Pauline- conflicted over Thibo

[slimjasi]

10 minutes ago, genot said:

Because of the competition. It prepares you for playing at the next level. The proof is the amount of defensive players drafted into the NFL,from Alabama compared to Oregon. 

Sure. But not everyone can go to Alabama. Oregon gets to occasionally get a big prospect, too - otherwise, what’s the point? So does every big prospect who turns down an Alabama/Clemson/Georgia/LSU/OSU for an Oregon have “red flags” ? lol. The argument is silly.

 

as a larger point, I don’t think an 18 year old’s decision about where he wanted to go to college should warrant “character concerns” from random dorks on the internet 
 

[Scoop24]

8 minutes ago, genot said:

Ah. But he wasn't a superstar at Oregon. His production was mediocre. What does that tell us. Either he isn't the football player he's cracked up to be. Or, football is just a way to get his foot in door, regarding other ventures. I'm not saying this as fact. All I'm saying is that drafting him at the top of the 1st rd, is too risky.For a number of reasons.

He was more productive then Aiden, Walker, and JJ ..   hell Aiden and jj both didn’t break out until there senior years. In JJ case it took him switching to his 3rd college team for him finally break out. KT had 9 sacks out of high school. 

[65 Toss Power Trap]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You’re right, but then you also remember that Lawrence Taylor, Ray Lewis, Randy Moss, Dan Marino, Warren Sapp, Michael Irvin, James Harrison, Cam Newton, Micah Parsons, Aqib Talib, Frank Clark, Dez Bryant, and our own Mark Gastineau had character concerns, too, which complicates the analysis.  The Jets famously passed on Marino and Sapp due largely to such concerns.  

On the other end of the spectrum there were also concerns on draft day that D’Brickashaw Ferguson had too many other interests (like playing the saxophone) and lacked the drive to succeed.  

Thus, whenever a super talented player comes along with character concerns, front offices have to dig VERY deep on whether it’s concerns that can be lived with, and whether the infrastructure is in place (coaching, veteran players, behavioral counseling, etc) to keep a player in check should their issues bubble to the surface.  

Its not a good idea to blanket pass on character concern players as if all of them are going to be the next Aaron Hernandez, Justin Blackmon or Pac-Man Jones. Because you’ll end up watching other teams win SBs with character concern guys and wonder where things went wrong.  Every successful NFL team of all time has had at least 1-2 sociopaths on them. 

Good points. I think players having other interests is good. You get a well-rounded, or at least a passionate person. As for branding, can you imaging if Deon Sanders was coming playing in todays NFL: he would be all about branding, but he would still be a speed demon and a lock down corner.

[genot]

3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Sure. But not everyone can go to Alabama. Oregon gets to occasionally get a big prospect, too - otherwise, what’s the point? So does every big prospect who turns down an Alabama/Clemson/Georgia/LSU/OSU for an Oregon have “red flags” ? lol. The argument is silly.

 

as a larger point, I don’t think an 18 year old’s decision about where he wanted to go to college should warrant “character concerns” from random dorks on the internet 
 

I wasn't looking at that in isolation. All of this has to do about how high he should be drafted. I just raised that, because of questions raised about his commitment to football. 

[genot]

3 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

He was more productive then Aiden, Walker, and JJ ..   hell Aiden and jj both didn’t break out until there senior years. In JJ case it took him switching to his 3rd college team for him finally break out. KT had 9 sacks out of high school. 

Then he had 3 sacks and 7 sacks. What have you done for me lately. That's mediocre production considering he was the star of the show at Oregon.

[Scoop24]

3 minutes ago, genot said:

Then he had 3 sacks and 7 sacks. What have you done for me lately. That's mediocre production considering he was the star of the show at Oregon.

Pandemic year and played last year on high ankle sprain could of shut it down but played through  most season anyway...  although he did miss 3 games. He got more sacks in 3 years than all those guys have in 4.. 

[genot]

5 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

Pandemic year and played last year on high ankle sprain could of shut it down but played through  most season anyway...  although he did miss 3 games. He got more sacks in 3 years than all those guys have in 4.. 

Well they're are reasons for that. At this point, to you and everybody.

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, 65 Toss Power Trap said:

Good points. I think players having other interests is good. You get a well-rounded, or at least a passionate person. As for branding, can you imaging if Deon Sanders was coming playing in todays NFL: he would be all about branding, but he would still be a speed demon and a lock down corner.

It’s a delicate balance.  You need a few guys (but not too many, or you end up like the Marvin Lewis Bengals) on your team who play the game with reckless abandonment.  Those guys used to be mostly on defense.  Think Jack Tatum.  But with the rules changes, you find more of those guys on offense these days.  Then, you need to balance those types with a bunch of high character guys.  
 

In terms of locker room balance, the “problem children” likely tend to hang out with each other, but need the high character guys to step in when needed.

It always interests me to hear/read about MLB locker rooms.  The guys who decided to forego college and were drafted out of High School tend to be “baseball lifers”.  They eat, sleep, and drink baseball their entire lives, or at least did so from youth to the pros.  The college kids tend to be a little more “well rounded” and have more interests.  And the HS guys tend to hang out together, with the college guys doing the same.  
 

I imagine NFL locker rooms have a similar type of dynamic.  

[Jetsfan80]

34 minutes ago, genot said:

You can't draft a guy that high, who you don't feel is entirely committed to football. Look at Wilkerson. He could have been a great player. Just was lazy, and didn't put the work in

It’s just not that simple.  Look at Brick.  Scouts were concerned he had too many interests outside of football, but we took him at 4 anyways.  That seemed to work out.  

[65 Toss Power Trap]

49 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It’s a delicate balance.  You need a few guys (but not too many, or you end up like the Marvin Lewis Bengals) on your team who play the game with reckless abandonment.  Those guys used to be mostly on defense.  Think Jack Tatum.  But with the rules changes, you find more of those guys on offense these days.  Then, you need to balance those types with a bunch of high character guys.  
 

In terms of locker room balance, the “problem children” likely tend to hang out with each other, but need the high character guys to step in when needed.

It always interests me to hear/read about MLB locker rooms.  The guys who decided to forego college and were drafted out of High School tend to be “baseball lifers”.  They eat, sleep, and drink baseball their entire lives, or at least did so from youth to the pros.  The college kids tend to be a little more “well rounded” and have more interests.  And the HS guys tend to hang out together, with the college guys doing the same.  
 

I imagine NFL locker rooms have a similar type of dynamic.  

You just brought to my mind: Troy Aikman was frustrated the last half of his career, in heavy part, because he thought the coaches after Jimmie Johnson (Barry Switzer, in particular) did not maintain the locker room and discipline. Guys were partying too much (Dallas Cowboys of the 90s, imagine that) and not being held to account in practice and on the field.

Coaches and team culture can also help handle passionate personalities. You're right when you talk about balancing the less-disciplined guys with high character guys. Saleh seems to have a personality that can demand accountability without going nuts on a player who is still developing his maturity.

Whether or not Jets are building a long-time winner, the culture overall seems pretty football focused right now.

 

[Jdub03]

I'm not concerned about players having other interests outside of football, and more concerned about what that player does during practice and on game day.  He seems intelligent, and "if" he's using the game for its off the field benefits, then it behooves him to perform on the field to further develop those aspirations. Also, loving football and having aspirations outside of football aren't mutually exclusive, you can be/have both.

Now if he's not committed to giving his best efforts to improve YOY, then that is a true issue. We simply don't have the insights into his true character.  We'll need to trust the team did there due diligence.

[Jetsfan80]

54 minutes ago, 65 Toss Power Trap said:

You just brought to my mind: Troy Aikman was frustrated the last half of his career, in heavy part, because he thought the coaches after Jimmie Johnson (Barry Switzer, in particular) did not maintain the locker room and discipline. Guys were partying too much (Dallas Cowboys of the 90s, imagine that) and not being held to account in practice and on the field.

Coaches and team culture can also help handle passionate personalities. You're right when you talk about balancing the less-disciplined guys with high character guys. Saleh seems to have a personality that can demand accountability without going nuts on a player who is still developing his maturity.

Whether or not Jets are building a long-time winner, the culture overall seems pretty football focused right now.

 

Yup.  Those kinds of teams have a quick, but high peak and then a big fall.  Think Rex Ryan Jets, except we didn’t get any division titles or championships of any kind to celebrate.  

[docdhc]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You’re right, but then you also remember that Lawrence Taylor, Ray Lewis, Randy Moss, Dan Marino, Warren Sapp, Michael Irvin, James Harrison, Cam Newton, Micah Parsons, Aqib Talib, Frank Clark, Dez Bryant, and our own Mark Gastineau had character concerns, too, which complicates the analysis.  The Jets famously passed on Marino and Sapp due largely to such concerns.  

On the other end of the spectrum there were also concerns on draft day that D’Brickashaw Ferguson had too many other interests (like playing the saxophone) and lacked the drive to succeed.  

Thus, whenever a super talented player comes along with character concerns, front offices have to dig VERY deep on whether it’s concerns that can be lived with, and whether the infrastructure is in place (coaching, veteran players, behavioral counseling, etc) to keep a player in check should their issues bubble to the surface.  

Its not a good idea to blanket pass on character concern players as if all of them are going to be the next Aaron Hernandez, Justin Blackmon or Pac-Man Jones. Because you’ll end up watching other teams win SBs with character concern guys and wonder where things went wrong.  Every successful NFL team of all time has had at least 1-2 sociopaths on them. 

Don’t forget O.J.!  He turned out to have a character concern or two. 

[Larz]

6 hours ago, genot said:

You can't draft a guy that high, who you don't feel is entirely committed to football. Look at Wilkerson. He could have been a great player. Just was lazy, and didn't put the work in

Lol wut?

he’s smart, not lazy. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, docdhc said:

Don’t forget O.J.!  He turned out to have a character concern or two. 

What a glaring omission on my part.  OJ fits that list like a glove.

[FidelioJet]

If Thib is there the Jets are taking him.  He won't be.

[Barton]

There's no doubt Thibs has a great 1st step.  Bend is decent too. 

But the film also doesnt lie. His motor is not very good. 

Strikes me as a guy who at best has a mario williams/leonard williams like career with 1 or 2 really great years (so he gets a big 2nd contract) and then just ehh for the rest. 

[ElBarrioJets]

7 hours ago, genot said:

If you have ambitions to play in the NFL,and get challenged getting there. Alabama is the school to sign with. How many good defensive players has Oregon developed. 

Lol a sh*t ton. Plenty of guys have busted from Alabama too.

This take doesn't make sense. NFL players can't all go to Alabama.

[The Crusher]

8 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You’re right, but then you also remember that Lawrence Taylor, Ray Lewis, Randy Moss, Dan Marino, Warren Sapp, Michael Irvin, James Harrison, Cam Newton, Micah Parsons, Aqib Talib, Frank Clark, Dez Bryant, and our own Mark Gastineau had character concerns, too, which complicates the analysis.  The Jets famously passed on Marino and Sapp due largely to such concerns.  

On the other end of the spectrum there were also concerns on draft day that D’Brickashaw Ferguson had too many other interests (like playing the saxophone) and lacked the drive to succeed.  

Thus, whenever a super talented player comes along with character concerns, front offices have to dig VERY deep on whether it’s concerns that can be lived with, and whether the infrastructure is in place (coaching, veteran players, behavioral counseling, etc) to keep a player in check should their issues bubble to the surface.  

Its not a good idea to blanket pass on character concern players as if all of them are going to be the next Aaron Hernandez, Justin Blackmon or Pac-Man Jones. Because you’ll end up watching other teams win SBs with character concern guys and wonder where things went wrong.  Every successful NFL team of all time has had at least 1-2 sociopaths on them. 

Brick played the sax. Sweet!

[More Cowbell]

9 hours ago, hmhertz said:

What are the Jets going to do with their two picks?

As far as the Jets are concerned, while chatter grows that Ikem Ekwonu could be the pick at No. 4, those in the league feel the Jets will go defense early and take a pass rusher with their first pick.

Word I’m getting, whether it’s the Jets or other teams in the top 10, is the coaches love Kayvon Thibodeaux, but front office personnel have a lot of concerns. This makes perfect sense and is something I’ve spoken about often in the past, including on that New York Post podcast. The coaches see the film on Thibodeaux, see the potential, and feel they can coach the best out of him. Front office people see the red flags and want to back off.

[More Cowbell]

8 hours ago, slimjasi said:

this 

 

and the thing with thibs to me is - what are his “red flags,” exactly?

it’s not like he failed a drug test. Marino was into the snow.  Every player is different. 

The biggest thing was taking plays off. 

[BCJet]

8 hours ago, slimjasi said:

I still can’t help but feel that the character stuff with thibs is largely overblown.

he was the consensus top pick in November and then Hutchinson had 3 sacks and 15 QB pressures in one game, thibs gave some awkward interviews, and now he’s the 5th worst pass rusher in the draft.

 

I don’t buy it. Meanwhile, he has the quickest first step in the draft and has the athletic profile to be a very good NFL pass rusher. 

Dont forget that Justin Herbert wasnt a leader and Penei Sewell wasnt a competitor because he sat out a year. 

Does anyone on this board know what Von Miller does in the off season because I sure dont and clearly it hasnt mattered in his career.  Of course every fan/coach/GM would want their players working out in a cabin in the woods like JJ Watt but its not the reality.

If a player has a legit character concern as far as drugs, bad friends, un-coachable, etc those are real issues in an NFL locker room.  If a player is supremely talented and plays hard (the motor concerns are really odd since he plays the run very well) then does it really matter if he does a commercial in his spare time?

[IndianaJet]

9 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You’re right, but then you also remember that Lawrence Taylor, Ray Lewis, Randy Moss, Dan Marino, Warren Sapp, Michael Irvin, James Harrison, Cam Newton, Micah Parsons, Aqib Talib, Frank Clark, Dez Bryant, and our own Mark Gastineau had character concerns, too, which complicates the analysis.  The Jets famously passed on Marino and Sapp due largely to such concerns.  

On the other end of the spectrum there were also concerns on draft day that D’Brickashaw Ferguson had too many other interests (like playing the saxophone) and lacked the drive to succeed.  

Thus, whenever a super talented player comes along with character concerns, front offices have to dig VERY deep on whether it’s concerns that can be lived with, and whether the infrastructure is in place (coaching, veteran players, behavioral counseling, etc) to keep a player in check should their issues bubble to the surface.  

Its not a good idea to blanket pass on character concern players as if all of them are going to be the next Aaron Hernandez, Justin Blackmon or Pac-Man Jones. Because you’ll end up watching other teams win SBs with character concern guys and wonder where things went wrong.  Every successful NFL team of all time has had at least 1-2 sociopaths on them. 

I think there is a difference between character concerns and the desire to be great.

All of the guys you listed had huge character concerns, but they all wanted to be great at football.  From what I understand about KT, his "character" concern isn't that he's running with a bunch of criminals, doing drugs, or likes to party that much.  His "character" concern is a question of whether or not he has the desire and motivation to put in all the hard work that is necessary to become great.

I'm not making a judgement on the guy....I have no idea of knowing, one way or the other...but I think that this is what the huge concern for JD and the FO is.

[section314]

15 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

I think there is a difference between character concerns and the desire to be great.

All of the guys you listed had huge character concerns, but they all wanted to be great at football.  From what I understand about KT, his "character" concern isn't that he's running with a bunch of criminals, doing drugs, or likes to party that much.  His "character" concern is a question of whether or not he has the desire and motivation to put in all the hard work that is necessary to become great.

I'm not making a judgement on the guy....I have no idea of knowing, one way or the other...but I think that this is what the huge concern for JD and the FO is.

Great summary. Along those lines, if I were an NFL GM and was doing an interview with a guy at the combine or at the facility, a very early question would be...." what would you choose to do with your life if you could pick anything?"  If the answer wasn't either " be a great player in the NFL" or" you mean after I finish a 12-15 year NFL career?", I'd have some serious issues.

[bla bla bla]

9 hours ago, Scoop24 said:

Alot players go to Oregon for this reason its the best recruiting advantage they have.. . They have some of best facilities in the Country.. there called Nike U for a reason.

Perhaps but vocalizing you prioritize a corporate career in Nike over wining Championships is going to rub people the wrong way. 

Thibs may be the most talented Edge in this class but I don't see him as that much better than the other 4. I hope he's taken before us.

[T0mShane]

32 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

I think there is a difference between character concerns and the desire to be great.

All of the guys you listed had huge character concerns, but they all wanted to be great at football.  From what I understand about KT, his "character" concern isn't that he's running with a bunch of criminals, doing drugs, or likes to party that much.  His "character" concern is a question of whether or not he has the desire and motivation to put in all the hard work that is necessary to become great.

I'm not making a judgement on the guy....I have no idea of knowing, one way or the other...but I think that this is what the huge concern for JD and the FO is.

The hardest question to answer with these prospects is how they’re going to respond in the weeks and months after you slide a check for $20 million dollars across the table to them. They’re all programmed to say the right things in the interview process, so hearing anything outside of those rote answers has to be terrifying for GMs. 

[Bowles Movement]

There are risks to Thibs and just about every player in the draft.   The job of each team is to analyze and quantitate that risk the best they can and assess it in light of the players perceived upside including  ceiling and floor.  Its called risk benefit ratio and it comes into play in nearly every important business decision.  

In the case of Thibs I think the potential upside merits the risk.

[Dunnie]

The hardest question to answer with these prospects is how they’re going to respond in the weeks and months after you slide a check for $20 million dollars across the table to them. They’re all programmed to say the right things in the interview process, so hearing anything outside of those rote answers has to be terrifying for GMs. 

I hate to agree with Jamal ... but you really do need dogs. Guys that love to play at any cost. Think Lawrence Taylor, Jerry Rice, Earl Campbell, Tom Brady, Emmit Smith ... guys that exist to play this damn game.

Super hard to determine... I agree.

[Scoop24]

11 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The hardest question to answer with these prospects is how they’re going to respond in the weeks and months after you slide a check for $20 million dollars across the table to them. They’re all programmed to say the right things in the interview process, so hearing anything outside of those rote answers has to be terrifying for GMs. 

alot of these athletes are already millionaires thanks to the NIL.. 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Scoop24 said:

alot of these athletes are already millionaires thanks to the NIL.. 

i would imagine Thibodeaux was set for life the second he signed on the line with Phil Knight

[long time suffering Jets f]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

The biggest thing was taking plays off. 

I’m getting the sense he’s Clowney 2.0. There will be times where he dominates and times where he’s non existent. He’s still a top 10 pick in my eyes but  taking him at 4 may be a bit of a reach.
 

[Scoop24]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

i would imagine Thibodeaux was set for life the second he signed on the line with Phil Knight

That’s usually how it works when you sign with nike .. that being said all the college players are going to highest bidder the transfer portal and recruiting scene has been wild this year. 

[Embrace the Suck]

It's JDs choice in the end, but when you draft a guy at 4 there shouldn't be any red flags or worries of any sort at all. If there are questions about him at this point it isn't because of rumors as he's had a couple years of time to establish who he is on and off the field.

[Bowles Movement]

18 minutes ago, Embrace the Suck said:

It's JDs choice in the end, but when you draft a guy at 4 there shouldn't be any red flags or worries of any sort at all. If there are questions about him at this point it isn't because of rumors as he's had a couple years of time to establish who he is on and off the field.

We drafted a guy at 2 last year that had red flags and concerns.   They were evaluated and deemed not significant vs the upside of getting a franchise QB.  

 
The draft this year has a lot of talent but also some questions with every prospect.   There is no escaping it.   Even Sauce has a reputation for being “grabby” and there are concerns he might get penalized more in the NFL - and he is considered a clean prospect.  
 

Douglas hopefully proves his scouting acumen in this draft.

[BettyBoop]

12 hours ago, T0mShane said:

If this is the case, Douglas should ask Saleh and Ulbrich to point out all of the players with character concerns that were turned around by their magnificent coaching. 

I bet Gaze could turn anyone around!