dictate.  A different offer changes that.  We could have made KC a meaningfully better offer and then franchised Hill, or made him an offer that made it obvious that his life in Miami could wait.  Another 5M per year, perhaps?

I'm glad we didn't.  But, we certainly could have.

yeah like forcing a guy to play where he doesnt want to always works out. 

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12 hours ago, Warfish said:

Not that I disagree per se, but I guess you’re just vastly more patient and forgiving than I am these days. Hopefully we don’t suck like we have recently in 2022 all this is moot. But I leave this exchange far less optimistic than I’d want to be tbh. The one point I don’t really agree is “know if they’re getting good”. Not on this forum.

My stance on firing coaches is well documented.  It's usually an exercise in futility and in the end, just an effort to appease the fans.  So, I don't need blood the sake of blood.  As for GM's, they carry the load of the blame in my view, but another good draft class, even if the team doesn't have a great record, and I view that as a positive and am not sure what will be gained by firing Douglas.  I'm on board with the mid-tier FA approach, and believe that results typically follow a good process.  I guess, ultimately, what you're calling patience is me digging in on the fact that Macc, and to a lesser degree now (and always) Idzik, did such a bad job that it's going to take a meaningful string of good work to get us out of it.  So, if I believe Macc was as monumental a problem as I do, I can't fault Douglas for not fixing it yet.  I have to judge him on what I view as progress.

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1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

My stance on firing coaches is well documented.  It's usually an exercise in futility and in the end, just an effort to appease the fans.  So, I don't need blood the sake of blood. 

I guess this is one spot where we disagree.  You could leave a guy in place for 20+ years, if he's the wrong guy, you're never going to win.  So I don't see it as "blood for blood sake", I see it as error correction.  I'd arge your concept is "consistency for consistency sake" as opposed to because ongoing investment was earned.  I.e. You probably hired the wrong guy, and he isn't working or producing tangible results, so no point continuing to re-invest in that sunk cost just to claim "look, we're consistent" when the entire set of available alternate options surely has someone better or worth getting their shot to produce.  

TLDR:  We don't suck because we didn't give Macc enough time.  Or Bowles enough time.  Or Gase enough time.  They earned their firing, giving someone else their shot was the right call.....although the Johnsons poor hiring record is a problem too.

1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

As for GM's, they carry the load of the blame in my view, but another good draft class, even if the team doesn't have a great record, and I view that as a positive and am not sure what will be gained by firing Douglas.  I'm on board with the mid-tier FA approach, and believe that results typically follow a good process.  I guess, ultimately, what you're calling patience is me digging in on the fact that Macc, and to a lesser degree now (and always) Idzik, did such a bad job that it's going to take a meaningful string of good work to get us out of it.  So, if I believe Macc was as monumental a problem as I do, I can't fault Douglas for not fixing it yet.  I have to judge him on what I view as progress.

The modern NFL doesn't require five years to rebuild.  It just doesn't.  So sure, previous GM's were poor, but that only buys so many years in a league where 20-30% of the roster turns over every single year, and we had very few long-term lodestones around our neck when JD arrived.  This wasn't post-Parcells worn-out-Vets cap hell, after all.

Yes, a great draft in a few days, that shows actual on-field dividends eary, is surely a step in the right direction.  We can agree to disagree on how great the 2021 draft class is/was so far, I tend to think it's quite over-rated by our fans, but/shurg, it's still early for them.  Mid-tier FA's are spot fillers, so being onboard with it is basically being on board with kicking the can down the road by gap filling with JAG Vets mostly who won't be difference makers in any real way, but still, that is perhaps better (now, in our current state) that big money guys, admittedly.

I judge on record, not subjective "progress".  Some of our fans think 2021 was a huge success because of all the "progress", and I just can't agree.  Real progress means real results.  Fan optimism "progress" is mostly what we've seen so far, where fans THINK we're making progress, but there is not tangible progress to point to, and in objective results we're as bad (at QB, on Defense) as we have literally ever been in our history.

If we win 8 games this year, that's progress.  If we win 5, but aw shucks some guys showed "flashes", thats same old same old IMO.  And three offseasons/four seasons in, IMO, that just isn't good enough.  

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I guess this is one spot where we disagree.  You could leave a guy in place for 20+ years, if he's the wrong guy, you're never going to win.  So I don't see it as "blood for blood sake", I see it as error correction.  I'd arge your concept is "consistency for consistency sake" as opposed to because ongoing investment was earned.  I.e. You probably hired the wrong guy, and he isn't working or producing tangible results, so no point continuing to re-invest in that sunk cost just to claim "look, we're consistent" when the entire set of available alternate options surely has someone better or worth getting their shot to produce.  

TLDR:  We don't suck because we didn't give Macc enough time.  Or Bowles enough time.  Or Gase enough time.  They earned their firing, giving someone else their shot was the right call.....although the Johnsons poor hiring record is a problem too. 

Going off of Jets history, we've been firing coaches and coordinators forever, and it never works.  I'm not into the argument that we just consistently "hired the wrong guy."  Brian Schottenheimer was an idiot and a fool who didn't know what a first down was when he coached here, and then he was the coordinator of a top offense when he went from Sanchez to Wilson.  Something tells me he didn't just learn to coach overnight.  Todd Bowles was a moron and many racially charged things and then he was calling a Super Bowl winning defense, and me thinks, will be head-coaching a playoff team.  My point isn't about being consistent, it's about getting better players... plain and simple, because, in my view, that's what matters.

Agreed we didn't need to give Macc more time, but that was because he did a verifiably bad job.  In free agency, he signed mega deals for which he got no return, and over his time period, he lead the league in drafted players who weren't on NFL rosters.  He also completely ignored the offensive line, as if it didn't even exist.  The Jets record was also bad as a result, but it was clear Macc had no plan and no execution, and he should have been gone sooner.

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

The modern NFL doesn't require five years to rebuild.  It just doesn't.  So sure, previous GM's were poor, but that only buys so many years in a league where 20-30% of the roster turns over every single year, and we had very few long-term lodestones around our neck when JD arrived.  This wasn't post-Parcells worn-out-Vets cap hell, after all.

Yes, a great draft in a few days, that shows actual on-field dividends eary, is surely a step in the right direction.  We can agree to disagree on how great the 2021 draft class is/was so far, I tend to think it's quite over-rated by our fans, but/shurg, it's still early for them.  Mid-tier FA's are spot fillers, so being onboard with it is basically being on board with kicking the can down the road by gap filling with JAG Vets mostly who won't be difference makers in any real way, but still, that is perhaps better (now, in our current state) that big money guys, admittedly.

You can certainly rebuild faster, but it's not actually all that common.  The Bengals are the sexy example but I'd say it's hard to emulate having the #1 overall pick when a true Franchise QB is on the board and then having that QB look great, but get hurt in his rookie season so that you still get a high pick the following year when a true franchise #1 WR is available is the model the Jets, or anyone else can follow.  Still, if Zach Wilson was, or does become, as good as Joe Burrow, the Jets rebuild is almost done.  Sadly, there was no Joe Burrow to draft last year, at least not available to us.  So, we're not so lucky.  Even if we had that, the 2019 Jets had a roster that had 4, maybe 5, NFL caliber starters on it (seriously, go look).  You need 22.  That's going to time.  The most realistic path for us to make a meaningful jump forward this offseason was Deshaun Watson.  Feelings are mixed here, but I guess I'm okay with passing on that, even if he wasn't indictable.

What you call kicking the can, I call acknowledging the reality that we can't fix all of these problems at once, making stepwise improvement, and not, as you say adding the big money guys (who are here to cash retirement checks).

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I judge on record, not subjective "progress".  Some of our fans think 2021 was a huge success because of all the "progress", and I just can't agree.  Real progress means real results.  Fan optimism "progress" is mostly what we've seen so far, where fans THINK we're making progress, but there is not tangible progress to point to, and in objective results we're as bad (at QB, on Defense) as we have literally ever been in our history.

If we win 8 games this year, that's progress.  If we win 5, but aw shucks some guys showed "flashes", thats same old same old IMO.  And three offseasons/four seasons in, IMO, that just isn't good enough.  

Only one point on judging on record, in Gase's second season, when the Jets had their historic 6-2 FINISH!!!! (RIP @SAR I).  Did you feel the team was now on the right track?  They did, in fact, show they were taking a step forward, in the eyes of the record.

I agree we're as bad as we've ever been on defense, but I'm not sweating that today.  Defenses can be built with relative ease in my view, and I suspect our defense will look different going forward.  We lost no meaningful 2020 contributors, and added a few solid players.  Every mock draft has us taking an EDGE or the top CB available at 4.

As for QB, of course, here we are.  Did Zach Wilson suck last year, absolutely yes.  Is Zach Wilson going to suck this year, and going forward?  Probably.  But, if we put a good team around him, and he's the weak link, am I okay with this staff having the opportunity to replace him.  Yeah, I guess I am.

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41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Going off of Jets history, we've been firing coaches and coordinators forever, and it never works.

Every ~5 years if they don't show out over that period, yes. 

I think 5 years/seasons is more than enough to know if a guy is the guy or not the guy.

41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

I'm not into the argument that we just consistently "hired the wrong guy."  Brian Schottenheimer was an idiot and a fool who didn't know what a first down was when he coached here, and then he was the coordinator of a top offense when he went from Sanchez to Wilson.  Something tells me he didn't just learn to coach overnight.

He didn't.  Had had flashes of decent here, but mostly not.  Then he was horrible in St. Loius.  And he's been pretty good (in scoring if not in yards gained) in Seattle.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/SchoBr0.htm

Not sure this is the example you were thinking it was.  I don't feel any longing for Brian Shotty, nor do I feel like we missed out on some stud OC here.

41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Todd Bowles was a moron and many racially charged things and then he was calling a Super Bowl winning defense, and me thinks, will be head-coaching a playoff team.  My point isn't about being consistent, it's about getting better players... plain and simple, because, in my view, that's what matters.

He was a great DCo and a poor HCo.  We'll see if all the many years back being a DCo has made him any better a HCo, but that's purely TBD.

Again tho, which of these two (Shotty or Bowles) are you longing for to have back to prove your point here?  You think we're great today if we had retained these two?  That their firings were unjustified?

41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

What you call kicking the can, I call acknowledging the reality that we can't fix all of these problems at once, making stepwise improvement, and not, as you say adding the big money guys (who are here to cash retirement checks).

You can try and address all roster problems in three years. 

Over that time, you (as an average NFL team) will have turned over ~75-90% of your roster.

41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Only one point on judging on record, in Gase's second season, when the Jets had their historic 6-2 FINISH!!!! (RIP @SAR I).

:D

41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Did you feel the team was now on the right track?  They did, in fact, show they were taking a step forward, in the eyes of the record.

No, I didn't.  At no time from the announcement of his hiring to the day he was fired did I feel or believe that Gase was on the right track.  Worst hire in my memory, worse even IMO than the hated Kotite.  Every minute he was here was a minute more than he deserved.

To be clear, I do not in any way feel that way about either JD or Saleh, despite how disappointing both have been to-date IMO.

41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

I agree we're as bad as we've ever been on defense, but I'm not sweating that today.

Respectfully, you don't seem to be sweating much if anything.  You appear to very calmly and rationally be on the "whenever the get to winning, that's cool, like man" trip.  Quite Zen, if you will.

41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Defenses can be built with relative ease in my view, and I suspect our defense will look different going forward.

One would certainly hope so.

41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

We lost no meaningful 2020 contributors, and added a few solid players.  Every mock draft has us taking an EDGE or the top CB available at 4.

Did we have any meaningful contributors in 2020, lol?  But yes, agreed on both points.

41 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

As for QB, of course, here we are.  Did Zach Wilson suck last year, absolutely yes.  Is Zach Wilson going to suck this year, and going forward?  Probably.  But, if we put a good team around him, and he's the weak link, am I okay with this staff having the opportunity to replace him.  Yeah, I guess I am.

In fairness, that has been my view as well.  I do not "believe" in Zach Wilson, Stud Franchise QB.  So I want to surround him with every possible opportunity and weapon, so he has every single possible chance to prove me wrong.

And if he doesn't, at least the next lottery ticket will have a decent team around him when he arrives.

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