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Peter King mocks Sauce and J Williams to Jets


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Just now, derp said:

In this scenario, the edges they pass on at 10 are the same as the edges they pass on at 4.

Which seems absurd. 

I don't see the Jets passing on edge twice at 4 and 10. 

This draft is top heavy at edge and it's either the biggest or second biggest need on the team. 

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12 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I am sorry but no one is going to convince me that taking a CB at #4 overall makes any sense for this team.

Well, its simple, it only makes sense if you are in a position where you decide to take BAP over position of need. OR where your valuation, as a GM, of a player as BAP trumps the current positional need. 

So while YOU may not think it makes any sense. JD might think, this guy, apart from Ekwonu and Hutch (who are off the board), could be the best player in this draft. So even if he doesn't address a need. JD may want to take him at 4, deciding to address Edge and WR and other positions at another point and time in the draft. 

There is nothing wrong with that.  

Hall is a solid player but he is FAR from a playmaker and he is at best a #2. So far that is what he has shown to be. He is not a shut-down CB. Echols, Carter III, Guidry. All promising young players. None have proven to be anything special. Sauce hasn't proven anything either- obviously. But he would come in as the most talented of the bunch, immediately. Even more so than DJ Reed- the newly added de facto #1 CB. The NFL is still a pass happy league but the rules have recently been tweaked to reel back some of the freedom WRs have to be physical. The Jets DO need to improve the pass rush. But if they end up having a dominant secondary AND their pass rush improves just marginally, this could make a big difference in the overall defense. Remember- lots of great pass rushers in this draft.    

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10 minutes ago, PepPep said:

The ONLY way NO would be willing to do that is if the ABSOLUTELY FELL IN LOVE WITH A QB. I just don't see that happening in THIS QB draft class. Who? Pickett? Corral? Ridder? Malik Willis maybe? I don't see it. NO does not have particularly great draft capital (apart from those 2 first rounders) to be moving up into the top 5 for a QB they don't think will be an absolute stud. 

Now, IF THEY DID. And the Jets ended up trading for Deebo using pick 10, that would be really interesting. JD would have to look at the board and figure out what positions OTHER than WR make the most sense to address based on the quality of player still available. I think a lot of top Edge players will be gone, he may end up taking one or more of Penning or Lloyd or Stingley or maybe even Jordan Davis.   

Well yes.  I agree.  But when you look at the trade NO made with Philly - there is truly no logical way to see that trade unless their plan was to trade up for a QB.  Otherwise it made no sense.

QB's are moving up boards - and if they have one they like - then you go get him.   Honestly, I think if the Jets want to trade out of 4 for #16 and #19 - it'll be there to do.

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14 minutes ago, Warfish said:

That is a bottom quarter of the league quality group as of right now.

I think you very much overestimate how good these guys are today.

I think you're undervaluing DJ Reed.  I don't believe Hall to be a #1 CB (which he played all last year) but as a #2 I think he's better than bottom quarter.

This wouldn't give up a top 2 CB room - but it will be more than sufficient to run this defense.  We need to stop the run and get to the QB.  And score points!

 

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11 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

You have a legit #1 CB in Reed, quality #2 in Hall...MC2 in the slot..

Not saying you can't always use more good players and injuries happen - but that's a big pick which will move Hall to a nickel corner.

I don’t think Hall moves to nickel in that scenario. Nickel is it’s own role, MCII stays there in my opinion. I’m not sure Hall’s guaranteed to start over Echols anyway.

I tend to agree with your conceptual thought on corners and I think the team does too, but it’s important to acknowledge they know how they want to run the defense and we don’t. It’s possible they want to have a guy who’s good enough to allow them to rotate coverage to the other side like Ramsey did in Jacksonville while Saleh was there.

And they do have to deal with Diggs who roasted them last year and Hill. If they take a corner it’s because they have a plan for it (which is something we couldn't know, they wouldn’t telegraph it) and he’s the best prospect (reasonable with Gardner, possibly the safest prospect in the draft).

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13 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

What I don't understand is the compulsion for taking an edge guy when there are no good edge guys for the taking.  Thibs is a potential bust, or third down player if anything.   If the other GM's see what I see, Thibs may fall out of the top ten.  And T. Walker is a five technique (end for a 34 defense)

The fans that love Sauce like him because he is a total football player and a high character core leader.  He is a complete pick in every respect.  

Because the way you win on defense in the NFL now is to get to the QB.  That's it.  So yes you might haver to roll the dice on someone like Thib (who is far more than a 3rd down player) 

Thib is going in the top 3.  There's just so much noise this time of year.

 

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I've been ultra high on Sauce during the times everyone just thought his name was cool. But I think the best value CB for the Jets is Trent McDuffie. He plays zone defense, off man well and is a great tackler which is what we picked up when we selected Reed. But a more realistic option is his teammates Klyer Gordon who can be had in the 2nd round or worse case scenario for him, top of the 3rd. 

As a big Sauce fan, those anticipating us selecting him will be very disappointed come draft day. Also Stingley name should be in the mix as well. This CB class should outshine this years WR class. I would prefer we go into the season with Bryce Hall being our 3rd CB.

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3 minutes ago, derp said:

I don’t think Hall moves to nickel in that scenario. Nickel is it’s own role, MCII stays there in my opinion. I’m not sure Hall’s guaranteed to start over Echols anyway.

I tend to agree with your conceptual thought on corners and I think the team does too, but it’s important to acknowledge they know how they want to run the defense and we don’t. It’s possible they want to have a guy who’s good enough to allow them to rotate coverage to the other side like Ramsey did in Jacksonville while Saleh was there.

And they do have to deal with Diggs who roasted them last year and Hill. If they take a corner it’s because they have a plan for it (which is something we couldn't know, they wouldn’t telegraph it) and he’s the best prospect (reasonable with Gardner, possibly the safest prospect in the draft).

Completely agree with the bolded.  If the Jets go with Gardner I'm sure they have their reasons.  

But, based on the information I have, which admittedly is limited to my experience as a long time fan, taking a CB this high over a pass rusher - understanding the Jets defense and their current assets - would be a bad choice. 

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9 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Which seems absurd. 

I don't see the Jets passing on edge twice at 4 and 10. 

This draft is top heavy at edge and it's either the biggest or second biggest need on the team. 

I think top heavy at edge is in the eye of the beholder. Thibodeaux is a polarizing guy largely ranked between 6 and 10 overall, they’ll want him or they won’t (though I could see them stopping his slide at 10). And Johnson is old with a low pass rush win rate and is ranked in the teens in a lot of spots.

He’s got Johnson as the fourth edge off the board at what, 23 while saying he doesn’t even think Arizona should take him there, and Karlaftis out of the first entirely? These guys have wider ranges than they get credit for on this site.

The actual draft always gets weirder than mocks. I guess he’s getting feedback or projecting that the receivers go early and often and the edges aren’t that liked by teams. I think in a deep edge class where there are a bunch of solid players but everyone has warts, a scenario like this where teams wait kind of makes sense. Different than WR which goes off a cliff after the first 8 or so. I’d expect that run on WR’s to happen a little later but the way he drew it up is at least feasible.

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9 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I think you're undervaluing DJ Reed.

And as usual, I think you're over-valued "our guys" as homers tend to do.

9 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I don't believe Hall to be a #1 CB (which he played all last year) but as a #2 I think he's better than bottom quarter.

Not yet he isn't.  I like him alot, and think he could grow into that, but today?  Lol, not yet.

9 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

This wouldn't give up a top 2 CB room - but it will be more than sufficient to run this defense.  We need to stop the run and get to the QB.  And score points!

Score Points > All Else, yes.

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2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Completely agree with the bolded.  If the Jets go with Gardner I'm sure they have their reasons.  

But, based on the information I have, which admittedly is limited to my experience as a long time fan, taking a CB this high over a pass rusher - understanding the Jets defense and their current assets - would be a bad choice. 

Very fair. That’s my conceptual understanding as well but I do think there’s more of a path to them explaining Gardner in the post R1 presser in a way that makes me nod than say OL for example. 

And I do potentially expect some twists for a team I think will largely stick to their board. The big question is how positional value of corner in their scheme impacts how they’ll weight a corner like Gardner, and I think only they know because there are compelling arguments both ways.

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1 hour ago, jbt said:

we can't take a WR who wont play until later in the year.  this team needs to show something early on or Joe D is gone

and I love Sauce but we need an edge, that will help the defense more

 

I don't think Joe D is on the hot seat, even if the team gets off to a slow start.

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9 minutes ago, LAD_Brooklyn said:

I've been ultra high on Sauce during the times everyone just thought his name was cool. But I think the best value CB for the Jets is Trent McDuffie. He plays zone defense, off man well and is a great tackler which is what we picked up when we selected Reed. But a more realistic option is his teammates Klyer Gordon who can be had in the 2nd round or worse case scenario for him, top of the 3rd. 

As a big Sauce fan, those anticipating us selecting him will be very disappointed come draft day. Also Stingley name should be in the mix as well. This CB class should outshine this years WR class. I would prefer we go into the season with Bryce Hall being our 3rd CB.

McDuffie is nice but I think if they want him they’d need to take him at ten. Booth from Clemson strikes me as an interesting day two guy.

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

And as usual, I think you're over-valued "our guys" as homers tend to do.

If you get your way - Unfortunately I think you'll find out rather quickly that I'm not remotely a homer...

When Gardner is getting beat left and right because no one (no matter how good) can cover WR's when QB's have all day to throw.

I will be rather vocal at my displeasure :-)

 

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To pick Ikey or Sauce at 4, which is not unlikely given that they could be the best remaining players, the Jets are basically picking for 2023. Both players are not likely to move the needle that much, and the Sauce pick would make the Reed signing curious.  But then again, Bryce Hall is only under contract two more years.  

In some ways the second first round pick this year is a “bonus” pick.  The Jets need to walk away with at least 1 top quality, Day 1 starter.   Sauce could do that, and so could Ikey (if the Jets move on from either Fant or Becton).  If they have that impact player, they could roll the dice on a J Williams or K Thib at 10, and hopefully JJ and/or Karlaftis will be at 10 as well.  Or they can take Wilson or Burks there too.

I think Burks ends up a good pro. 

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An interesting example of why I’d rather trade 10 for a WR than 35+48+69. Guys available after this first round include Malik Willis (trade down potential), George Karlaftis, Daxton Hill, and Nakobe Dean. Plus guys like Andrew Booth, Boye Mafe, Perrion Winfrey, Jaquan Brisker. Really solid players are going to go around those picks.

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we can't take a WR who wont play until later in the year.  this team needs to show something early on or Joe D is gone
and I love Sauce but we need an edge, that will help the defense more
 

pretty funny really “ team needs to show something early or jd is gone” - no actually not true - not that you would know unless your last name is johnson - will everyone be disappointed with a slow start? yes - will some of us be more patient than others? also yes - but douglas doesn’t have to be worried about a slow start getting him fired - sheesh - where do you get your sports acumen - the onion?


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jets need playmakers on both sides of the ball-edge rusher and wr should be the picks 
drafting a defensive back round one is criminal for a team with the glaring needs the jets have. Edge rusher > DB-better to stop the qb before the throws it than after he throws it
 

if thibs is there at 4 he’s the pick - the question is if he’s gone does douglas take highest rated player left on the board - probably gardner? or draft for need and take best edge left? gonna be interesting
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2 hours ago, jbt said:

we can't take a WR who wont play until later in the year.  this team needs to show something early on or Joe D is gone

and I love Sauce but we need an edge, that will help the defense more

 

Depends on how much time he's projected to miss.  I've seen some say he would miss 8 games and that was before we found out his rehab is ahead of schedule.  If he's going to miss five or six games, who cares?  Plenty on the roster now and to be added via draft to compete before he's healthy.

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Well, its simple, it only makes sense if you are in a position where you decide to take BAP over position of need. OR where your valuation, as a GM, of a player as BAP trumps the current positional need. 
So while YOU may not think it makes any sense. JD might think, this guy, apart from Ekwonu and Hutch (who are off the board), could be the best player in this draft. So even if he doesn't address a need. JD may want to take him at 4, deciding to address Edge and WR and other positions at another point and time in the draft. 
There is nothing wrong with that.  
Hall is a solid player but he is FAR from a playmaker and he is at best a #2. So far that is what he has shown to be. He is not a shut-down CB. Echols, Carter III, Guidry. All promising young players. None have proven to be anything special. Sauce hasn't proven anything either- obviously. But he would come in as the most talented of the bunch, immediately. Even more so than DJ Reed- the newly added de facto #1 CB. The NFL is still a pass happy league but the rules have recently been tweaked to reel back some of the freedom WRs have to be physical. The Jets DO need to improve the pass rush. But if they end up having a dominant secondary AND their pass rush improves just marginally, this could make a big difference in the overall defense. Remember- lots of great pass rushers in this draft.    

agreed and thanks for this sensible and informed response - too little of this on this board these days


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2 minutes ago, ncjetman said:


pretty funny really “ team needs to show something early or jd is gone” - no actually not true - not that you would know unless your last name is johnson - will everyone be disappointed with a slow start? yes - will some of us be more patient than others? also yes - but douglas doesn’t have to be worried about a slow start getting him fired - sheesh - where do you get your sports acumen - the onion?


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Patient isn't the right word. Most of the folks who get labeled as "impatient" here have been "patient" for multiple decades.

Tolerant is the right word.  You're not being patient, you're just being tolerant of losing.

The intolerant of losing would want change.  The tolerant of losing wouldn't.  

And just as you say "not that you would know unless your last name is johnson" neither do YOU know that "douglas doesn’t have to be worried about a slow start getting him fired".  At least try and be logically consistent within your own post, lol.

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18 minutes ago, derp said:

I don’t think Hall moves to nickel in that scenario. Nickel is it’s own role, MCII stays there in my opinion. I’m not sure Hall’s guaranteed to start over Echols anyway.

I tend to agree with your conceptual thought on corners and I think the team does too, but it’s important to acknowledge they know how they want to run the defense and we don’t. It’s possible they want to have a guy who’s good enough to allow them to rotate coverage to the other side like Ramsey did in Jacksonville while Saleh was there.

And they do have to deal with Diggs who roasted them last year and Hill. If they take a corner it’s because they have a plan for it (which is something we couldn't know, they wouldn’t telegraph it) and he’s the best prospect (reasonable with Gardner, possibly the safest prospect in the draft).

I feel the same way.

A Sauce pick = BAP + Saleh knows how he will use him. I actually think Hall could be a coverage FS-type. Especially on pass downs. So you would have Sauce, DJ on the outside, then Carter III in the slot/Nickel, then Hall as a coverage FS with Whitehead as the box/SS. That is a scary secondary. 

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1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

I strongly favor my favorite edge over Sauce at 4. 

I strongly favor my 4th favorite edge over sauce. I don't get it. Saleh's scheme needs to get to the QB. Sauce is great and all, don't misunderstand me, but it doesn't place a premium on CB play. This guy woild be here for one contract cycle and then gone. Hutch, JJ, Thibs, Travon. Get one.

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2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

I don't understand the fascination with CB's and Jet fans.

 

 

They like the illusion somehow a defense is going to stop a superior passing attack as opposed to outscore it. Have had legion examples that you need to score points in bunches, Jets fans pretend they can buck the industry trend despite sucking forever doing so. 

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4 minutes ago, RVAJet815 said:

I strongly favor my 4th favorite edge over sauce. I don't get it. Saleh's scheme needs to get to the QB. Sauce is great and all, don't misunderstand me, but it doesn't place a premium on CB play. This guy woild be here for one contract cycle and then gone. Hutch, JJ, Thibs, Travon. Get one.

How about a"scheme" that involves scoring 4-6 TDs every week? Is that crazy talk? NFL teams who win playoff games don't typically win 13-10. Think an edge helps keep the other team honest, and decent DBs are great. But if you cannot score, no point to any of it. 

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24 minutes ago, ncjetman said:


agreed and thanks for this sensible and informed response - too little of this on this board these days


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"Dominant secondary"; what does that really mean? The NFL defenses that shut out primo QBs don't really exist. Rams started a safety who was in street clothes at Christmas. 

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23 minutes ago, PepPep said:

I feel the same way.

A Sauce pick = BAP + Saleh knows how he will use him. I actually think Hall could be a coverage FS-type. Especially on pass downs. So you would have Sauce, DJ on the outside, then Carter III in the slot/Nickel, then Hall as a coverage FS with Whitehead as the box/SS. That is a scary secondary. 

So the Bills and Chiefs Score only 5 TDs instead of 6. Oh, my! Very scary indeed. Keep fighting the last war. 

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13 minutes ago, Bugg said:

How about a"scheme" that involves scoring 4-6 TDs every week? Is that crazy talk? NFL teams who win playoff games don't typically win 13-10. Think an edge helps keep the other team honest, and decent DBs are great. But if you cannot score, no point to any of it. 

They need edge and WR. Get one with 4, one with 10. Pretty simple. No WR in this draft worth taking at 4. 

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