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Center vs. Tackle


Phillyjet
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9 minutes ago, slats said:

Don’t draft any OL until round three, at the earliest. Thanks. 

if Tyler Smith can be had in the 2nd, I'd go there, especially if there is a trade back for more picks. 

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Abraham Lucas round 3, Zach Tom round 4 is the perfect OL draft for the Jets in my opinion. In general a day three center would be great, though I’d take Linderbaum if he slips to the second.

Matt Waletzko and Braxton Jones are interesting day three tackles, Kellen Diesch too although I don’t know if he’s a tackle.

Team building wise someone like Tom, Dylan Parham, or Cole Strange who’s got positional versatility is valuable in a different way than Linderbaum. Jason Poe would be a fun late round dart throw too, add him and find a place for him to play.

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18 minutes ago, slats said:

Don’t draft any OL until round three, at the earliest. Thanks. 

I’m anti ol in the first, but if linderbaum is there at 38 I’d be tempted. McGovern is expensive and linderbaum would be a great fit for this offense. 
 

KT

London

Dax Hill

Linderbaum 

with the first 4 picks would make me very happy 

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22 minutes ago, Dcat said:

if Tyler Smith can be had in the 2nd, I'd go there, especially if there is a trade back for more picks. 

I think Tyler Smith goes in the first… we’ll see.  He’s rising. 

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17 minutes ago, derp said:

Abraham Lucas round 3, Zach Tom round 4 is the perfect OL draft for the Jets in my opinion. In general a day three center would be great, though I’d take Linderbaum if he slips to the second.

Matt Waletzko and Braxton Jones are interesting day three tackles, Kellen Diesch too although I don’t know if he’s a tackle.

Team building wise someone like Tom, Dylan Parham, or Cole Strange who’s got positional versatility is valuable in a different way than Linderbaum. Jason Poe would be a fun late round dart throw too, add him and find a place for him to play.

Forgot about Zach Tom… another good one.

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3 minutes ago, Phillyjet said:

Forgot about Zach Tom… another good one.

I think he’s perfect for the Jets, I’m more attached to the idea of him than I should be for a random day three prospect. Great athlete, smart, position versatility - I think he’d make an outstanding outside zone center.

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47 minutes ago, slats said:

Don’t draft any OL until round three, at the earliest. Thanks. 

rather have a pro bowl OL than a bust at a position of greater need

bad things happen when teams reach for need 

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Center is 100% the position we will look to upgrade. Just like a lot of us, Douglas saw how McGovern handled Zach getting smacked around and he didn't like it.

 

If we trade down to 19 or 20 I fully expect Zion Johnson and Tyler Linderbaum to be in play.

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11 minutes ago, bitonti said:

rather have a pro bowl OL than a bust at a position of greater need

bad things happen when teams reach for need 

Bad things happen when you pass on players who can help you win today for players only marginally better (if that, we don’t really know) rather than grab players who would actually fill one of their many vacancies. 

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Nice post.  We need to be careful when discussing offensive lineman since we now run the zone scheme.  There are a ton of gap scheme players and they do not fit us at all. 

At Center both Linderbaum and Jergens  are excellent fits and either are a significant upgrade in the never ending battle to get better AND younger.  Cole Strange is also an excellent fit.  Both Jergens and Strange would need a year in the strength program before they would be ready  to take over.  Our lads is bullish on both of them for zone schemes.  Neither Fortner nor West are fits for us.  Lindstrom is interesting and a good fit.  However, the scouting report warns that he bends too much at the waist, not enough at the knees and there isn't enough athleticism or size to make up for it.  But they love his preparation and think he is ready right now.  They also think he is all he will ever be - no upside.  Worth a very late round pick as a flyer.  But that is it.  The other guys do not fit our scheme.  I believe the lack of instant help is why we resigned Dan Feeney (that and his three fine starts at the end of last year which made me forget his horrible play in preseason). 

At Tackle, you hit the nail on the head.  The later round guys - for the most part - do not offer help this season or are a poor fit.  Neil and Ekwonu might turn our to be guards for us.  All-pro guards, but Guards nonetheless.  Cross is a perfect fit and is the likely pick if Hutch and Thibs are gone.  Penning is a good fit too.  He "Can reach defenders laterally and do damage in the running game" - that's what we need but they warn that "there is a possibility that his best fit is inside"..  Raimann?  Not ready but is a decent fit.   Smith?  Not ready and belongs in a gap scheme.  Abe Lucas?  A starring right tackle with pass blocking skills.  Faalele?  A gap scheme guy who needs to lose weight.  Petit Friere?  Ideal fit and he is ready for either side.  But he had a hard time with the elite edges in college (he abused the non-elite guys).  Mitchell?  A good fit who needs a year in the program - not ready.  Rasheed Walker?  Perhaps the best guy in the draft but his bad habits must go.  He needs a year in the program to unlearn what  he has learned.  But everything measures and his talent is undeniable.  But that is it for help this year at tackle.  Be there or be square.  I would be amazed is any of the above fits remain on the board at pick 111.   Only Cross, Petit Friere and perhaps Penning can help us right now.  Yipe.  

The Guard class is a disaster for us.  Green?  A gap scheme.  Johnson?  A gap scheme even at Center.  Kinnard?  Rhyan?  Salyer?  Gap schemes.   The only fits are Marquis Hayes and Ed Ingram.  But both need a year in the program.  Look for them in the 4th.  I believe the lack of instant help is why we signed Tomlinson.  

Those of you who do not want early round offensive lineman need to take a more critical look at the incoming class.   We play zone.     

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2 minutes ago, clayton163v said:

Nice post.  We need to be careful when discussing offensive lineman since we now run the zone scheme.  There are a ton of gap scheme players and they do not fit us at all. 

At Center both Linderbaum and Jergens  are excellent fits and either are a significant upgrade in the never ending battle to get better AND younger.  Cole Strange is also an excellent fit.  Both Jergens and Strange would need a year in the strength program before they would be ready  to take over.  Our lads is bullish on both of them for zone schemes.  Neither Fortner nor West are fits for us.  Lindstrom is interesting and a good fit.  However, the scouting report warns that he bends too much at the waist, not enough at the knees and there isn't enough athleticism or size to make up for it.  But they love his preparation and think he is ready right now.  They also think he is all he will ever be - no upside.  Worth a very late round pick as a flyer.  But that is it.  The other guys do not fit our scheme.  I believe the lack of instant help is why we resigned Dan Feeney (that and his three fine starts at the end of last year which made me forget his horrible play in preseason). 

At Tackle, you hit the nail on the head.  The later round guys - for the most part - do not offer help this season or are a poor fit.  Neil and Ekwonu might turn our to be guards for us.  All-pro guards, but Guards nonetheless.  Cross is a perfect fit and is the likely pick if Hutch and Thibs are gone.  Penning is a good fit too.  He "Can reach defenders laterally and do damage in the running game" - that's what we need but they warn that "there is a possibility that his best fit is inside"..  Raimann?  Not ready but is a decent fit.   Smith?  Not ready and belongs in a gap scheme.  Abe Lucas?  A starring right tackle with pass blocking skills.  Faalele?  A gap scheme guy who needs to lose weight.  Petit Friere?  Ideal fit and he is ready for either side.  But he had a hard time with the elite edges in college (he abused the non-elite guys).  Mitchell?  A good fit who needs a year in the program - not ready.  Rasheed Walker?  Perhaps the best guy in the draft but his bad habits must go.  He needs a year in the program to unlearn what  he has learned.  But everything measures and his talent is undeniable.  But that is it for help this year at tackle.  Be there or be square.  I would be amazed is any of the above fits remain on the board at pick 111.   Only Cross, Petit Friere and perhaps Penning can help us right now.  Yipe.  

The Guard class is a disaster for us.  Green?  A gap scheme.  Johnson?  A gap scheme even at Center.  Kinnard?  Rhyan?  Salyer?  Gap schemes.   The only fits are Marquis Hayes and Ed Ingram.  But both need a year in the program.  Look for them in the 4th.  I believe the lack of instant help is why we signed Tomlinson.  

Those of you who do not want early round offensive lineman need to take a more critical look at the incoming class.   We play zone.     

Excellent post; Strange is another intriguing prospect.  You can sense the depth in all of these posts. What do you think about Tom?  

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47 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Center is 100% the position we will look to upgrade. Just like a lot of us, Douglas saw how McGovern handled Zach getting smacked around and he didn't like it.

 

If we trade down to 19 or 20 I fully expect Zion Johnson and Tyler Linderbaum to be in play.

Linderbaum please

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1 minute ago, Dwight Englewood said:

Linderbaum please

I'd be pumped if we got him but I could understand if they like Johnson more. Linderbaum is incredibly light for an NFL Center and Zion has positional flexibility plus we were able to coach him at the Senior Bowl

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Just now, bla bla bla said:

I'd be pumped if we got him but I could understand if they like Johnson more. Linderbaum is incredibly light for an NFL Center and Zion has positional flexibility plus we were able to coach him at the Senior Bowl

Linderbaum is the same size as Kevin Mawae.  

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1 hour ago, BurntDice said:

I’m anti ol in the first, but if linderbaum is there at 38 I’d be tempted. McGovern is expensive and linderbaum would be a great fit for this offense. 
 

KT

London

Dax Hill

Linderbaum 

with the first 4 picks would make me very happy 

Also, you could just keep McGovern for 1 last year, let Linderbaum learn and be ready to take over, either due to injury this year or just start as of next year.

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2 hours ago, the Claw said:

I think Jergens will last to at least the third, I can’t see him going as high as the second, but who knows. He’d be a great pick in the fourth, as well as Lindstrom- I tend to like BC linemen.

 

I still can’t see a first round Tackle being taken. Not again. Second round is where I imagine them targeting a tackle. Tyler Smith should get a good look at 35. (I’m hoping a trade down happens at four that gets them another pick in the 38-45 range and they take Quay Walker)

 

They should take one OC and one OT.

BC fan here and while Lidstrom was a great player at BC I have a hard time seeing him as a starter in the pros, hes just so limited athletically, especially in a zone stytem.

Jurgens on the other hand may make it to the 3rd but I cannot imagine he will be available after that. Not only does he fit great in a zone system but he apparently had the nasty demeanor that JD has been referencing.  If we get him in the 3rd it would be a great pick as a guy to sit for a year behind McGovern and take over in 2023 while providing good depth insurance for this season.

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20 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

I'd be pumped if we got him but I could understand if they like Johnson more. Linderbaum is incredibly light for an NFL Center and Zion has positional flexibility plus we were able to coach him at the Senior Bowl

Increasingly unlikely Johnson drops to ROUND 2 because of his positional versatility 

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24 minutes ago, Phillyjet said:

Excellent post; Strange is another intriguing prospect.  You can sense the depth in all of these posts. What do you think about Tom?  

Intelligent and athletic.  He needs to get far stronger in his lower half.  He needs a year in the program or he would get his head handed to him.  Potential starter down the road.    Late round pick.  I would rather train Jergens or Strange. 

A word on Linderbaum who I did not go into detail.  Some say he is too small.  While that is true it only matters to gap scheme teams.  He is perfecct for a  zone scheme and is an instant starter.  I am a buyer at 35 or 38.

Due to the strength of the edge class, my ideal 4 & 10 are Thibs and Karlaftis.  While many bemoan the lack of high end talent in this draft, I now see six elite guys.  Thibs, Hutch, Ekwonu, Cross, Neal and Karlaftis.  The Ourlads review is identical to Hutch.  I drool.   

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3 hours ago, Phillyjet said:

Lots of discussion right now about the depth at tackle and the possibility of using a 1st round pick on a tackle (either Ekwonu at 4, or a Trevor Penning (who the Jets have been linked to) at 10.

Penning and Becton on the same line would be "Penning" and "Ton".

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2 hours ago, slats said:

Bad things happen when you pass on players who can help you win today for players only marginally better (if that, we don’t really know) rather than grab players who would actually fill one of their many vacancies. 

The famous example is the Portland trailblazers passing on Michael Jordan in the 1984 NBA draft because they already had Clyde Drexler. They picked Sam bowie because they needed a center 

Always take the best available prospect 

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2 hours ago, Phillyjet said:

I think Tyler Smith goes in the first… we’ll see.  He’s rising. 

He is not ready to start in the NFL.  Needs a lot of development.  Also will likely be penalty-prone given his mauling approach. No way shouold a team trade up into rd 1 for him, IMO.

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20 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The famous example is the Portland trailblazers passing on Michael Jordan in the 1984 NBA draft because they already had Clyde Drexler. They picked Sam bowie because they needed a center 

Always take the best available prospect 

Different kind of guard, there. The Michael Jordan of OL isn’t in this draft. 
 
I can make the BAP all day argument, too, but at a certain point you can’t keep drafting the same the position over and over again. If these guys are feeling any pressure at all, they will not be going OL in the first round. 

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1 hour ago, BCJet said:

BC fan here and while Lidstrom was a great player at BC I have a hard time seeing him as a starter in the pros, hes just so limited athletically, especially in a zone stytem.

Jurgens on the other hand may make it to the 3rd but I cannot imagine he will be available after that. Not only does he fit great in a zone system but he apparently had the nasty demeanor that JD has been referencing.  If we get him in the 3rd it would be a great pick as a guy to sit for a year behind McGovern and take over in 2023 while providing good depth insurance for this season.

Thank you for the insight. I certainly don’t watch every game so I tend to look at certain games and reels to get a feel for players. I’m kind of surprised you don’t think he’d be good in a zone scheme. He seemed to move pretty well if not a little bit stiff. I will definitely take your insights over mine, though. Still, I like BC linemen. 
 

I would definitely prefer Jurgens in the third, but I think they’d fill other holes there. He’d be a sweet pickup though.

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27 minutes ago, slats said:

at a certain point you can’t keep drafting the same the position over and over again. 

The Jets have drafted exactly 3 linemen since jd arrived, and one of them was cam Clark. Avt was their best player on offense. Why not turn an average unit into a dominant one? Average doesn't move the needle 

 

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1 hour ago, bitonti said:

The Jets have drafted exactly 3 linemen since jd arrived, and one of them was cam Clark. Avt was their best player on offense. Why not turn an average unit into a dominant one? Average doesn't move the needle 

 

They’ve drafted two in the first round two years in a row, that’s more than just about any team in the league, already. This super group concept doesn’t move the needle, either, unless you mean towards more losses this season. The OL is just fine, what they really need is playmakers to block for - or a defense that can get off the field. It’s a team game, not my OL vs. your OL. Spending high picks to marginally improve the OL does nothing but take assets away from where they’re actually needed. WR, Edge, S, RB, LB, CB, TE, etc. Draft a developmental OL or two from the third round back (starting OL will be found in the third round this year, for sure). 
 
If they need insurance at RT, guys like Reiff, Fisher, and Shell (and plenty of others) are all still available in free agency. It’s not a position to spend a high pick on this year. 

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2 hours ago, Dcat said:

He is not ready to start in the NFL.  Needs a lot of development.  Also will likely be penalty-prone given his mauling approach. No way shouold a team trade up into rd 1 for him, IMO.

Fully agree… we can only hope he gets over drafted, but I think it’s a real possibility. 

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The funny thing is, the Jets 3rd string line are a Who's Who of hyped up college lineman who've done nothing other than fill the bottom of rosters since being drafted.  Why do I know Ross Pierschbacher or Dru Samia's names other than they were guys that were supposed to be something, sometime?  Why can't these guys ever start 'filling out' after a few years in the system and suddenly become HoF'ers?  We need that lucky hit for once, and it can't all rest on a 40 year old achilles this time.

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